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ianmdrennan

peregrine video

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Yeah, that photograph in page 2 of the thread speaks volumes.

I just don't see how anyone can look at that photograph and say that PD just happened to come up with a design that is essentially identical.



This is like when people figured out that the Katana and the Samurai were very similar in shape and design (minus the obvious airlocks). The truth finally came out after a little while and PD came clean...


that the Katana was a design evolution from a previous first generation design from Brian Germain they had purchased the rights to and developed. During the same time Germain continued to refrain his previous design and look what happened. Although I had never jumped a Sam with the comp lineset, I understand that it flew similarly to the Katana.

All black canopies out of black helicopters at night, secret developments...so the theories go.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Point of order: you posted hearsay. Someone told you that someone else did something that someone else had apparently told them they shouldn't have done. It's not cast iron.



I posted what someone had said that has first hand knowledge. Maybe I was not clear enough, but it is not hearsay.



That story you just posted? That's the definition of hearsay.

Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience.

You have no direct experience in the matter, you're just passing on third hand information.



Fair enough, let's put that aside.

Now, look at that photographic comparison that was posted earlier in the thread - what do you say to that?



To me, there are major differences in the two wings in that photo. The wing itself is differently shaped, different nose, different line attachments, different tail deflection, different end cells, different tail construction, etc

The only similarity I see is that they have a curved nose (different degrees of that it appears) and that they are a form of 9 cell. Having watched the two fly side by side in Klatovy, and Dubai they are also worlds apart in the way they fly too. Both very high performance of course, but definitely different.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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Now, look at that photographic comparison that was posted earlier in the thread - what do you say to that?



I say you should learn how to read. I listed some differences that you could easily see from the pics in a post upthread. The visual differences are not counting any of the things you can't see from the pics, like exact measurements, material specs and internal construction.

All restate this again, how different do you exepct two canopies in the same class to be?

How different is a Velo from a JVX or FX or Xoas 21?

How about a Pliot and a Sabre2? They're both 9 cell, semi-eilpitical, ZP canopies aimed at beginner to intermediate jumpers. Despite being virtually indentical in their physical description, as a posted stated above, the open and fly very differenly. Why is that? Because the things that you can't see, like the exact measurements, material specs, and itnernal construction are different, resulting in a very different wing.

Nobody is pointing at those canopies as being 'rip-offs' of each other, despite the fact that each factory has unlimited access to the other wing for inspection, jumps, and measuring. But in this case, because two parachute companies come up with similar designs when trying to build a canopy for the same purpose, suddenly it's a case of plagarism, and everyone accusing the largest parachute company on earth of not being able to develop their own wing. How does that make any sense?

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I wouldn't call a pilot and a sabre2 similar. not by its looks nor how they fly. They open differently, have a different recovery arc and the flare is not comparable. This is a whole different story than the PD/NZ Petra/Peregrine.



Incorrect.

Openings: Looking at Nick's video compared with my own experiences, they are different.

Recovery Arc: Hard to tell - both are definitely long "altitude wise" but optimal timing seems different. Can't say for sure as I've never jumped a Petra.

Flare: Very different from watching Nick and Curt to almost identical distance runs back to back.

I think it escapes most jumpers on how difficult it is to build a wing like this that is stable and performs as expected. The idea of looking at another design (photo, at a competition, etc) and "Copying it" is borderline laughable.

Personally I find it really sad that some people (Rhys aka "swoopin" that would be you that I am referring to) are turning something that is great for the sport as a whole (Peregrine and Petra and the advances they bring) into a misinformed pissing match.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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that the Katana was a design evolution from a previous first generation design from Brian Germain they had purchased the rights to and developed. During the same time Germain continued to refrain his previous design and look what happened. Although I had never jumped a Sam with the comp lineset, I understand that it flew similarly to the Katana.



Having jumped a KA120 and a Sam120 with the longer lineset, I would only put them in the same class. The Sam is a good canopy, but the Katana still has better performance (harness response, dive, flare).

