Performance of Stiletto, Vengence, and Velocity???

[konradptr 0]

Just wondering what others can say about the Stiletto, Vengence, and Velocity. I've been jumping the Stiletto for a while, and wondering what the "natural" progression is from there in time. Also, how do these compare to the FX and VX, and is there anything that is on the drawing boards that is worth watching out for?

Thanks,
Peter

------------------------------------------
Getting banned isn't that bad......

[PhreeZone 15]

>there anything that is on the drawing boards that is worth watching out for?


Something is always on the drawing boards. Its been public knowledge of a few prototype canopies currently but it will be a lot of time before some reach market and others might never. As PD told me... don't hold off buying a canopy on what the future may hold... odds are you will be wanting something different when the future gets here.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Designer 0]

Good 1!

[Samurai136 0]

The natural progression is in that order. Although I went straight to a Samurai which is a far more aggressive high performance canopy than a Stiletto or Vengeance. FX, VX, Velocity, Xaos are all in the cross-braced low drag super-swooper class of canopy.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[ramon 0]

If you do a search in this forum you will find a ton about those canopies.

1. Vengeance has lighter riser pressure and a steeper glide than a stilleto. It has a higher aspect ratio and dives very hard. I consider it a good practice for an fX as it will train you to turn higher. They surf far and are easy to land slowly if the need arises. It opens briskly but softly (no snivel and wham or forever snivel, just a progressive opneing). They do tend to turn on opening as one side inflates before the other. I love mine (it is my big canopy at 1.7). By the way a vengeance can sneak up on you and plant you if you turn too low (i turn my big 135 at 350')

2. Samurais are good canopies but take some getting used to the deeper flair. They are capable of surfing as far as a vengeance but require a little more skill in wringing out the distance. They open ok but tend to be a little more squirrly than the vengeance. They are a very good canopy in the hands of a pilot that really knows them and they are capable of flat turns better than a vengeance. They have a flatter glide and med/light riser pressure but don't dive quite like a vengeance. They are capable of turning just as high, it just is easier to get really steep in a vengeance.

Velocity.....very nice. jump one of the others first and they will prepare you. It is un forgiving if you have a stilleto hook height really dialed in as a habit. they have hard riser pressure and demand accurate set up for your turn. they harness turn nicely and dive very hard. not a beginner canopy. If I were to buy abrand new canopy I would probably get one in place of my VX (which I love too)


P.S. I like a vengeance beter than a samurai, but you should definitely consider a competition cobalt as I feel it is ever so slightly superior (light riser pressure, flat glide, thin airfoil). unless you really want airlocks.


opinions are like assholes...

ramon

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[garywainwright 0]

http://www.pierltd.com/new/main/propage.cfm?part=554&cat=21&subc=50

This site reckons that the stiletto is more high performance than the vengeance (not what I've heard but I've never jumped the vengeance). If this link doesn't work go to pierltd.com FAQ on best selling canopies

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

Instagram gary_wainwright_uk

[Kirils 1]

I've jumped all 3. The Velocity is really a different bird, being crossed-braced. It is an ultra high performance canopy.

Comparing the Vengence to the Stiletto:
If the canopies are the same size the Vengence seems to fly bigger and is the lesser performer, but Vengence is more stable than the Stiletto and has more flare on landing. The Vengence is bulkier than the Stiletto but not that much harder to pack. Again, if you are flying the same size canopies, I think the Stiletto is the better performer.

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I jumped Stilettos for six years (107 and 97) before moving on to other things. I bought a Vengeance and didn't like it because (my opinion as a guy who actually owned both) I felt it dove like a Velocity, but only surfed as far as my old Stiletto. The reason I didn't go straight to a cross-brace was that I felt a fast diving canopy would be hazardous at our student-heavy dropzone. After jumping the Vengeance and not having any problems in traffic, I ditched it and bought a cross-brace (a VX), which I then later ditched due to quirky openings. I love my Cobalts (H-mod and comp versions), but jump a crossbrace about half the time nowadays.


Chuck

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

They have a flatter glide and med/light riser pressure but don't dive quite like a vengeance. They are capable of turning just as high, it just is easier to get really steep in a vengeance.

