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Laszloimage

Tandem passenger handy cam....

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Laszloimage

Tandem passengers (yes the passenger on his/her 1st jump!) doing their own handy cam... Opinions please.



This isn't anything new (other than the camera on the student's thigh, I think!)

We talked about this about a year ago. A number of instructors were using cameras on the student's hand with various degrees of success. I think that the lack of consistency in the student's performance discourages most instructors from doing this (and charging for it).

Personally, I am not too concerned about any safety issues. It seems safer to me to have the camera on the student than on the instructor's hand.

Plus, the student is not expected to do handles checks, so they can stare into the camera all they want.

It will be interesting to hear comments from those who might have been doing this for a year or more.

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Did this for two years, DZO's choice, not mine.

Turned out a modest video product, sucked for the editor.

Exit shots were more tight on their face, but we had a way that got some of the shot, and had them still holding the harness with both hands.

Bad students were just as bad as with outside video, handicam on instructor, and no video. Good students the same.

I think more of them actually followed instructions on exit because if they didn't "they were going to mess up their video".
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I never understood why anyone would allow this. Its like bringing your own beer to a bar. Its so silly. As an instructor, all your doing is making your job harder without being paid for the extra work thats involved. I would just rather shoot the hand cam myself and get paid for it. i just dont see any benefit.

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Personally, I am not too concerned about any safety issues. It seems safer to me to have the camera on the student than on the instructor's hand.



It absolutely is a safety issue. From not concentrating on body position on exit/freefall/deployment to reaching up and grabbing the harness and getting the camera caught on a EP handle...there is nothing safe about it!!!

Not to mention the amount of substandard footage that promotes your DZ soon to be plastered all over the internet. Also, doesn't the USPA consider tandem passengers "students"? Name one student progression method that involves a camera.

You can still do handle checks with handcam.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

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Overall I would rather shoot my own handicam any day of the week. But let's not be overly hypocritical, tandems are a training method but most tandems aren't training skydives. If they were we would have them do a 8 hour ground school first and have them prepay for a few jumps.

We would also stop taking money of people without the fitness, mental or physical, to progress on to solo jumps.

I try to make every jump educational, promote the sport, but I am just a glorified amusement park attendent to a large percentage of my passengers. Wanting it to be different doesn't change they way the customers see a tandem.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Or the tandem passenger that refuses to keep their hands bellow their shoulders under canopy despite numerous direct verbal instructions to not reach up with their hands.




Just curious. You don't give them the toggles?
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Absolutely, I give them a full canopy instruction. They fly the majority of their jump, but I don't let them land the canopy with me. At pattern altitude they give the toggles back and I ask them to hold on to the excess at the main lift web friction adapters.

If you have every student land with you then my hat is off to you.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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If you have every student land with you then my hat is off to you.



I do. The only exception so far is one guy who was passed out till just before landing. The secret is at least 2 and maybe 3 practice flares shortly after opening to teach them, and to judge what they are going to do. I believe that having them pull down the toggles helps them with getting their legs up. It works for me. I know I'm in the minority, but that's how I was trained.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Not condoning or condemning handcams, just wanted to say that I've seen TI's that once under canopy, will put the handcam on the student.

Personal opinion? If you're going to take a handcam I like that idea. Let the TI get the exit and free fall shots, let the student geek the camera while the TI flies the canopy (without the go pro getting an excellent closeup of the toggles, or a view over the TI's shoulder). It seems like the biggest risk is dropping the camera during the transition from 1 wrist to another.
If you can't convince them, keep them confused.

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Recently I was at Okanagan Skydive (Vernon, B.C.). A student showed up with her own Go-Pro, so manifest handed it to the TI and he strapped the student's camera into his regular hand-mount. After the jump, he just handed the GoPro back to the student.

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Is the DZ liable to cover the damage the Go Pro will inflict when it falls off a Tandem student?

