Michele 1 #1 May 12, 2002 Phree brought this up in the Cobalt thread (actually, someone said something, and Phree answered). I recall an opening I had with the Spectre 230 which, by my esitmate (checking alti, allowing for 200 feet to reach and throw) took over 1200 feet to open, and a few feet to check spin, shape, float, and then check alti...I started my opening procedure at 4200, and was under a full canopy at 2800...From what I understand, it was not a streamer, because the center cells opened fine, but the outside ones didn't - it was doing the "I'll open when I want to" dance, but not changing heading, and not "snaking" (I think I know what that means). I call it the budding stage - it's there, and beginning to open, not just totally open yet...I was not too worried that it wouldn't open; I remember looking up at it, and it looked fine, just not fully opening. See, now my question is: did I miss something? Was that, in fact, a streamer that I should have cut from, or was it just a really sllllllllllllllllllloooooooooowwwwwww opening?Anyone?Ciels and Pinks-MicheleIf you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...~enya~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #2 May 12, 2002 I know I've heard of Spectre opennings taking in excess of 1,000 feet - it's one of the things it was designed to do, to be very cameraman friendly.Just gonna hazard a guess....Did you see the slider? My understanding between a snivel and streamer is that with a streamer the slider stays up in the canopy (I guess by tail fabric getting pulled through the slider grommets and trapped in place? No one has really explained to me WHY a streamer occurs, just how to spot it) and never 'emerges' (good reason to get a slider that is a contrasting colour to your center 3 cells? *shrug*).As to cutting away, depends on your harddeck - if below, yup, if above, depends - may want to find somone very familiar with the Spectre to get pointers on what a good openning is with it and packing techniques on how to speed it up and slow it down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #3 May 12, 2002 You pulled at little "high", so you had more time to sort things out. If it's still sniveling when you go through your hard deck, then chop it. I tmust have taken ages to open, when you consider that 1200 feet is 6 seconds at terminal. When I grow up, I want to be a post whore Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #4 May 12, 2002 Yeah, the hard deck is the key for me - 2500 still....and had I blown through that, I like to think I would have chopped it (although my last jump I went right through it fighting line twists)...And yes, it felt like forever; I was shouting at it"openopenopen", when it finally did. It was a tease, though....Ciels and Pinks-MicheleIf you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...~enya~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #5 May 12, 2002 have had a streamer before. When I looked up there was no doubt that it was a streamer and not a long snivel. The difference was that some of the lines were not stretched tight. You will usually see this because the cause of the streamer is some of the lines bunched up and knotted around the slider so there is slack in some of the suspension lines.William Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #6 May 12, 2002 Ahh, thanks on sharing that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #7 May 12, 2002 Thank you, Prost...that makes tons of sense...(I have so very much to learn!!!)Ciels and Pinks-MicheleIf you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...~enya~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #8 May 13, 2002 Hi michele, I jump a spectre with a 1.13:1 wingload and here is the conclusion I made:Spectre opens are: snivel, snivel snivel snivel snivels and then opens.For the packing I always do a good propack with 9 rolls at the tail (which always come undone when I lay it on the floor, really hate that its a pain to pack new ZP) "DO NOT ROLL THE NOSE! (from PD Manual "17) If your canopy opens too slowly, then leave the nose hanging neatly flaked; don't roll it at all. This leaves it exposed to the airstream and will help the canopy inflate faster."), if you can lay the tail on the floor without the tail getting undone I might recommend 6 rolls, that thing opens shmooth almost always. If you still loose to much altitude at openings you can put less rolls to the tail. If it still looses to much altitude, you should email PD about your problem (they might wanna know how you pack) and they will give you some recommendation, I read that one person got a new smaller slider.About the streamer I really don't have too much info on my brain but I think I read that if you can see the slider it means you have a canopy that will open (sooner or later, so check altitude); if you don't see the slider then go to the red and silver, its a streamer."Life is full of danger, so why be afraid?"drenaline Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #9 May 13, 2002 Michelle...if you ever find it taking longer than you like. Just reach up....grab the rear risers and give them a quick EVEN tug downward. Let them back up quickly. This should help the canopy inflate faster. So I hear Spectre's aren't overly sensitive so this shouldn't produce a "smacker" opening