JohnMitchell 16 #26 August 13, 2015 tonyhays From not concentrating on body position on exit/freefall Okay, I'll admit to this one yesterday. I was not the one who trained the kid and it was a hot turn. I'll hammer the body position thing a little harder (esp. hands on harness) next time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TEB6363 0 #27 August 13, 2015 JohnMitchell "student not good handle" Oh shit! You're Telling Me...There was about 1/4-inch of pin left through the reserve loop.. I was happy to have the sigma Spectra Ripcord... Gave me some wiggle room.. But, since I could not see that in the air, I spent about 30 seconds after I got the handle from him and back on the Velcro trying to "shake" the reserve out... Got my heart rate up a bit ... Ok, back to the regular discussion.. Sorry for the hijack.. Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JasonYergin 0 #28 August 14, 2015 Nooooope. Nope, nope, nope, nope, noope. Never gonna let passengers take a camera of any kind due to the safety concerns._________________________________ ...Don't Get Elimated!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #29 August 16, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOa4vI5B8DE Nice passanger hand cam videos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 256 #30 August 17, 2015 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.skydiving/tandem$20AAD/rec.skydiving/Wad9nsDcas4/pDPPBe_Jh6kJ I remember the threads many years ago from tandem instructors that said they would NEVER do another tandem jump if AADs were made mandatory. No, never, not ever. dangerous, and all these 'what-if' scenarios. Same for RSLs seemingly we got over that. Hopefully we get over the idea of a camera the size of an altimeter, mounted like an altimeter, where an altimeter would normally be, as something other than a 'safety hazard'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #31 August 17, 2015 tkhayeshttps://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.skydiving/tandem$20AAD/rec.skydiving/Wad9nsDcas4/pDPPBe_Jh6kJ I remember the threads many years ago from tandem instructors that said they would NEVER do another tandem jump if AADs were made mandatory. No, never, not ever. dangerous, and all these 'what-if' scenarios. Same for RSLs seemingly we got over that. Hopefully we get over the idea of a camera the size of an altimeter, mounted like an altimeter, where an altimeter would normally be, as something other than a 'safety hazard'. The same arguments against this can be used against the roller coaster ride casual tandem itself. It distracts the students... they are distracted and under trained despite the instructors best efforts. They are students and students can't fly camera... yes because they are treated like students and not passengers at every dropzone. They could snag a handle with the camera... they do that already with their grabby hands. It distract them on exit... you mean like the flips and shit kids that try to sit fly or flip on exit. The main reason for not doing it, after being stuck using this method for two full seasons, is that the video isn't consistent. It waste the editors time because it isn't a consistent clipping of videos. The instructor also has to wrestle with students who have the cameras aiming in the completely wrong direction. Half the time it is an awesome product, and have the time you wouldn't even want to put your competitors name on the video."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 256 #32 August 17, 2015 all these arguments have been made in previous posts and equally dispersed in previous posts. the assumption that a 'distraction' equates to a negative impact on anything is simply flawed. the skydive itself is a distraction. especially if they have never done one before. they have no idea what to expect nor do you have any idea of what they are going to do. most people do what they are told to do. and that applies to a small handcam on their wrist as well. tel them what to do and help them with it. We seem to manage to teach tandem students tracking, turns, ripcord pulls, altimeter readings etc, and do it on a 15 minute call with a high success rate and no 'distractions' worthy of mention. And I could give a shit about the product that it ends up being, mostly because the customer does not give a shit about the product they are getting. 99% of selfie videos these days are simply that 10 seconds of 'lookatme lookatme' and it is over. it gets watched 3 times by family and friends and then it gets shelved. which is probably the same thing that happens with the fully edited production high quality edited tandem video. But it might put another $25 in the pocket of my tandem instructor, and provide the customer with an above-average customer experience. Full edited options are still available. bottom line? Student are already jumping handcams in many places. is there a risk? yes. is that risk coming to fruition in the way of tragic accidents and near-misses? Apparently not. I see the advent of student handcams as one of the biggest 'yawn' moments in tandem skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #33 August 17, 2015 No real argument from me. At the time it was a real money maker for the DZO who wasn't making as many student jumps as past years. The instructor got an extra 5 bucks to geek the camera and grab an arm and move it into position. The dzo charged near instructor handicam prices, but it was an edited product. The students that came back said they loved the product because they were able to film parts of the experience that they wanted, instead of an instructor that is trying to film as efficiently as possible."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #34 August 18, 2015 Quoteis that risk coming to fruition in the way of tragic accidents and near-misses? Apparently not. Unfortunately there is no way to verify the near misses until either 1) something tragic happens that involves a student wearing his own camera or 2) some sort of mandatory reporting system is put in place for all incidents, not just the major ones. And even if scenario #1 happens, we may never know the cause til way down the line due to tight lipped litigation fearing DZO's and Ti's. QuoteAnd I could give a shit about the product that it ends up being Surprising sentiment coming from the manager of a business QuoteI see the advent of student handcams as one of the biggest 'yawn' moments in tandem skydiving. I bet a bunch of people thought putting on the Y-mod was a great big 'yawn' too, until the grandma video surfaced and the FAA was less than impressed with our performance and the mod became mandatory. How bout we ask the experts since opinion is divided. Both Bill Booth and Tom Noonan are on this website, what do you guys think?