Soft- vs. Metal- reserve ripcord ?

[BMFin 0]

I know there are other threads about this subject, but I just wanted to make a poll to see your opinions in a diagram.

Please do not choose your alternative only because you have one, but because you have a reason you prefer one.

Im about to order my harness, but can´t make up my mind about the handle.

[PhreeZone 15]

Until you've had a chop or reserve ride... or until you get more then your profile says you have... stick with the metal handle. You can retrofit the ripcord at any time so you might as well just stick to what you know until you get comfortable with the container and how it fits and moves.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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[TattooedMoFo 0]

Soft handles has been adopted more by FreeFlyers, but you must be comforable to handle a mal as S/H are a lillte more difficult to grab and use opposed to metal.

[sunshine 2]

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Until you've had a chop or reserve ride... stick with the metal handle.

Thats exactly the way i always felt about it. I wanted to be sure i could handle pulling the reserve before i went with a pillow. I had a lot of people tell me i was dangerous for jumping with a metal handle since i'm a freeflyer. In fact someone said i was rude because i told them until i had a mal, i was sticking with silver. I had my first mal about a month ago, and now that i know i can handle it, i'll be getting a soft handle on my next repack.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[councilman24 36]

This isn't the first time soft RC handles have been tried. The newer versions with a metal handle wrapped in padded fabric are better. But, in the 80's everybody thought that for tubes, rodeo dives, Mr. Bill's and other "contact" dives soft handles would be safer. But they never caught on. While the consequences of an accidental pull at 200 mph may be worse, I'm not convenced of the need. Pulling a soft handle with gloves, cold hands, right hand, etc. may be tougher. The ability to hook the handle is advantage in many instances. Make sure that you practice alot with getting the soft handle out of the pocket and pulled. I recommend leaving a temporary pin in or reclosing the rig and practicing a full tension pull several times. Are soft handles solving a non-existant problem? at the cost of ease of function?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[rigging65 0]

If a metal handle is supperior, why doesn't everyone have one for their cutaway? Same comment/question for soft handles?

Both have advantages and disadvantages. Learn the facts about each, make an adult, informed decision and get the proper training on either set.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[skygod7777 0]

i have a soft reserve handle, but i still kinda like the metal ones. i like the ones that vector and sunpath offer, it's like a low profile metal handle. you can only get your thumb through it. i like it a lot, i may order one and put it in my rig.

edit: both are safe, and d owhat ya want, i would recomend a metal handle till ya have a cut away, then ya know kinda what to expect the next time it may happen, and having to deal with a little harder pull (to peal the velcro) won't be a big deal.

later



later

[billvon 2,478]

>If a metal handle is supperior, why doesn't everyone have one for their cutaway?

Because there is value in having two different "feels" for the two handles. A spinning mal can radically twist your harness, and in some situations (floppy shirt, badly spinning mal, canopy wrap) you may not be able to see your handles very well.

[TattooedMoFo 0]

>>If a metal handle is supperior, why doesn't everyone have one for their cutaway?<<
When it comes to F/F, when learning and going from 2 ways to larger groups their are hands and feet all over your container at various times during your jump (riser grabs on exit,docs in sitting, train exits etc) and it is a lot easier to get your feet or hands in a metal handle accidently and pull. A soft handle reduces this risk significantly. To me this is the main reason for opting to have a soft handle.

[Spinetto 0]

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A spinning mal can radically twist your harness,

I think this is a really important point. I talked with someone who had a spinning mal and his harness was twisted so far that the only way he could pull his reserve was to hook the very tip of a finger through the metal handle and pull. He swears that if his rig had a soft cushion he would not have been able to pull, especially with the altitude available and no time to mess around.

[faulknerwn 37]

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>>
A soft handle reduces this risk significantly. To me this is the main reason for opting to have a soft handle.

People tend to forget that there is another option. I won't ever have a soft reserve handle on my rig because they're more difficult to grab when your harness is twisted violently and such. See the above post for a reference to that.