but will speed it up some. "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #10 May 13, 2002 See alti reading 4200'Brain processes image and decision is made, about 1/2 sec = ~90'Alti lag time error/paralax = ~100'Actual wave off and pull, about 2 sec = ~350'Check canopy, get "squared away" and check alti, 5 sec = ~60'Read alti after all of above -2800'4200 - 2800 = 1400' Total didtance covered from reading to reading.1400 - 90 = 13101310 - 100 = 12101210 - 350 = 860860 - 60 = 800' Distance remaining for actual opening and snivelAccording to an e-mail conversation I had with John LeBlanc of PD a short time ago, (which I posted the relevant parts here on Dropzone.com the last time this came up) the Spectre is designed and has been tested to open in about 600' to 800', with 800' being a long opening. This is a pet peeve of mine and it seems to keep cropping up. You had a normal opening, although it was at the longer edge of the envelope. alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #11 May 13, 2002 ***I recall an opening I had with the Spectre 230 which, by my estimate (checking alti, allowing for 200 feet to reach and throw) took over 1200 feet to open, and a few feet to check spin, shape, float, and then check alti...I started my opening procedure at 4200, and was under a full canopy at 2800...***I'm really new in the sport, and this jump was somewhere around #15...too lazy to look it up in the log book. I had been staring at the altimeter since 5K - flying alone, and the first time I had pulled that low (yeah, there is a reason I'm known as Airweenie...). Alan, I have a small problem with your figures....See alti reading 4200' was staring at it - not a "catch" at 4200...Brain processes image and decision is made, about 1/2 sec = ~90' good enuff for me Alti lag time error/paralax = ~100' if it was off then, it was off at the bottom, tooActual wave off and pull, about 2 sec = ~350' when I say "I started my opening procedure at 4200", I was reaching and pulling and throwing, not waving off...so I figure my estimate of 200 was generous (but that's debatable)Check canopy, get "squared away" and check alti, 5 sec = ~60' I was not checking control, I was Spin, shape, float checking, meaning I had my head back, and was eyeballing it. I don't think it took 5 seconds. Read alti after all of above -2800' coolio4200 - 2800 = 1400' Total distance covered from reading to reading. right1400 - 90 = 1310 good enuff for me...1310 - 100 = 1210 add back because if it was lagging then, it was lagging at the bottom, too 1210 - 350 = 860 add back 1/3 of that (+/- 117) because I didn't wave (see previous note)(and don't bother yelling at me about that - it has since been corrected)860 - 60 = 800' Distance remaining for actual opening and snivel add about 1/2 of that again, because 5 sec to look up at my canopy is a little long as I was not doing anything but checking the shape/spin/float of the canopySo my math goes a little like this:4200 - 2800 = 1400' Total distance covered from reading to reading.1400 - 90 = 13101310 - 350+117 = 10771077 - 60+30 = 1047 Distance remaining for actual opening and snivelNow, for some reason, you seem to think that I was complaining about the length of time. While it scared me, I had previously been warned that Spectres take a while to open. What I was concerned about was simply "did I miss a streamer that I should ahve cut from", rather than "man, that shitty Spectre took too long to open, and I am bitching about that". I like the Spectre, and will likely be purchasing one. And as I had previously been jumping that particular canopy 4 times, and have since jumped that particular canopy another dozen times, and have NOT had a repeat of that, it was definately something which was unusual, and, to my newbie mind, something to bring up. What I was concerned about was my inexperience, and newbie inability to recognize a mal when I have one. I am sorry that I touched on a pet peeve of yours - however, it is a sincere question, and a concern of mine. Your response ticked me off, because you obviously doubt my ascertation that it was an overly long opening. I talked to several people immediately after this occurance, and even had someone watch me pack it to make sure I was doing o.k., and not inadvertantly doing something wrong. As it had not occured before or since, I can only assume that a) I made an error packing it, b) I was utterly wrong in reading my alti, and c) have managed to correct the error without knowing it.Now, how do I recognize a streamer v. a long opening?Ciels and Pinks-MicheleIf you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...