fronts vs toggle

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

Many at my DZ (experienced guys) don't believe in front riser approaches.
As I see it, using front risers adds energy to your motion, whereas toggle inputs first take away a lot of kynetic energy, but the resulting motion will increase the energy.
The more energy (speed), the more input range you will have in the flare.
So if going in on front risers, you'll have more margin to make up for eventual bad judgement, OK, if you really go too low, you'll bounce anyway.
Am I completely wrong here or not?
So what is the safest way to come in? Toggle or front riser, and why???
Just trying to get to a better understanding of what I'm doing, getting the feel of it isn't quite enough for me I guess
Will jump for beer, bs AiRpollUtiOn

[jdhill 0]

Quote

So what is the safest way to come in? Toggle or front riser, and why???

the safest way to come in is to fly a solid, pre-planned downwind/base/final approach, not using any control inputs to induce speed...
now if you are talking about the safest way to do high performance landings... it has been argued may times... my personal opinion is front risers for many of the reasons you mentioned...but there is soooo much more to it... riser v.toggle; carve v. hook; harness inputs, yada, yada, yada...
having said that, if you want to learn high performance landings, seek compotent one on one instruction that goes beyond grab this riser at this altitude... learn the aerodynamics behind the performance...
you cannot master the art until you have at least learned the science.
be safe; take it slow; and as I have said in another recent thread... live to swoop another day!
Peace.
Josh
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[billvon 2,402]

>So what is the safest way to come in? Toggle or front riser, and why???
I think the safest way to make a high performance landing is double fronts. You are facing the direction you are landing, and you can bail at any time by dropping the front risers and flaring. There is no way to bail from a toggle hook done way too low - the canopy cannot recover until it gains its speed back. The margins for error are small.
One caution: do NOT drop the toggles to get on your front risers! They have to stay in your hands. If this distorts your tail, get longer brake lines.
-bill von

[bhale 0]

If you do a search for past posts of similar questions, you will find endless pages debating the issue.
SOOOOOOOOOOOO many opinions on this one.
Good luck!

[quade 3]

Quote

As I see it, using front risers adds energy to your motion, whereas toggle inputs first take away a lot of kynetic energy, but the resulting motion will increase the energy.

With regard to canopy landings there are two types of energy; potential and kinetic.
Relating this to a soapbox derby car --
Potential energy is what you have while you're at the top of the hill waiting for the race to start.
Kinetic energy is what you have once the race begins and you begin to move down the hill. You also still have potential energy remaining since you haven't quite gotten to the bottom of the hill yet.
On final approach to a landing you're in approximately this position -- you have some kinetic energy due to your motion, but you also have remaining potential energy due to your height above the surface of the earth.
Because you aren't a powered parachute, you can't add any additional energy to the system. Just about everything you do will take away energy from the system in the form of additional drag. The one exception to this is if your canopy is trimmed at a speed faster than best glide ratio. If it is, then you actually have the ability to reduce drag slightly and increase your glide ratio.
Any speed faster than the best glide speed is a waste of energy. Any speed slower than the best glide speed is also a waste of energy.
Just about any canopy can be landed from its' best glide speed. There is usually no requirement for the purposes of a safe touchdown to fly any faster.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[DanG 1]

You asked for the safest way to land? Like jdhill said, preplanned downwind, base, and final legs with a straight in approach and well coordinated flare. (In an open field with a fully functioning parachute.)
And, at 85 jumps, it is the only way you should be landing. If you want to move on to high performance landings some day, first learn to land well without inducing speed. And get competent, individual instruction. You can teach someone how to fly a parachute over the Internet about as well as you can teach someone to drive a car over the Internet.
- Dan G (geting tired of friends planting themselves)

[AggieDave 6]

Yeah, a guy did something like that at Eloy this past weekend. He had around 75 jumps or so (well, I heard people say 50 and others say up to 90, so lets just say 75...) and came to Eloy bent on trying a hook turn. That was his plan from the start, his friends knew he was going to do it, etc. Well, he got Careflighted out after his hook turn. I'm in the same sort of position that you're in, I want to start working up to a high performance canopy doing some good swoops, but at my current jump number (142) I don't feel that it is worth it. Especially after this weekend (hook turn planting #3 that I've been around for).
Aerials
So up high
When you free your lives (the) eternal prize

[prost 0]

For high speed approaches front risers are the only way to go. i will save the big spill on why. If you want to learn high speed approaches get some more jumps under your belt and then go to a canopy control school. After you finish you will never consider toggle turns for high speed landings again.