What I use is the low-profile reserve handle. Its still a metal handle, I can still hook a thumb, but its way too small to hook a foot. It looks more like a tandem reserve handle than a typical reserve handle. I love them and wouldn't use anything else.

W

[rigging65 0]

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it is a lot easier to get your feet or hands in a metal handle accidently and pull

Very true, and certainly a good point...as is Bill's about the 'different feel' of handles.

My argument against the ease of 'snagging' a metal handle with just a finger is just that, it's easy to 'snag' it on a finger...or anything else for that matter.

As for the 'feel' of a handle: If your're not looking at the handles (or at least trying to) then you're doing something wrong. Trained properly, it doesn't matter how bad the spin is, you'll still try and look for the handles. Sight is probably the best way to confirm proper sequence.

Following the logic that the 'feel' of the handle is important, wouldn't the 'feel' of how it's attached (ie- inboard on the harness) also be a possible way to differentiate the two handles? Granted, a soft handle is not as tactile as a "D" ring, but it also doesn't have the snag characteristics that a "D" does. 6 of one, half dozen of another? Maybe...

One needs to remember that you're constantly playing the odds with skydiving anyway. My preference is to guard a little more heavily against snagging, given there is good training (and good currency) with emergency procedures.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[wmw999 2,181]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=141612#141612

Here's a link to another discussion, where Bill Booth was involved. It made sense to me.
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[faulknerwn 37]

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As for the 'feel' of a handle: If your're not looking at the handles (or at least trying to) then you're doing something wrong. Trained properly, it doesn't matter how bad the spin is, you'll still try and look for the handles. Sight is probably the best way to confirm proper sequence.

What do you do if you can't see it? I was on a CRW jump about 5 years ago, had a wrap, couldn't see my reserve handle (we were about ~7000 feet). Chopped anyway because I needed to chop then - and went back into freefall. Had absolutely no visual on my handle. In retrospect I think it was because the altimeter had slid over and hid it from view and groping at the general area I couldn't find it. What I did was put my hand on the 3-ring, which I could see, slide my hand down the harness webbing until I got to metal. I never was able to see it. I was VERY happy my handle was metal.

About 7 years ago I had a spinning mal on my Jonathan. My harness stretched so far out because of the spin - I literally was almost at full arm extension to grab my reserve handle - that was before the days of pillow reserve handles and I think it would have been an awful lot harder to pull it if it hadn't been metal.

That's why I go with the best of both worlds - the smaller reserve handle - still able to get a thumb in it, but WAY smaller than the regular d-rings.

[rigging65 0]

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couldn't see my reserve handle

Which is why I said "the best way to confirm proper sequence." What you did, you did by training and because you understood the necessary sequence, not because of the handle type you had.

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I never was able to see it. I was VERY happy my handle was metal.

Why? What did it being metal have to do with anything? You said you felt down the MLW to the handle. You obviously knew which MLW to move down, and found the big lump sticking out of it, so why does it matter what that lump is made of? You couldn't see it, so you used another (good) way to find it.

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About 7 years ago I had a spinning mal on my Jonathan. My harness stretched so far out because of the spin - I literally was almost at full arm extension to grab my reserve handle - that was before the days of pillow reserve handles and I think it would have been an awful lot harder to pull it if it hadn't been metal.

Read Bill Booths last post here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=141612#141612 In a nut shell, it says that his test showed it doesn't matter what type handle was used, grip strength and the ability to pull were not changed by the handle type.

I think there is a stigma against change (as this linked thread suggests). Someone said "Why fix it if it isn't broken?" and there is truth to that, but there is also truth to the idea of an evolutionary design (We'll keep this contained to mechanical design...I don't even want to touch the whole Creationism argument!!)

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[faulknerwn 37]

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***I never was able to see it. I was VERY happy my handle was metal.