~enya~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #12 May 13, 2002 Hey Michele, I think Alan was just trying to put your mind at ease. Many people (myself included), think that canopies snivvel for a longer time than they actually do especially Spectres, and they overestimate the altitude they eat up during opening.......I currently jump a Spectre loaded around 1.6, previously I jumped Monarchs, and Sabres pretty regularly (both these canopies are notorious for 'brisk'openings). The first time I jumped my spectre, I found the experience a little unnerving, and I had over 800 jumps at the time. So I feel for you, and appreciate your concern. I've filmed my own openings, and in retrospect they don't take as long as originally imagined......."Now, how do I recognize a streamer v. a long opening?"My rule of thumb is when you pass your hard deck (we all have different hard decks, so lets not go there right now). My old instructor used to advise me thus, if your not happy with it chop it. Hell, I've chopped his main (I borrowed it to try out a monarch) because I thought it was streaming! I've never seen anyone chastised for chopping a canopy they were not 100% happy with. If its snivveling past your HD, and then opens with a brake mal, twists, etc. you could be running out of options, and options will keep you alive in a situation like this. If you know your canopy snivvels regularly, open a little higher, and allow for this in the dive plan.CyaD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #13 May 13, 2002 >Alti lag time error/paralax = ~100' if it was off then, it was off at the bottom, tooNo... just since its playing catch up in freefall does'nt mean its off under canopy too. Plus the paralax was probally more then 100' if you were using a Altimaster.I've got long openings on my Cobalt that feel like they take forever to open under canopy. On video review, they are only about 3 full seconds. They only take about 650-700 real feet to open. My spectre took 800 on a LONG snivel. Anything greater then 1000 foot really is'nt a snivel, its a streamer that finally opened. Imagine being under a snivel then look at your watch, count 8-10seconds (amount of time to travel 800 feet at 50-70 feet per second) then imagine still looking up to see a less then full canopy.If the slider is moving its probally not a streamer, if the slider never moves from the top and you never slow down... streamer.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #14 May 13, 2002 QuoteNow, how do I recognize a streamer v. a long opening?Typically, if you can see a correctly shaped slider and four distinct line groups running straight through the grommets, it is going to open eventually. Pumping the rear risers will speed this up (just like if you slider was stopped half way up the lines)... if the slider is not squared up and visible, or one or more line groups are tangled or slack, you may be looking at a canopy that is not going to open correctly.If you think you have a streamer and can't see any visible problems (knots or fabric entanglement), give the rear risers a few pumps, if that does not work make your decision based on your hard-deck (work it more or say goodbye to it). (If you can see the above mentioned problems of knots or fabric entanglements, you will most likely not be able to clear them so...)joshhttp://www.aerialfusion.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #15 May 13, 2002 Thanks, guys. And Alan, I apologize if I took the phrase "pet peeve" wrong, as in "I am sick of answering this question, why won't people stop asking it, and to hell with them, they're wrong...". I may have come across harsh, and didn't mean to. I have a lot to learn, but sometimes a tone will raise my hackles, and I will defend, or state my thoughts more stridently then intended. Or, to could be that I am having a really bad day, and simply have my head up my ass....Nac...QuoteI currently jump a Spectre loaded around 1.6 , would wingloading have anything to do with a snivelly opening? On the 230, I am under 1:1...QuoteI feel for you, and appreciate your concern. Thanks, Nac...it spooked me, and only happened the one time...and I still wonder about it.QuoteI've never seen anyone chastised for chopping a canopy they were not 100% happy with. See, there was a person on these boards who did question my cutting away, albeit as in "if she had more experience, she may have been able to correct the problem". I have huge doubts as to my abilities in the air, and don't take this stuff lightly. So while your experience is that people don't get chastized for cutting away, even from a perfectly good canopy, I have a different one, and so does another person who posts here on DZ. Phree...QuoteNo... just since its playing catch up in freefall does'nt mean its off under canopy too. Plus the paralax was probally more then 100' if you were using a Altimaster. O.K., perhaps I don't understand the paralax lag or whatever....explain please? QuoteImagine being under a snivel then look at your watch, count 8-10seconds (amount of time to travel 800 feet at 50-70 feet per second) then imagine still looking up to see a less then full canopy.In AFF, we were taught to count to 6, then look...and if nothing's there, chop immediately. Counting to 6 is something that I regularly do, although I have, with the exception of this jump, never made it to 6...in student gear it was 1 Ouch, and in the Spectre it is 1, 2, 3, 4...hi, Mr. Canopy...this time, it was 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, huh, 7, well, look up, it's there, now the center cells.....openopenopenopen.....wow, that took a while..good to go....This was the only jump I have ever made wherein I was totally aware of being in a feet-down/head up position, not sitting in the harness, just a body position switch from belly to standing...I knew something was there, but it wasn't fully open...I can't swear to anything, as the jump was not video'd, but I do know it took longer than it had previously, and than it did subsequently.Ceils and Pinks-MichdleIf you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...