Something that always makes me chuckle are the comments that the light front riser pressure of the Katana breeds bad habits. Possible. But one can also learn a lot about incorporating harness input into their turns on the Katana because it is so much more responsive.

Thank you PD for continuing this evolutionary process.

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Having jumped a KA120 and a Sam120 with the longer lineset, I would only put them in the same class. The Sam is a good canopy, but the Katana still has better performance (harness response, dive, flare).



Cool, guess it's sort of a moot point since the Sam isn't in production anymore and their numbers will dwindle. I say that, but you know that there is someone at a 182 DZ somewhere still toggle whip'n his Jonathan while flying a Vector 2.

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Thank you PD for continuing this evolutionary process.



Yup! They spend an incredible amount of time and money developing the cutting edge for the sport market.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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The samurai is still being made by Brian but only a few each year.

I think what most of us really want to know is, when will the Russians make a shitty copy for half the price and when can I get one.



No, most of us are wondering when the Russias will make another swoop video like they had a couple of years ago. Not just anyone can chow and rotate into the crowd off the pond!
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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The samurai is still being made by Brian but only a few each year.

I think what most of us really want to know is, when will the Russians make a shitty copy for half the price and when can I get one.



No, most of us are wondering when the Russias will make another swoop video like they had a couple of years ago. Not just anyone can chow and rotate into the crowd off the pond!



You can't just capture that much awesome in one video very many times in your life. At least not with the same people and the same lives.

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No, most of us are wondering when the Russias will make another swoop video like they had a couple of years ago. Not just anyone can chow and rotate into the crowd off the pond!


Russians are more interesting to see opening video of Peregrine, but only see Westerns bla-bla-bla here :)Or we will ask Mr.Putin buy whole PD for R@D purpose, grant PDFT russian passports and send them in Siberia for next swoop camp :D

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***
I think it escapes most jumpers on how difficult it is to build a wing like this that is stable and performs as expected. The idea of looking at another design (photo, at a competition, etc) and "Copying it" is borderline laughable.

Ian



For those who remember the 'summer of love' video series that chronicled the r&d phase that produced the Petra, do you really think PD skipped all of that just by looking at a Petra?

I think people assume that because both wings look similar to one another, but different from what's currently available, (they both have an elliptical leading edge and a straight trailing edge), someone must be copying. Thanks davelepka for pointing out multiple differences that I didn't notice just from one picture/angle.

At worst, they were intrigued by the planform and decided to experiment with it. Really though, do you believe PD has just been sitting on their ass since the velo came out waiting for someone else to give them an idea for a new canopy?

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What's going to happen when these people want to sell their peregrine?

I would assume that if you have bought rather than been given the canopy, you would be free to sell to who ever you choose?

Do PD plan to buy them back?

I imagine this will be the first canopy that has a higher used value than new!

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[Dr. House Voice]
No, you can't bring 3rd party references or common sense into a brand war! Duh .... When you do that the war fighters feel awkward and weird. Do you understand what you have done wrong?

Let me fix this up. Watch this:

Everybody knows that PD copy-cat the Petra design that looks similar with some speed-flying wings that no skydiver ever heard about, in an attempt to make lots and lots of money by opening it to a hand picked market .... wait .... that doesn't sound right let me try that again.

I'm sure that PD makes tons of money out of those swooping tournaments ... ohhhh .... hmmmmm ... alright 3rd time is a charm.

I'm sure that PD makes a lot more money from sport skydiving addicts who buy 2nd hand wings than from the stable military contracts, so the elite swooping team is just clever marketing for the money machine .... hmmmm damn it's hard for me to believe what I'm writing.

Please buy this and re-start the brand war .... it's about money and has always been with PD.

:)
[/Dr House Voice]

Or maybe it's about PD ego?
Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

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You make it sound as if the military side of the business is some how different to the sport side.
The military is just another customer, and if they didn't care for marketing and brand then they wouldn't be using the Factory Team to train their special forces guys, unless of course they have swoop comps in Iraq and Afgan.
It's all business, marketing and ego, like most things. PD just do it well.

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