“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 256 #35 August 18, 2015 QuoteUnfortunately there is no way to verify the near misses until either false. dropzone.com, facebook, youtube, vimeo, liveleak, are filled with them. you keep repeating this mantra. There are hundreds, if not thousands of near miss accounts for skydiving alone all over the internet, ESPECIALLY with the advent of small cameras. QuoteSurprising sentiment coming from the manager of a business not at all. I deliver a product that the customer wants and make money from it. it is the very essence of business. not sure who thought the y-mod was a 'yawn' moment or what you mean by that. It would be a yawn moment if 'nothing happened' due to Y mods being put in. but things did happen. they stopped people falling out of harnesses. A good example of a yawn moment would be the change from student ripcords to BOC throw-outs. everyone talked about death and destruction then as well. But so many other countries had been doing i for years. For some reasons, 'USA students' were special and were going to die. no one died - certainly no more than did on S/L, hence...yawn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomNoonan 1 #36 August 18, 2015 This is certainly an interesting question. Procedurally, there is not a written policy for or against the use of handcams being worn by the students from our side of things (UUPT). We have provided our tandem examiners (and USPA) a document with specific requirements and processes for use of a handcam by a tandem instructor, but the idea of a student/passenger wearing the camera, is relatively new, so we do not have any formal guidance in that regard. If some is choosing to place a camera on their student/passenger, then the most appropriate statement to that effect however would be that: "The student should be properly trained to perform their student functions and tasks on the skydive (i.e., exit, free fall, landing, etc) and that if a camera is added to the student, it's addition should not be able effect the student/passenger's ability to perform these functions and tasks." With that said, I would say we are not for or against it, rather we remain neutral on the topic at this point. A distracted tandem instructor is equally as much as a concern as a distracted tandem student/passenger, so in either realm, the instructor or student/passenger should be properly trained to reduce the possibility of distraction by adding a camera. Hope that helps, TomNamaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 16 #37 August 18, 2015 Tom, that feels like a very sitting on the fence answer. UUPT have rules regarding jumping with tandems, videography requirements etc. Whether DZ or manufacturer enforce these is a different matter but they have them and yet for this they don't have an definitive position on the person up /front. Does UPT consider the person on the front a student or a passenger ? If its a passenger then USPA doesn't address passengers, but it does recognize students and it basically students can't have cameras. If its a matter of, "if trained then its not an issue". Does this also apply to AFF, SL, IAD students who can also be trained as well ? Although the cameras are small these days, they can also be a distraction. Many of the students I see are so overwhelmed by the whole experience they often forget the very basics despite a good training program for tandem students. As for the financial aspect for DZO/Instructors. Its a service offered by the DZ and its a take it /or leave it situation, Always has been whether outside video or handcam. In a similar manner, take your own ingredients to a local McDonalds and ask if you can just go round the back and make you meal for free. See how that one works out for you !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomNoonan 1 #38 August 18, 2015 QuoteUUPT have rules regarding jumping with tandems, videography requirements Agreed. But they didn't happen overnight, they evolved over time as the practice of flying tandem video began to present danger areas and skill short comings. All I'm saying here is that the practice is too new to really understand any statistical/repeatable short comings. QuoteDoes UPT consider the person on the front a student or a passenger ? Depends on the context of the jump being made. For example, in certain parts of the world, it is entirely a "passenger" experience. In other areas it is used for training in a "student" oriented environment.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 16 #39 August 18, 2015 I'm playing a bit of a devils advocate here. So how long did it take UUPT to determine that selfie sticks were not a good idea or was this a lets wait and see position as well. How many incidents occurred before UUPT established a position on this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyhays 86 #40 August 19, 2015 Quotefalse. dropzone.com, facebook, youtube, vimeo, liveleak, are filled with them. you keep repeating this mantra. There are hundreds, if not thousands of near miss accounts for skydiving alone all over the internet, ESPECIALLY with the advent of small cameras. So the multitude of social media sites where near misses/tragedies may or may not be uploaded and then may or may not be watched by skydivers, let alone TI's, is considered a reporting system??? Yes, with the advent of small cameras the amount of skydiving videos out there is growing constantly. Sifting through all of them to find ones with the near misses that we'd like to see(for example a student wearing a wrist mount camera that reaches back and releases the reserve handle) is the proverbial needle in a haystack. Perhaps I should rephrase my mantra for ya...Until a mandatory, reliable, and central reporting system is put in place and disseminated to the instructors & examiners, the likelihood of learning from near misses and tragic events is potentially severely diminished.