The Vengeance has a flatter glide than the Samurai. I've been in a bit of brakes next to a same sized and loaded Vengeance in full flight. When I went to full flight I left the Vengeance behind and a few hundred feet above me.

The glide of the Samurai is a bit flatter than the Jedei, but still steeper than the Stiletto (it's flatter than the FX and the Velocity by far).-BigAirSportz

Performance Characteristics of the PD Vengeance

I. Flying the Vengeance:
General Impressions:
The Vengeance is an easy canopy to like, if you are already familiar with the current elliptical
nine-cells. It is a noticeable step up in performance from a Stiletto, yet in some ways, it is easier
to fly and land.
Straight flight at full glide:
The Vengeance flies at very close to the same speed and glide angle as a Stiletto of the same
size. It is very common to see Stilettos in the field with brake lines set too short, however,
making it fly in slight brakes even when the toggles are all the way up. In this case, the Stiletto
would seem to have a slightly slower and more floaty glide. The Velocity glides much steeper
than both canopies -PD website

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[ramon 0]

Quote

a Samurai which is a far more aggressive high performance canopy than a Stiletto or Vengeance

puhleeze. I've jumped both at the same wing loading they are pretty damn similar. minor differences in toggle pressure, aspect ratio, and recovery arc (both have negative arcs). Samurai is zippier in the toggles and Vengeance is more divey in the front risers and has tighter brakes. that is about it which ever one swoops 5 feet further had a better approach or wind luck.

I don't need to cut and paste from PD and Brian to know the differences

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[Spy38W 0]

Quote

jump a crossbrace about half the time nowadays.

What kind?

--
Hook high, flare on time

[skreamer 1]

Pier ltd. propage

[Ron 7]

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Straight flight at full glide:
The Vengeance flies at very close to the same speed and glide angle as a Stiletto of the same size.

Way wrong.....The Vengence dives like hell compared to the Stiletto. I had around 1000 jumps on my Stiletto 107, and about 700 on a ST120 before I jumped a buddies Vengence. The very first thing I noticed is that it went from pilot chute to snivel rather quick, but stayed with the slider by the canopy for a long time....The slider then sort of jumped down the lines.

The second thing I noticed was that it dove like hell.
I had a hard time at first setting up for the landing due to the dive in regular flight.

It also dove alot more in the hook.

It did flare very well.

I jumped the Vengence for a while, then went back to the Stiletto. I think the Stiletto performs all around better.

The Velocity is a total different animal. I have a V96, and at first I hated it. The I started to really LOVE it. It takes 50-100 jumps to get really used to it. Now I fly it all the time, and my brand new ST107 sits in my other rig.

It opens great...a little bit twitchy. But slow. My old FX88 used to kill me opening so damn fast. I was scared of the Velocity because of this, but I have only had one hard opening on a buddes of mine. He sent it off for a line set and now its great. Toggles are not as responsive as a Stilettos, but the riser presure is less.

It takes ALOT of altitude to hook. But it can be landed straight in.

This is not a canopy for everyone. High Performance Canopies Malfuction at a higher rate, are much more violent when the do Mal, and lose ALOT more altitude when it happens. Small errors have the ability to KILL you.
Even at light wingloadings these are not for the inexperianced.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

Quote

jump a crossbrace about half the time nowadays.

What kind?

A Xaos 21 69.5 that a buddy can't jump anymore. I had an extra rig and he had an extra canopy, so we put the two together and I use it as my backup rig. I fly the piss out of it, but would never buy a 21 over a 27.

Chuck

[Zenister 0]

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recovery arc (both have negative arcs).

stupid noob question
negative recovery arc? not sure i understand this. does that mean it does not recover without applying toggle?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

does that mean it does not recover without applying toggle?

There is no such canopy. A canopy will ALWAYS recover, now some canopies may take damn near 1000' to recover on their own, where as something like a Stilleto has a very short recovery arc. Pulling a 180 front riser under 300' is very do able with a Stilleto, where as under something else (like a VX or a Velocity), you would probably come in contact with the ground rather quickly.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ron 7]

I dont have a clue what he is talking about....
A canopy will always recover. It might take alot of time....sometimes more time that you have altitude, but even when I was jumping a 69 it would recover.....from like 800 feet, but it would recover.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ramon 0]

Dave are you trolling

ok. a canopy has a certain angle of descent in full un bothered flight.