~enya~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #16 May 13, 2002 QuoteThis was the only jump I have ever made wherein I was totally aware of being in a feet-down/head up position, not sitting in the harness, just a body position switch from belly to standing...I knew something was there, but it wasn't fully open...Welcome to decent openings Michele. Thats how it's "Supposed" to work......"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #17 May 13, 2002 QuoteAlan, I have a small problem with your figures....I'll try to clarify and address your concerns.QuoteSee alti reading 4200' was staring at it - not a "catch" at 4200...I never implied that it was just a "catch", although I'm not sure how that makes a difference. You were at 4200' when you started your opening procedure, by your own words. That means you had to be seeing your altimeter reading. Perhaps you are trying to imply that you were anticipating a specific altutude an you "got a jump" on the procedure. What was your planned deployment alt.? 4500'? 4000'? 4200'? It doesnt matter though, as we seem to agree on 4200'QuoteBrain processes image and decision is made, about 1/2 sec = ~90' good enuff for meYes, I thought it was fair as well. Even if you were just waiting, it takes an instant for the brain to process in freefall. Lots happening in a hurry, especially for someone new.QuoteAlti lag time error/paralax = ~100' if it was off then, it was off at the bottom, tooNo, you are decellerating as the canopy deploys and the alti has time to "catch up". Also, the combination of snatch force and opening shock acts the same as light tap of your finger on the alti.....also aiding in the catch up.QuoteActual wave off and pull, about 2 sec = ~350' when I say "I started my opening procedure at 4200", I was reaching and pulling and throwing, not waving off...so I figure my estimate of 200 was generous (but that's debatable)I was being very generous in the 2 sec. In reality wave and pull is usually over 3 sec. I was assuming that you did not wave off. Assuming you were anticipating pull altitude, which is seldom 4200', meaning you were either late or early, it still takes about 2 sec for the pull and throw....even for an experienced jumper.QuoteCheck canopy, get "squared away" and check alti, 5 sec = ~60' I was not checking control, I was Spin, shape, float checking, meaning I had my head back, and was eyeballing it. I don't think it took 5 seconds. I wasn't including a controllabilty check as that would have taken an additional 5 to 10 secs and even more altitude. I assumed you were only checking for a good canopy and releasing the brakes. I didn't even add in time to check for other canopies around you as you are new and may have been alone or not been taught that yet. You may have done it in less than 5 sec, but I've only been doing/observing this for about 12 years. You're probably right, give yourself 30'.QuoteRead alti after all of above -2800' coolioEasy one to agree on I guess! :-) I didn't even figure in the time for the bag to get to line stretch and the canopy to come out.....about 1/2 to 3/4 sec, which means about another 80' or more. I also didn't take away the altitude while the slider comes down and the canopy reaches full inflation, which both will affect your perception of the snivel/streamer question.QuoteSo my math goes a little like this:4200 - 2800 = 1400' Total distance covered from reading to reading.1400 - 90 = 13101310 - 350+117 = 10771077 - 60+30 = 1047 Distance remaining for actual opening and snivelBut in your original estimation it was "over 1200" feet and now you are down to 1047' by your own math. I would hope that 12 years of experience, 2000 jumps, and observation of thousands more would lend some credibility to my responses, not to mention supprt from the designer of the canopy.QuoteNow, for some reason, you seem to think that I was complaining about the length of time.Nope, just trying to present accurate information about the time/distance realtionship during canopy deployment, specific to the parameters you gave. 800' will seem like a very long opening when you are not accustomed to it. 600' will seem much more likeable. Both are normal for the Spectre. 400' is accually a common and comfortable opening. Your concerns are valid, but your perceptions/estimates of opening distances/times are a bit off. I was trying to address that because my pet peeve is jumpers tossing about claims of 1000' or 1200' openings like they happen all the time, especially on certain canopies. Pretty soon, everyone is having 1000' openings on a certain canopy.QuoteYour response ticked me off, because you obviously doubt my ascertation that it was an overly long opening.I'm sorry if my responnse ticked you off, it wasn't intended to do that. If you read it again you will see that I agreed that you had a long opening, just that it was within what the manufacturer would consider normal. What I doubted was what you ascertained as the distance it took to open. I used the parameters you gave (4200' and 2800') to give you an accurate depiction of what was taking place in terms of time/altitude within those parameters. Quote As it had not occured before or since, I can only assume that a) I made an error packing it, b) I was utterly wrong in reading my alti, and c) have managed to correct the error without knowing it.There may be an option d)you experienced a long, but normal opening and it will happen again. It concerned you because fo your lack of experience and knowledge, and it ticked you off when someone with experience and knowledge gave you an answer you didn't like because you felt it questioned your ability to read an altimeter.QuoteNow, how do I recognize a streamer v. a long opening?I think this has been pretty well addressed through the combination of all of the responses. If you still have some concerns, let me know and I'll try to supplement what has already been posted, but it seems pretty thorough.