[SBS 0]

You are correct in your reasoning...a toggle hook will stop your motion, before starting again, moreso than a front riser approach. In addition, it is easier to bail out of a front riser approach than it is to bail out of a toggle turn. On a good front riser approach, it is not a snap motion, rather a long, drawn out pull on the front riser, meaning that at no point are you without option. When making a snappy turn, you are at the mercy of your previous decision, as you must wait for your canopy to recover. A canopy's recovery will be quicker in a front riser maneuver than with a toggle, because the action of a toggle is to depressurize part of the canopy...the front riser is exactly the opposite, in that it increases the pressure, and thus, the lift produced, by your canopy.
I am with these other guys, though, that at 85 jumps, this is not what needs to be your main concern. Keep asking questions, and think through it...know your limitations, though, and don't get in over your head. Even though front risers are technically "safer" than toggles, it is still an extremely risky maneuver that requires experience to do properly.
Blue Ones,
Steve

[Samurai136 0]

Using toggles to swoop is dangerous because you have nothing left in the flare for landing. Using front risers leaves the full range of your flare to manipulate the speed, actually momentum, you've generated into lift and a long smooth glide.

Practice making turns w/ risers and toggles above 1000m and see how much altitude you lose when you make 90 degree turns w/ risers versus toggles. The trick to swooping is visually knowing how high you are and knowing EXACTLY what the canopy will do w/ various inputs. My friend from the DZ jumps a Sabre 150 and has taken his time over 700 jumps to learn how his canopy responds in all modes of flight. Now he safely makes 270 degree front riser turns and easily gets 40m swoops.

Don't attempt riser turns low to the ground. If your brain tells you "this looks like it might be low for a turn" don't make the turn.

-Ken

[brits17 0]

i agree with ken, i hardly EVER do toggle turns as an approach anymore. i haven't for quite a while. front risers are simply smoother and with toggles, if there's a mistake, you don't have any sort of way to bail out on emergencies. i've experienced this with all the canopies i've jumped, currently a safire109 and velocity75. also, if there's a need for speed? front risers :) C YA!
Blue Skies,
Brittany S!
D-24752

[Tonto 1]

I toggle hook, and have for the last 2500 swoops. Reason? It works for me. I see a lot of front riser hooks by people who have not retrimed their brakes for this - causes buffeting in the dives - and have seen 6 hospital cases from people who have dropped the brake toggle when releasing the riser.
I've also seen a bunch of people toggle hook it too low and get an orthopedic repair kit.
Lets face it. When you're loaded to 2.0 to 1 plus and you cock up... its ugly. Telling people one method is safer than another is bull. Its all dangerous. And fun.
t

[Tonto 1]

I dug this thread up for 2 reasons.

1. After careful consideration, I started to do riser turns, and have about 900 now. My swoops have improved dramatically.

2. An old friend and team mate dropped a toggle on a riser swoop this past weekend and femured, so the dropped toggle remains a risk.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[dharma1976 0]

its good to drill up top for dropped toggles...

practice grabbing your rear per one side after initiating a front riser turn up top....

so that way the muscle memory thing happens when you drop a toggle and it probably will happen at some point, be prepared, my buddy does this and I have watched him grab his rear in a panic and not just save his ass but have a nice swoop...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Tonto 1]

That's excellent advice.

Thank you.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[cessna54tango 0]

when you pull down a front riser and do a toggle turn they both induce speed on landing. the difference is, that fronts are cleaner and also when you pull down a front riser you are building speed and when you release it you will slow down.... generally. on a toggle turn you are going at normal speed then when you whip a toggle you speed up. you can see the problem close to the ground. so in my opinion fronts are "safer" and besides toggle turns are so lame.