If you hook a stilleto very hard it will plane out at a shallower angle than the angle of descent (maybe even a flat glide or surf) this is called a positive recovery arc. (if the angle of descent is -10 below horizontal this may be -1 or 0 degrees)

Samurais and jedeis and vengeances do the opposite albeit only slightly. after a hard dive they recover to a slightly steeper mode of flight than full flight (this would be a slight dive). Usually a slight toggle bump is required to change the angle of attack on the canopy and change to direction to a flat glide or surf...(if the angle of descent is -10 below horizontal then maybe it recovers to a -11 or -12).

the purpose is that if you hook to high you do not plane out 10 ' above the ground, have the stilleto run out of speed then surge foward to the ground with little flare and hurt your ankles. A vengeance will slowly continue descent on it's own till you apply toggles to level out the surf.

that is all that is meant, and that phrase "negative recovery arc" is used by John Leblanc at PD and Brian Germain "Big Air Asports".

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[RichM 0]

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that is all that is meant, and that phrase "negative recovery arc" is used by John Leblanc at PD and Brian Germain "Big Air Asports".

Thanks armon - I didn't know that.

Rich M

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

negative recovery arc? not sure i understand this. does that mean it does not recover without applying toggle?

Visualize a full-flight glide path and a glide path with a period of front riser input. A canopy trimmed w/ negative recovery arc will continue, for a period of time, to dive steepr than full-flight after releasing front riser input. But less steep than w/ riser input.

A spectre is trimmed for a flat glide path and will plane out quickly after releasing front riser input. It does not have a negative recovery arc.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[greggfah 0]

I'll be honest... I've been reading a lot of these posts and it is flat out scary. If you have under a thousand jumps I think you guys really need to reevaluate your decision to go to a cross braced canopy. You can learn a tremendous amount on a Stiletto (Gate Accuracy, Carving, etc.). I truly believe that if you rush down in size that it will hurt you in the long run. Try and learn as much as you can on your stiletto.

I'm sure that alot of people will disagree with me on this forum, but we all have our opinions...

gregg

[garywainwright 0]

Totally agree!! I did 1400 on my stiletto before going to a X brace and never got bored.
Some of these posts scare me. Look at the profiles of some of the people who responded to 'whats your favourite hook turn'

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

Instagram gary_wainwright_uk

[Ron 7]

I would rather not look at the profiles...
Two reasons really:
1. It pisses me off to see people who really don't know squat about canopies flying something so small, and having no clue about them.

2. I don't want to know any more about them than I need... That way when they die, I won't be as affected. I don't want to say "yeah, I knew him. He was on to small of a canopy". Its much better to read the fatality report and think "Idiot".

It really does not amaze me that the # of fatalities does not go down. With AAD's and the quality of gear, the number of No Pull/Low Pulls has reduced. However the higher performance canopies have stepped right in and held us close to the same number.

Until these "Jet Jocky wanabees" learn to fly the canopy they have before they downsize, we will always have dead people under open canopies.

And they always bring out the stupid news people who just want to ask..."Why jump out of a perfectly good airplane?"
They make me want to puke.

Stupid people,
Fucking vultures.

See I get pissed,
Ron

Oh well you signed a waiver.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[base363 0]

I think it's important to look at the profiles! It amazes me to see how people with so little experience can make such prophetic observations as to how things work? The problem is that younger jumpers buy into these things because they sound good, then go out to the dz and try to emulate high speed landings or fly canopies that are way above their experience level. If someone is interested in learning how to fly a canopy, sitting behind a computer is just not the way to go about it. Then again, who's to say the profiles are all that accurate anyway?

[ramon 0]

You have 2,500 jumps, you jump in Deland and you do not have a clue about what a negative recovery arc is (which is the biggest difference between the vengeance and the stilleto). I watch a 3,000 jump skygod (aff instructor) toggle whip his cross braced canopy too low every weekend. Who am I to tell him.

The jump number vs canopy type/size thing has been going around and around here and there have been a lot of arguments already. Too bad there is no objective way to prevent these fatilites other than peer pressure.

Maybe you could post something constructive other than continuing the bitch session.

But what do I know at only 900 jumps.

bloo skies
ramon

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.