Sabre/Safire/Hornet???

[spectre230 0]

[jfields 0]

Merrick & Pammi,
I've read through this thread, and I hope you take everything the right way. I don't think people are saying you both have bad judgement. That isn't the case. Where I think people are headed is that you don't have hundreds of jumps worth of experience on which to apply your judgement. There is an immense amount to be said for time and experience, both in total and on a particular canopy.
Merrick, you said that you didn't do much with your front risers because you didn't have dive loops. My canopy had them when I bought it, so I don't know for sure, but I can't imagine it would cost much to have a rigger take care of that. I plan on spending at least a couple hundred jumps on my Sabre 190, to know exactly how it flies in all conditions and to use it as a (relatively) safe platform on which to learn a whole lot about canopy flight. I think folks are suggesting you squeeze every last bit of learning you can out of your canopy. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. You're right that I can't judge, but I'd guess that it is still fun to fly. Be patient.
I'm not saying that I am the voice of experience. I'm not. You have more jumps than I do. But try to heed what the more experienced folks are saying. Generally, they know what they are talking about. Especially when they more or less agree on something, because it doesn't happen often. practiced their procedures
checked their gear
passed on the risky jump
stayed on the bigger canopy

Be safe and be careful.
Justin
Member of the Whuffo Conversion Team

[Zennie 0]

Eh, what the heck, I'll throw in my $0.02 here.
I have 71 jumps as of today. That ain't many. At least 50 of those are on a Sabre 150 (rental and my own) that I load around 1.2. I stand up the vast majority of my landings in all conditions. I've played with the front riser loops (up higher). I do 90s, 180s & 360s and measure the altitude drop for each one. Bottom line... I think I'm a decent canopy pilot, and I have nowhere near explored the full performance range of this canopy. And I still make mistakes and learn new tricks (take a wrap on the toggles on no-wind days, look out toward the horizon when flaring, stuff like that), you will too. At least when I screw up with this canopy the worst I end up with are some bruises & dirt on my clothes.
There's no rush to downsize (unless you're loaded < 1.0, then maybe try a 1.1-1.2 loading -- I've found 1.2 has better drive through turbulence for me, while still being a conservative wingloading). I may in fact change canopies at some point, but it will be a light elliptical (Spectre, Safire, Sabre II) of the same square footage. And my main reason is that I'm really paranoid about the Sabre's opening characteristics (though I pack myself pretty nice openings).
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[spectre230 0]

[Merrick 0]

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"you don't have hundreds of jumps worth of experience on which to apply your judgment."

While this is probably very true, about 99.9% of the time I do tend to have very good judgment... Now, if this happens to be that .1% that I screw up, so be it... it's my decision in the end, so everyone's conscience can be clear.
I realize that it's impossible to FULLY explore every aspect of every condition/situation on my canopy... Hell, it's impossible for anyone on ANY canopy, but I do know what I'm capable of. Some of you say bullshit! Well, fine... as much as you feel like you know me, you don't, & you certainly have never seen me fly my canopy. Zennie has called a 1.2:1 wingloading conservative, yet I'm wanting to downsize to a 1.3:1 (1.29 actually) from a 1.16:1 wing.... tell me, where's the cut-off between 1.2 & 1.3 that crosses over from conservative to outfuckingragous!? I realize that any increase in performance is additional risk, if I wasn't ready to deal with the consequences I never would have even considered a smaller canopy. The majority of my first 16 jumps were done on a 230 sqft canopy which I was very comfortable with, I've been jumping my 190 ever since ( I currently have 61 jumps), I know none of you consider 45 jumps on my canopy enough to know shit, I might as well still be on radio (which btw, I was taken off of on my 5th jump), but I am absolutely 100% confident in my abilities & in my ability to handle a canopy one size smaller, as well are my old instructors & many of the highly experienced people I've talked to who have actually seen me jump on numerous occasions. My point is, my decision to downsize was made before I even posted this question (the question about the different canopies, not the one about how fucked up you think my judgment is that somehow must have slipped in to my post).

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"I submit that if you can't put what you are flying now within 15 feet of your target (the average radius of a pea gravel pit) every time you are not ready to downsize. Being very accurate on your landings means that you truly know how to fly that canopy size and type."