Why? What did it being metal have to do with anything? You said you felt down the MLW to the handle. You obviously knew which MLW to move down, and found the big lump sticking out of it, so why does it matter what that lump is made of? You couldn't see it, so you used another (good) way to find it.
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Because I had absolutely no visibility on it. Trying to feel for a soft handle which you can't see at all amidst a sweatshirt and an altimeter - the metal handle is obvious - trying to separate out the sweatshirt and the lift webbing and the soft altimeter with no visibility would definitely have been harder. Seeing as how I was at 6k at the time I'm sure I could have done it. Had I been at 1k by that point? I doubt I could have.
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Read Bill Booths last post here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=141612#141612 In a nut shell, it says that his test showed it doesn't matter what type handle was used, grip strength and the ability to pull were not changed by the handle type.
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In my case it was because of the distance away I think I would have had more trouble with a soft pillow. I just managed to sneak a thumb in there. Long story erased, I ended up dangling from my main, by my RSL, which was hooked up on the left side. The lift webbing was distorted a solid 2 feet. It was arm extension away. And trying to grab a pillow from that distance would have been a lot harder. I agree with Booth that in normal circumstances, normal cutaways, both handles are equally easy. My circumstance wasn't "typical". Haven't had anything like that before or since. The handle was definitely far enough away that I couldn't have gotten a second hand on it, and I just think a pillow handle would have made life a lot more scary.
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but there is also truth to the idea of an evolutionary design (We'll keep this contained to mechanical design...I don't even want to touch the whole Creationism argument!!)

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True. I'm not against change. I just have had 2 very different experiences where I personally believe a pillow handle would have made my life a hell of a lot more difficult.

I can't remember who it was, but some big-wig in skydiving had a pillow reserve handle fold under and it ended up folded under underneath his armpit where he couldn't reach it. He says he would have died if he hadn't had an RSL on that jump.

I've never once had any of my small handles snagged or come out in freefall, and I've had 2 distinct circumstances where a pillow handle would have made life more difficult for me. I'm not willing to make the switch without good evidence that it will help me more than it will hurt me. And I just haven't seen that in my personal experience.

Heck - the only handle I've ever personally seen prematurely released in freefall (other than the main) was someone's cutaway accidently pulled. They can happen on any type of handle.

[AndyMan 7]

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Both have advantages and disadvantages. Learn the facts about each, make an adult, informed decision and get the proper training on either set.

Has anyone ever done any quantitative analysis on the benefits of a soft reserve handle? Is it proven to be less hazardous in freeflying?

I ask only because while listening to a jumper get chewed out for not having one by a skygod, it occurred to me that among the jumpers I know, the idea that having one is a no-brainer is essentially rote knowledge. It seems like nobody really can explain WHY one is more snag-resistant then the others, the implication is always that it should be abundantly clear, and anybody who questions their value is obviously not as smart as the rest.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,478]

>I can't remember who it was, but some big-wig in skydiving had a
> pillow reserve handle fold under and it ended up folded under
> underneath his armpit where he couldn't reach it. He says he would
> have died if he hadn't had an RSL on that jump.

Rick Horn. A good argument for both metal reserve handles and RSL's.

[Hooknswoop 19]

The different feel argument has merit.

Which type of handles to have is a personal decision and should be based on but not limited to: comfort with the choice, type of gear you jump, type of skydives you make, experience(s) with malfunctions and cutaways, and uniformity between rigs.

I do think that is grip is a concern, then the cutaway handle should be the metal "D" ring and the reserve handle should be the pillow. By the FAR's the reserve handle shouldn't be harder to pull than 28 lbs. (22 lbs. pull force max + 6 lbs. seal thread max). The cutaway handle can be significantly higher than that. The "D" ring allows for a solid, two-handed grip, and the pillow does not.

The malfunction where the jumper's reserve pillow was tucked under his arm (Rick Horn, I think, someone correct me if I am wrong), could have happened with a metal reserve handle, and would probably been easy to find once he had cutaway and the harness wasn't under a load anymore. This is pure speculation on my part and can easily be completely wrong.

Whatever decision you do make, soft/metal, base it on hard evidence and arguments that make sense. Be comfortable with that decision. This is the true value of these forums, you can read differing opinions, listen to the explanations as to why people feel the way they do, then make a more informed decision for yourself.

