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jf951

gopros and tandem students

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rant GoPro( tndm *stdnts ){

i HATE when people come in and assume they're bringing their own hand mounded/chest mounted/head mounted/what ever the f*** mounted GoPro along with out asking anyone including the instructor who's taking them. i cant be the only that bugs.

return frustration;

} /*end rant*/
Jump more, Bitch less.

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rant GoPro( tndm *stdnts ){

i HATE when people come in and assume they're bringing their own hand mounded/chest mounted/head mounted/what ever the f*** mounted GoPro along with out asking anyone including the instructor who's taking them. i cant be the only that bugs.

return frustration;

} /*end rant*/



if GoPro() = 1 then {
echo "If you would like, we can place your SD card in the instructors hand mounted GoPro for a fee. However, you cannot wear your own camera!";

return cash;

} /*On the other hand, I do joke that it would be funny to allow them to wear it on their head mount (elastic headband that comes with it) with a waiver signed saying they may loose it and we're not responsible. On exit, I could swipe it off their head before it gets blown off and pocket it. Sell to staff members at discounted rates. */
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Perhaps because a tandem skydive already has enough complexities with the student that don't need to be added to by a camera/snagpoint/distraction?
Because the DZ is in the business of assuring a "safe as possible but high risk" experience?
Fly camera for enough tandems, you eventually see some very 'interesting' moments that (IMO) would only be more complicated by adding a wrist or chest mount camera.
if nothing else, then how about the "The DZ offers outside or hand cam to best assure your safety and great experience?":P

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Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?



Oh, I see you were serious...... OK, assuming you are serious and that you actually wish to have a discussion: How many jumps as a tandem TI do you have?

Me, I have maybe 1,000, maybe more. And I can tell you that tandem skydiving is THE most dangerous type of skydive an experienced jumper can make. You basically create a pilot chute in tow malfunction on purpose and carry a person that, at any time, can freak out on you and start grabbing things. They can swing their hands and hit you, they can smash their head against your head/face/neck (we just recently had a fatality where it seems the students head smashed into the TI and incapacitated him) and they can grab handles, bridles, drogues, your hands.... etc.

There is the additional snag hazard. When you take two heads thinking different things, four arms doing different things, four legs doing different things, and a possibly tumbling ball of shit.... the last thing you need to worry about is a camera. Hell, even the TI wearing a handycam increases the risk and the TI has TOTAL control over where that camera is. We already have incidents where the bridle gets caught by the students or TI's arms, legs, head (yes head)... Adding to that that is not exactly a smart move.

Finally, ignoring the snag hazard (which is HUGE) what happens if they drop the camera and it goes right through someones roof, dents their car, or god forbid hits someone?

All this is with a person who has NO IDEA what they are going to do either. Yet they like to think they will get 'the shot'. They won't, they would be lucky to remember to turn the camera on.

Simply put, the risks of a total unknown participant performing correctly is already there..... ADD a task to them and the chance of them performing that as well makes correctly performing EITHER less likely.

Again, how many TI jumps do you have?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?



Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.



Makes it OK in NZ then - because they are 'units, and 'units' can wear whatever they like. :ph34r:
2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

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http://www.dropzone.com/...7;page=unread#unread

Some earlier discussion on the subject.



I have read that thread an nowhere did I see you mention how many TI jumps you have.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?



Because they are a student, and students don't wear cameras.



Makes it OK in NZ then - because they are 'units, and 'units' can wear whatever they like. :ph34r:



In the USA they are legally "passenger parachutists", not students. (FAR Part 105.45)

However, I agree with Ron that it's a really bad idea.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I think adding a camera to the instructors hand adds much more risk than adding a camera to a students hand or even better the students harness.




I think you're wrong, and I think you don't have the experience to make that sort of judgement call.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Our DZO's have left it to the TI's to determine weather or not it's ok for the tandem students to wear these.

I wouldn't recommend it to a junior TI and I require them to be secure but otherwise they don't bother me too much.

Honestly, it's the young jumpers that want to wear them mostly and in general they are physically fit and leave me a little wiggle room to make sure they don't kill us or someone on the ground with there gear.

FWIW, I have never seen video or stills from these jumps that was worth anything.
Overkill is under rated.