Thank you Lisa, thank you for that vote of confidence & validation.... On average I land between 10 - 20 feet from my target, the only time I don't is when we have a long spot or someone else is near it. Do I land in the same place every time... NO. Every weekend before I even make my first jump I pick spot to land, & I make sure it's different from the last. I do not land in our pea-pit because it's a mosquito infested 15 foot pond 80% of the time (& because I don't want to get complacent on landing in one spot).... the one time I tried to land there my foot touched one edge & I surfed straight thru the middle to the other edge! Landing has never been a problem for me, & about 25 jumps ago the accuracy thing just sorta clicked! I apologize if I sound incredibly arrogant (or have that 'attitude that's going to kill me'), but I am confident of what I can do & so is everyone around me. Yeah, I could probably land Pam's 135 without a bit of problem either (gonna' get it for that one huh? LOL), but does that mean I'm comfortable trying it or that I'm just gonna go out & buy one!??! Hell no!

To put you at ease a little bit, I don't plan on getting the canopy "RIGHT NOW." I decided (along with the decision to downsize) to wait until after Quincy to start looking seriously (OH NO! Quincy with <100 jumps, I must be stupid! LOL). So I'm probably looking at 2 - 3 months & about another 30 jumps or so before I get what I want! Thanks for all the great advice everyone, & truly thank you for your concern, but the info I really needed was about the canopies, not me.... I already know about me, whether you believe it or not!
"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.."
Edited by Merrick on 7/6/01 01:22 PM.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Actually, dive loops should only cost you a case of beer. I wouldn't charge you more than that; it's five minutes work.
Chuck
Swoop Nazi
Tamer of Domestic House Cats

[skybytch 259]

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I realize that it's impossible to FULLY explore every aspect of every condition/situation on my canopy

It is not impossible to fully explore every aspect of the canopy you are flying - that's what I've been trying to get across to you! Get some dive loops put on your front risers and learn to fly with them; you'll need that knowledge when you start doing more aggressive landing approaches with a more aggressive canopy. Ask anybody who does high performance landings - toggle turns can be dangerous, and at this point that is ALL you know how to do!

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Thank you Lisa, thank you for that vote of confidence & validation....

I'm not questioning your judgement or your abilities, Merrick. No need to get all defensive. What I've posted on this thread is exactly what I say to anybody with under 100 jumps who calls me looking for a canopy they will load like that.
Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. Sometimes those that choose to go that small that fast do just fine. Sometimes they don't. Unfortunately I know many more who didn't do just fine than I do those who did. I don't want to see you (who I happen to like) end up stuck on the ground due to an injury that you could have avoided by getting more experience flying the canopy you have before downsizing.
If you've already made your mind up, I know that nothing I or anyone else can say will change that. I hope that you are one of those who do just fine. But... I reserve the right to say I told you so.
Now that you really hate me.... I'd still recommend waiting until the Gen. II Safire and the new 9 cell from PD come out before you buy anything. I think either canopy will be worth the wait.
pull and flare,
lisa
----
I don't think much, therefore I might not be

[Zennie 0]

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Zennie has called a 1.2:1 wingloading conservative, yet I'm wanting to downsize to a 1.3:1 (1.29 actually) from a 1.16:1 wing.... tell me, where's the cut-off between 1.2 & 1.3 that crosses over from conservative to outfuckingragous!?

Easy paisano, I wasn't making a determination one way or another about your proposed wingloading (and quite frankly I didn't run the numbers on yours).
I'm just telling you where I'm at and my thinking as far as my canopy upgrade plans. Your mileage may vary.
I just know at my current 1.23 loading I've got plenty of performance and a fair amount of forgiveness. If I were to downsize my next size would be a 135, which would load me around 1.37. No way I'm ready for that yet.
Plus there are differences between styles of canopies at the same wingloading. A Sabre 150 and a Stiletto 150 do not fly the same and are not equally forgiving.
Like I said, I'm not passing judgment on you one way or another. I've never seen you fly so I have nothing to go on. I'm just passing on some considerations I've made in my canopy upgrade decisionmaking.
The only other thing I'd pass on is to ask your instructors or other people at your DZ who are familiar with your flying. I did. If they think you can safely go to a 1.3, then chances are you can.
As far as the actual canopy goes, I'd wait for the next generation Sabre & Safires to come out & demo 'em both.
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Kris 0]