I use pillows for both handles on both my rigs, all of them are black. Not the best safety move on my part, but I've never looked at my handles in 13 cutaways. Not recommending that either

Hook

[rigging65 0]

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I can't remember who it was, but some big-wig in skydiving had a pillow reserve handle fold under and it ended up folded under underneath his armpit where he couldn't reach it. He says he would have died if he hadn't had an RSL on that jump.

Ok, but if the pillow is made properly, with some sort of re-inforcement to keep it standing out (as most all soft handles are now) that issue should be sorted.

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I'm not willing to make the switch without good evidence that it will help me more than it will hurt me. And I just haven't seen that in my personal experience.

And that is a very sensible position to take, given what you've seen in your career.

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Heck - the only handle I've ever personally seen prematurely released in freefall (other than the main) was someone's cutaway accidently pulled. They can happen on any type of handle.

Well, than you're much luckier than I. I've personally put two floating "D" rings back into their pockets in freefall. Both on other people's rigs. Both rigs were very well maintained and did not have any velcro wear issues that would cause the handle to get kicked out. I've also had my own "D" (when I had one) get pinched out in the door as we jammed up an 8-way. I was able to get it back in before we left, but only just.

Not to mention the premature reserve deployment we had here a few years back. Freeflyer in Head-down gets his "D" snagged by the other guys camera lens and gets dumped out at 9K. Damaged the reserve and he ended up smacking in hard enough to break his pelvis in a few places (Ouch!). Now, I don't really hold this event very meaningful in this discussion because it could have been avoided (although this was a controlled contact with some excessive movement, not a full-out collision), but it still happened and would most likely have been avoided with a soft handle.

Like I said, personal frame of reference is a sound way to make decisions, but people (not aimed at anyone in particular!) should be more open to ideas of evolution and change.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[jerm 0]

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Read Bill Booths last post here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=141612#141612 In a nut shell, it says that his test showed it doesn't matter what type handle was used, grip strength and the ability to pull were not changed by the handle type.

Did you actually read that post? Perhaps i'm interpreting it differntly than you, but he seems to make an argument AGAINST soft reserve handles:

(emphases mine)

"However, I do think a pillow makes a better cutaway handle than a reserve handle, simply because, where the pillow is in a cutaway situation, is much different from where it is in a reserve pull situation. Think about it. In almost all situations where a cutaway is needed, you're hanging from your main risers, and your main lift web, where your cutaway pillow sits, is pulled up and away from your body, so your cutaway pillow is literally right in front of your nose. Now think of where your reserve handle is in a total malfunction. It's down below your armpit, tucked tightly against your body, maybe even UNDER the webbing, and more than a little bit hard to see, especially if you're wearing a full face helmet. Now think how much a reserve pillow handle feels like your harness, or a fold in your jumpsuit, especially if you're wearing gloves. Now picture yourself low, out of time, and in desperate need of a reserve handle that you can't see or feel.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[ladyskydiver 0]

I have a metal reserve handle. When I had my mal and cut-a-way, I liked having the handle that I could put my thumb through and pull and was really glad to have had it.

However, there are others at my DZ that have the soft reserve handle and prefer that type.

I would say it's a matter of personal preference and comfort level - if you have a mal, which will work better for you? Good luck in your choice. Plus, if you get the metal and decide later that you would prefer the soft or vice versa, I'm sure your rigger could switch the handles for you.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I would say it's a matter of personal preference and comfort level - if you have a mal, which will work better for you? "

Think about snagging risks during climbout if you are a rear floater or cameraflier. What works best for you might kill everyone else in the plane.

That said, these events are pretty rare and your more likely to need reserve in freefall, but I would urge people to think about things.
cya
D

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[ojf1982 0]

I know of someone personally who was on a 2 way headdown dive (both fliers are awesome freeflyers who both have AD), during a transition to another dock, my friend accidently pulled the D-ring of the other flyer and deployed his reserve. He land fine and unconscious. The Reserve a PD, sustained no damage.

Lesson learned: get a soft reserve handle for freeflying.

The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

[PhreeZone 15]

>Lesson learned: get a soft reserve handle for freeflying.

This should be... Lesson learned: Don't take harness grips while skydiving.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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