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #18 May 14, 2002 Alan. Well.So, I read that when it was posted, wrote a response, took a second look at both the response and your post, and deleted my response. Then I read your post again. And a fourth time. Was still not getting what you're saying in a way that would allow me respond politely, and nicely. Left the board, and came back. Read the entire thread, and still, Alan, your response manages to hit a nerve with me. So I shall simply thank you for your time in writing it out. I shall also assume that you did not read my apology to you contained in this thread.And that is *all* I am going to say.Ciels and Pinks-MicheleIf you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...~enya~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #19 May 14, 2002 Michele, what points are fuzzy? I know exactly what irks Alan about a "1200 foot opening" (Its a peeve of mine too) so if I could help explain how rare and uncommon and unlikely one is I'd be more then happy to.Basically to get a 1200 foot opening you are under a sniveling canopy for at least 8 full real seconds. I personally would chop at 6 real seconds if nothing is happening.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #20 May 14, 2002 QuoteI personally would chop at 6 real seconds if nothing is happening.What's your definition of 'nothing happening'? On of _my_ pet peeves is people chopping canopies without actually trying to fix the perceived problem. After all, while the reserve canopy has an excellent track record, it is not without its recorded failures.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #21 May 14, 2002 Hi, Phree...Quote Michele, what points are fuzzy? I know exactly what irks Alan about a "1200 foot opening" (Its a peeve of mine too) so if I could help explain how rare and uncommon and unlikely one is I'd be more then happy to.My response was because I am having trouble controlling the words which come from my fingers in response to Alan...oh, I understand his position quite well...no fuzzy points therein. What I am having trouble with is something entirely different. I appreciate your willingness to explain things to me. I suspect that this is a personal issue between me and Alan's writing style. If Alan has any questions, or you do, you both are welcome to pm me.Ciels and Pinks-MicheleIf you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...~enya~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #22 May 14, 2002 Okay, this may be a frowned-upon technique but, for the most part, can't you usually stop excessive snivel with some riser input?There have been a few occasions where my Stiletto was taking a bit longer than I would have liked during opening so I will gently pull down on both rear risers evenly until the canopy starts to open. I forget who told me about this one but it seems to work really well on my canopy.The trick is that it doesn't take very much and you have to be smooth and even. I gave myself a line-twist the first time I tried it by not keeping it even.Just my $0.02,Kris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #23 May 14, 2002 Nothing happening... ie Slider not moving at riser input, no inflation of the cells, and yes I can tell when the second stage kicks in and and how the inflation will be by a glance up. If I grab the Rear risers and tug at them and nothing happens after that long of snivel.... chink.. its gone. I'll chance the reserve over a possible malfunctioning main any day of the week.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ECVZZ 0 #24 May 14, 2002 QuoteI personally would chop at 6 real seconds if nothing is happeningPhree - 6 seconds is my rule too. However, my first jump on a 230 Spectre at Perris was with w/ a Jim Wallace coach and he advised me to give the Spectre an 8 count before chopping.Would've been nice if he'd reminded me to deploy a little higher too. Ohhhhhhhhh, my ass puckered hard!And Michele, I had the same experience of slowly and gently going feet down.That was quite a pleasant change from getting spanked on opening! G. Jones"Why don't they have a light bulb that only shines on things that are worth looking at?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #25 May 14, 2002 Yup, I'm with Phree on this one. If you ever truely had a "1200 foot opening" you would've chopped it, assuming it was a mal.I once claimed to have had one. I honestly thought I did. Then I saw the video, and we did the math. Allan's explanation fit perfectly... Another lesson learned..._AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