Okay, I guess I'll put in my $0.02 here... I know Merrick, I've jumped with Merrick. I'm a staff-member and newly-minted JM at the DZ that he and Pammi jump at so I'm not looking to see them "femur-in" any time soon or do anything else to compromise their safety.
Merrick thought long and hard about down-sizing and did a lot of introspection about his perceived skill and what we or others told him about his canopy control.
Merrick is a stand-up landing, accuracy-loving, canopy-idiot and I watched very closely the landings he did on another JM's Sabre 170. Is he head's-up? Yes. Was he comfortable with the landings? Yes. If there was any question about his skill, he would have never have had the chance to try a 170, we wouldn't have let him.
I have a friend that is looking to dump his 170 for a 150. It's not going to happen and it's not going to be allowed at my DZ as he only has 70 jumps and only jumps twice a month. He has more jumps than Merrick but doesn't have the currency that Merrick has.
We have let Merrick know that his margin for error decreases significantly as wing-loading goes up and this is something he is comfortable with. The fact that he has done motocross before is actually a plus for him in the reflexes dept.
Another skydiver that graduated about 18-months ago started on a Jonathon 170. That's right, the prototype for the Jedei. He has the canopy control and the reflexes. That graduate is now a tandem master with ~800 jumps.
As for my input to Merrick, I started jumping a Sabre 210 off of student status. Big-canopy, right? Not when you're 260# out the door. I learned to respect that canopy and am almost expert in not getting spooked low and with working my flare and braked turns.
I've lost about 30# since then and am now jumping a Stiletto 190 that I may purchase unless I don't like the Vengance 170 (Gotta have air-locks in OK with our nasty gusts) that I will be demoing. The Stiletto was recommended to me at ~120 jumps by our S&TA and the DZO after I had had it with the occasional slammer on my Sabre and I didn't want to look at a Safire after the brake-trim-from-hell stories I have heard.
All we can do is give skydivers all of the available information and hope they do the best with it. If that doesn't work then it is up to those of us that have a say as instructor/JM's, S&TA's, experienced friends, etc to then step in based on our knowledge pool to make sure that we are all safe.
Kris

[cloud9 0]

This thread made me somewhat curious so I did some checking, and have to admit I was a little surprised. I went back to fatalities from 1996 - 2001 caused by low turns. Then I separated them into the following
0-200 because these would be under a D license
201-500 just seemed like a good spot
501-700
701-999
1000+
Here's the break down of what I found
0-200 8 deaths
201-500 12
500-700 6
700+ 8
Anyway it looks to me like less then D license 8 deaths D license holders 26 deaths. Your a lot more likely to be killed under canopy after receiving your D license then before. Take it anyway you want, I just found it rather interesting after reading what all the experienced folks had to say.

[skymedic 0]

interesting stats, overconfidence maybe?
Marc

[spectre230 0]

[skyhawk 2]

yer as i saud in my thread my friends think im a good canopy pilot but they all say i would get killed on a fully elliptical they said mayby in 200 more jumps min its not really the skill needed(it does need skill) i prob could land one and get away with it its having the experience to react to any situation this has to do with wingloadings, size and canopy design if you have a canopy coming at you at 50 meters above the grounds at 100 odd jumps what are you going to do 240sqf docile retangulare canopy at 1:1 winloading you could prob do a sharp toogle turn and get away with you do that on a 120 elliptical 1:7:1 and you are prob going to die. You may now what to do in every possible sittuation sitting at the dz or at your computer but when you have a couple of seconds to react its all about experience hell id love to go to a 89 stilleto or somthen but im not going to im after a 120 semieliptical which may sound bad but would only be mildly loaded

[Pammi 0]

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As for your "reflexes"comment that does not hold water.I have a car that will go 200+ in a quarter mile and that does not mean I am ready for a stiletto full time.