“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 256 #41 August 21, 2015 I never claimed it was a reporting system, I claimed that not much gets by in the sport that does not end up 'out there'. so to think that somehow we are not going to hear about 'incidents' involving student handcams is a bit of a stretch. that would have to be some conspiracy. QuoteUntil a mandatory, reliable, and central reporting system is put in place and disseminated to the instructors & examiners, the likelihood of learning from near misses and tragic events is potentially severely diminished. That may be, but it is no reason to NOT allow students to use handcams in the meantime. You are simply saying we need to create a bureaucracy where no one exists today before we can move ahead in the sport. We already have reporting systems in place for a lot of things. Most things get reported, some do not. Using that logic then, we should stop all skydiving until the mandatory reporting system is fully implemented. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #42 August 21, 2015 have you had number of tandem passenger using and wearing their own gopro? i've had about a dozen. it was all good until I had a passenger who wanted 15 different exit angles.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 256 #43 August 21, 2015 We have not done it yet, but considering it. Quote it was all good until I had a passenger who wanted 15 different exit angles. that goes for just about anything. i.e. All my tandems were good, except the ones that weren't. but I still continued to do tandems..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #44 August 21, 2015 how much do passenger pay extra to bring their own gopro? which doesn't make sense in first place, but hey, I guess you can charge it as a corkage fee.. do Ti make more per jump if passenger brings their own gopro?Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #45 August 21, 2015 Why would you have the passenger bring their own GoPro? Even at cook your own fondu restaurants you don't bring your own food to cook, even though you are doing part of the work. The DZ supplies the glove and the camera, then you have consistency with the setup from student to student. Have them pay what the market will support, compared to the guy up the road doing outside video at 120 bucks a pop this will look like the biggest bargain in the world. Heh! Regarding the 15 different exit angles, big fucking deal, they do that very well without a camera. You had 15 with a one cinematographer, I had 500+ with only 1 or 2. If you show them how to hold the harness so the camera films the exit they will hold on for dear life because they won't want to miss the shot. Almost none of these students let go of the harness before prompting, because there was a carrot, and a stick. They held on because they knew the camera was already aimed, they didn't let go because they didn't want to mess up their shot. I have a higher ratio of students performing better with video, both when it was on their hand, and now that it is on mine. It gives them something to focus on other than just being totally overwhelmed."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShortBus 0 #46 August 25, 2015 Say I let a student bring up their own camera. It pops off some how and smashes a car window or thunks someone in the head? Since I was the TI would my uspa cover the damages? Who would be at fault? So i read what TK had to say. I think gopro type cameras are getting smaller, lighter, and would have less chance of an injury if it did pop off. I feel like the winds of change are hitting cameras faster than DZ's having the mindset to allow Students to use them. The only camera set up i have seen people bring in to use are the GoPro. They are still pretty solid in that plastic casing. A few different people have made side money making gloves specifically for skydivers to use. Most stock go pro mounts are pretty crappy still. If its not taking money out of my pocket and not making me feel like i could be liable for something out of my control. I say have fun with it. Just don't rain on my parade. "edited for not reading everyones post" He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
k2skydiver 0 #47 September 21, 2015 I feel the need to weigh in on this subject, I have been placing the Hand Cam on students for 3 years now and have made an estimated 1000+ jumps doing so. I have never once had an issue that I felt the camera contributed to. I use the cookie hand mount glove that is supplied by me and I am the one that puts it on the student in order to ensure that it is done correctly. this is only done on 1st time (Passengers) and never anyone that is going through any type of formal training. I train all students the same and the mention of the camera is never brought up until I harness them. I do all of the ground footage and footage in the plane and just before hookup I put the camera on their left hand. I tell the (passenger) that's its just there for the ride and that the only thing we are doing different is putting their hand out in front of them before we leave the step and I am generally holding their arm just as I would if the camera was on me. I have found that because of the extra reach the passenger has the video turns out better and that the skydive is actually much more safe for me. Now just so you understand my experience I have over 4000 tandem skydives over 2500 hand cams and a total of 5 tandem cutaways with the last 2 being hand cam on the passenger 2 others with it on me. having the camera on them left my hands free of obstruction during the cutaway process and definitely made me feel better when I needed my hands the most. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #48 September 21, 2015 ***I feel the need to weigh in on this subject.../quote] Kevin, thank you for the information! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShortBus 0 #49 September 28, 2015 how is a student supposed to keep their hands on the harness if they're sticking them straight out to film? Have fun doing 182 exits with 200lbs of stupid flailing their arms trying to get "The shot." Thank you skyhook for making most my tandem cutaways a SOS style chop. I don't think I would keep throwing drogues if a glove on my hand made me feel "unsafe." I would pay good money to see a first jump student shoot a better handi-cam video them me. It's not happening, not in a million years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #50 September 28, 2015 Go read some of my earlier posts. They can film the exit while holding on to their harness. FOV is obviously tighter but it works."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