Are the tandem students using their own Go Pro or does the DZ owe the Go Pro? If it's the students, will their insurance cover damage to my car or anything else if it falls off?

Tandem student doesn't have USPA third party insurance so who covers damage?
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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flyangel2

Is the DZ liable to cover the damage the Go Pro will inflict when it falls off a Tandem student?

Are the tandem students using their own Go Pro or does the DZ owe the Go Pro? If it's the students, will their insurance cover damage to my car or anything else if it falls off?

Tandem student doesn't have USPA third party insurance so who covers damage?



Very, very good questions, Mary. I have been assuming my GoPro and my camera mounting system, so that I have control of the maintenance. If it is mine I am not worried. If someone is using an un-maintained system then they may want to worry about these things.

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Mo secret there. The secret is... well don't want to spoil your surprise. .... when you get your legs or back broken you will understand. Jack Hammer found out the hard way and he,was a strong examiner who insisted everyone do it that way.. fucked him up in the end...

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

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This was discussed 3 years ago. It seemed that those who had experience on putting go pros to students were totally ok with it. Those who did not have experience over this, opposed the idea strongly.

Common sense would suggest it is safer to have the student wear the camera than the TI. This way TI can focus better on doing their job. Most likely the quality of the footage is worse, but I would guess in some ways it makes the video even more personal to the tandem pax, since they get to film the jump by themselves.

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It absolutely is a safety issue. From not concentrating on body position on exit/freefall/deployment to reaching up and grabbing the harness and getting the camera caught on a EP handle...there is nothing safe about it!!!



Your previous post is filled with your opinion and assumptions that have yet to be seen in the industry.

If there were 'dangerous incidents' occurring as a result of hand-cam usage by students or by instructors, then we would be reading about those incidents all over this forums and in the national news and skydiving related publications. but we are not.

It is a small industry and incidents seldom escape public scrutiny.

The use of hand cams is accelerating, so we should see the number of incidents accelerating. and we are not.

fact is that cameras are getting smaller and eventually the hazard will be pretty much the same as your altimeter offers. which is zip.

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My opinion was in regards to a tandem passenger wearing the camera. I have zero problem with a instructor wearing one as long as they have the proper experience.

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If there were 'dangerous incidents' occurring as a result of hand-cam usage by students or by instructors, then we would be reading about those incidents all over this forums and in the national news and skydiving related publications. but we are not.

It is a small industry and incidents seldom escape public scrutiny.



Major accidents that involve serious injury or death get public scrutiny. And even when that happens DZ's are under no obligation to send any detailed report into the USPA for review or investigation.

How often do small incidents get reported? Say for example, on opening a student reaches back and grabs ahold of the reserve handle and pulls it just enough to dislodge it? Those types of incidents? I bet never. So not much public scrutiny there.

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The use of hand cams is accelerating, so we should see the number of incidents accelerating. and we are not.



Maybe that's because the number of times that a student is wearing one is extremely rare and properly trained instructors are doing the filming.

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fact is that cameras are getting smaller and eventually the hazard will be pretty much the same as your altimeter offers. which is zip.



There's more issues to wearing a camera than just a snag hazard. Like I said in my prior post(the part you conveniently left out), how do you feel about substandard footage going out and promoting your business? And aren't tandem passengers considered STUDENTS? Name one student progression program that requires the student to be flying camera.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

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tonyhays

How often do small incidents get reported? Say for example, on opening a student reaches back and grabs ahold of the reserve handle and pulls it just enough to dislodge it?



That brings up an interesting - if not smartass point.. If I had a hand-cam on Jackson, would he have been holding his hand out in front??

BTW, this was a new one for me.. I brief my students to have their arms down and relaxed, or crossed back up until I bring them the steering toggles down.. This boy was just ready to fly...

Personal note, I prefer that my student does not have hand-cam. It is just another thing "I have to do" for them on the skydive...:S

Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!!

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