Getting off the subject in a way, but I'm not understanding how driving a fast car like motorcross at all? Have you actually ridden a dirtbike on those tracks? Good gawd! I'll tell ya, I tried. I'm thinking, "Hey, I rode dirtbikes and other motorcycles some growing up, helped break horses, etcetera...no problem! This will be a cinch!" Holy shit! Not close. Those 'whoops' or whatever the hell they are will kick your ass! No, I didn't wreck on the track...I kept it slow and was having a good time. Then I got cocky. Hey, I got this, no problem. I was friggin riding the thing to get the gas out of the lines because we were done for the day, just up and down the road going out to the track. What do I do? I start going faster, and faster...ah man! There's the end of the road, gotta turn or hit that gate! Major wipe out.
Now, I can drive a fast car! Woohoo! That's fun! But definately not in the same class as a dirtbike, especially on a track!
My personal moral of the story? It wasn't the bike that got me hurt...it was my own cockiness! I don't think you can group anyone simply by weight and number of jumps to determine skill level. There are a lot of other factors. There is attitude...are they the type who likes to 'live dangerously' or gets overly cocky when they start doing decently, or are they the heads-up type who know they have a wife and family to be with so aren't going to take chances to show off or forget to respect their canopy? There is skill, currency, talent...any number of things.
This thread started out as a way for us to discuss types of canopies, not critisize personal decisions on downsizing. While I appreciate everyone on these forums caring about us as fellow skydivers, as my dad always said, opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one. We definately have always appreciated the input from everyone, but in the end, it's up to each of us to make the decisions suitable for us.

Who's next up here? *smile*
Oh, and Spectre...How many jumps do you have again? The S&TA has over a 1000, and I have no idea how many our DZO has, but I think they might be a tad more qualified to give advice then any of us A-license holders are.
Pammi
Our webpage

[Merrick 0]

Thanks Kris, I appreciate that someone who's actually seen me fly my canopy could give their .02.

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"Even PD says 500 jumps for a stiletto."

Yes, they do say that... how insightful. You have one, do you have more than 500 jumps?? PD also says that you shouldn't weigh more than 255 out the door under the stiletto 150, you mentioned in an earlier post that you're loading at 1.73... Now I realize that you're only about 5 lbs over, but hey, if we're going to quote PD, you're pushing it.

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"Go ahead do what you want, It's your own ass."

That's right, it is MY ASS!! And if I thought my ass was in any danger I might actually be worried about how me getting hurt would look to the sport (since that's what you seem to be most concerned about anyway).

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"This will be my last post on this thread."

GOOD! As it will be mine as well!
Thank you Lisa (& everyone else) for the info & your opinions. I know that you've been in the sport for a long time & have probably experienced just about everything, so I do value & respect your opinions. I assure you that while I understand that there is always added risk anytime you introduce ANYTHING new to a skydive, I would never put myself in any danger... I have a wonderful wife & kids to think about, and I don't plan on leaving them anytime soon. I know that many of you may think this is an uneducated decision, but I can reassure you that it's not.... I knew well before this post all the risks this move would involve.
Thanks again & Blue Skies!
"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.."

[Merrick 0]

OK, I got one more post in me.... you make an excellent point sweetie motorcross is VERY diff from drag....

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"As for your "reflexes"comment that does not hold water.I have a car that will go 200+ in a quarter mile and that does not mean I am ready for a stiletto full time."

Any shitslingin' monkey can put their foot on the floor & hold the steering wheel straight! I've driven a 6 second funny car, a 5 sec rail car, & a 10 sec 54' chevy (first pass in the funny car I ran a 6.04, second pass, a 5.98... keep in mind it's best time was a 5.93 at the time with it's regular driver! The rail car was a little harder, but still ran a 6.88). So, your 200+ ain't sh*t! The concentration, reflexes, & general thought process was nothing in any of these cars compared to when I raced motorcross. It's something that will keep all parts of your body moving independently (much like skydiving), and you have to be aware of so many different factors at once, i.e. terrain, CHANGES in terrain, other riders, shifting, braking, accelerating, jumping (all at once)... so many things to be doing with different parts of your body all at the same time..... Much like SKYDIVING. I don't think I ever said that it had anything to do with "reflexes" anyway (that was someone else)... it's more about total body & surroundings awareness at ALL times (in freefall as well as under canopy)... I believe it is motorcross, plus a few other sports I was involved in, that has helped me so much in skydiving. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that "I raced motorcross, so I can jump a stiletto 120!!" Just saying that it certainly has helped keep me aware & constantly on my toes!
"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.."

[Aviatrr 0]

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OK, I got one more post in me.... you make an excellent point sweetie motorcross is VERY diff from drag....
I've driven a 6 second funny car, a 5 sec rail car, & a 10 sec 54' chevy (first pass in the funny car I ran a 6.04, second pass, a 5.98...