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rant GoPro( tndm *stdnts ){

i HATE when people come in and assume they're bringing their own hand mounded/chest mounted/head mounted/what ever the f*** mounted GoPro along with out asking anyone including the instructor who's taking them. i cant be the only that bugs.

return frustration;

} /*end rant*/



if GoPro() = 1 then {
echo "If you would like, we can place your SD card in the instructors hand mounted GoPro for a fee. However, you cannot wear your own camera!";

return cash;

} /*On the other hand, I do joke that it would be funny to allow them to wear it on their head mount (elastic headband that comes with it) with a waiver signed saying they may loose it and we're not responsible. On exit, I could swipe it off their head before it gets blown off and pocket it. Sell to staff members at discounted rates. */



LOL! Yo man that made my day!! Good to know there's a few coders out here that skydive too!

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Whats the problem? Why not let the customer wear his go pro glove or harness mount ?



Oh, I see you were serious...... OK, assuming you are serious and that you actually wish to have a discussion: How many jumps as a tandem TI do you have?

Me, I have maybe 1,000, maybe more. And I can tell you that tandem skydiving is THE most dangerous type of skydive an experienced jumper can make. You basically create a pilot chute in tow malfunction on purpose and carry a person that, at any time, can freak out on you and start grabbing things. They can swing their hands and hit you, they can smash their head against your head/face/neck (we just recently had a fatality where it seems the students head smashed into the TI and incapacitated him) and they can grab handles, bridles, drogues, your hands.... etc.

There is the additional snag hazard. When you take two heads thinking different things, four arms doing different things, four legs doing different things, and a possibly tumbling ball of shit.... the last thing you need to worry about is a camera. Hell, even the TI wearing a handycam increases the risk and the TI has TOTAL control over where that camera is. We already have incidents where the bridle gets caught by the students or TI's arms, legs, head (yes head)... Adding to that that is not exactly a smart move.

Finally, ignoring the snag hazard (which is HUGE) what happens if they drop the camera and it goes right through someones roof, dents their car, or god forbid hits someone?

All this is with a person who has NO IDEA what they are going to do either. Yet they like to think they will get 'the shot'. They won't, they would be lucky to remember to turn the camera on.

Simply put, the risks of a total unknown participant performing correctly is already there..... ADD a task to them and the chance of them performing that as well makes correctly performing EITHER less likely.

Again, how many TI jumps do you have?



I agree with everything you say here Ron. I'll add one or two thoughts, and experiences.

First, for the first few seconds, which just happen to be the most critical few seconds of the skydive (unless shit goes to shit at some point!), a huge percentage (I'd throw out in excess of 75%) can't manage to remember to arch, or if they do remember, they can't get it right. Throw in another/second thing to think about and if they get either, it would more likely be the camera than the arch.

Our practice in the past has been to allow students to take a camera along if they like, though it was always a still camera. That camera would be stowed for the freefall, and could come out under canopy. I allowed a student to carry a camera out in free fall one time years ago. Immediately off the airplane he had both hands stretched out in front of his face with the camera pointed back at us, and it would seem that his feet were "thinking" the same thing. Both legs bent 90 degrees at the hips and legs straight. That's the shit that you can expect to get when you put a camera on the student.

Throw in the earlier opinion that there will be nothing worth viewing from that camera anyway. So, if we look at as a risk/reward equation. It adds considerably to the risk, with virtually zero reward. There's simply not much justification to allow it.

Students tend to ask if they can take their camera along, primarily because they have virtually no understanding of what's involved in a tandem skydive. They also have no upstanding of how they'll preform on said tandem skydive.

I have around 2500 tandems spread out over 13 years. I've seen quite a lot, some of it was pretty damn scary. We'll often have a feel for how any given student will preform, but most will surprise you. It's actually nice to leave the airplane and for the first couple of seconds thinking 'wow, nice arch dude.' We leave a 182 toward the tail, and let it flip. When we're back to earth in that flip, I generally repeat "arch" in the student's ear. Once in a while I'll say "Nice arch." And sometimes it's "ARCH!"

Those of us with a TI rating and a few tandems under out belt will understand the irony in this. I generally will say to my students when I give them their First Jump Certificate "Thanks for not killing me." To which many will respond "Thanks for not killing me!" and my retort is "I trust me."

Those of with opinions, but few to no tandem skydives should refer to my tag line. I'll repeat it for prosperity, in the even that it's changed at some point.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." Chuck Darwin

Another reference that applies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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http://www.dropzone.com/...7;page=unread#unread

Some earlier discussion on the subject.



I have read that thread an nowhere did I see you mention how many TI jumps you have.



Hey man, dont take this dude too seriously.

With no experience he knew that navigator will fly better if loose/open your chest strap (even told not to do it, getting banned from that just did not make any sense).

With no experience he also knew that wingload of 1,4 is ok with 50 to 100 jumps. (broken femur did not change his mind).

Now with no experience of tandems he knows if its ok to give camera to student...

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