Wait a second.. Am I reading this right.. Are you saying you really did all of this stuff......IN DRAG?! Damn.. Mike

[Pammi 0]

ROFL! Uh huh...he's got a little kink in him! hehe
Our webpage

[mikefarmer 0]

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but suggested I look at some other semi-elliptical canopies before trying the cobalt or any other similar canopy

Merrick, that is good advice. The Cobalt flies nicely, but surprised me with its zippyness. It is definitely not a "toned down" or "semi" elliptical. It is a HIGH PERFORMANCE wing. I honestly can't give advice on a Safire or Hornet though, I haven't jumped them. Did jump a Spectre once, and it was nice. Anyway, you know what you can do, so enjoy whatever you get!
Mike
Mike's Sky World

[rhino 0]

Skybitch is right. I put 200 jumps on my Triathlon150 loaded at 1.2 with ALL standup landings. And I hit the within 5 feet of the disk 9 times out of 10. I have just downsized to a Diablo110 loaded at 1.5. I've demo'd many canopies before making my decision and I learned EVERY aspect of my Triathlon's flight characteristics before moving down. I Put 20 jumps on a demo Diablo120. It flew like a 135 with very light toggle pressure. And it still allows my to fly slow or fast, to flat turn, hold or to turn and burn. How is your accuracy? Can you flat turn? Can you hold in brakes? Can you land 10 times out of 10 on your feet on a no wind day? Skybitch is right, if you want more performance stay at the same loading and get a slightly better performing canopy. It's all a matter of safety and preference. Not only your safety but everyone elses safety. Don't be in a rush!!
Blue Skies!!
Rhino
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!

[Zennie 0]

Actually I heard another damn good reason not to downsize aggressively or go elliptical and it has nothing to do with landing skills.
You can't do CRW.
I personally want to dabble in CRW, so I'm keeping my square at it's present loading.
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Merrick 0]

I know I said I wouldn't respond to this thread anymore, Oh well....

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"How is your accuracy? Can you flat turn? Can you hold in brakes? Can you land 10 times out of 10 on your feet on a no wind day?"

Accuracy is great, (read previous posts to get an idea).
Can I hold in Brakes? Yes, I can... I can also sashay backwards with my rear risers, do rear-riser turns, do flat-turns, flared turns, flare on landing in a turn (no, not a hook turn.. I have absolutely no desire to do them), and land cross-wind in moderate winds. No, I don't have dive loops yet, but anytime I jump anyone else's canopy I use theirs... they're a lot of fun, can't wait to get mine.
Can I land 10 times out of 10 on a no-wind day? LOL - I don't want to sound arrogant, or that I think I'm some kind of skygod or anything.... but yes, absolutely! In my very very limited # of jumps I've only NOT stood up 4 of my landings... and that was jump #2 on student status, my first jump on my sabre, & the first two jumps when I wore my brand new jumpsuit (Figures huh, and of course it had just rained). I think that landing 61 of 65 jumps is pretty good... & I absolutely love no-wind days! Currently I only have about 65 jumps, I know that's not a lot, but everyone has been acting like I'm going from a freakin' goliath 300 to a stilletto 120. I'm planning on making one small step down to increase my wingloading from 1.15:1 to just under a whopping 1.3:1. I know that any increase is an increase in risk, and trust me... I'm not the kind of person to do something unless I've looked at every angle & am 110% positive that what I'm doing is the right thing.... sometimes to a fault (huh Pam??! ) again, I hate to sound like an arrogant ass, but I can fly my current canopy pretty damn good.
Listen man, I know that you & everyone else truly are concerned about my safety & yours (on that chance that we meet one day in the sky). I really do appreciate everyone's concern, but it really isn't necessary. I'm going to have to buy used (-$$$$... unless I get the hornet), so I'm not even looking seriously until after Quincy. So, as I've said before, with the jumps I make before, during, and after Quincy, I'm looking at another 30 - 40 jumps on my current canopy before the 170 is even in the mail!
Thanks again guys, and I promise.... I'm done this time! lol
"If words were wisdom, I'd be talkin' even more.."

[weid14 0]

quincy is an excellent place to demo gear... just land in the big field! They'll all be there, get an early start as I imagine the line will get long