Landing patterns

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

seperate landing areas are a good idea.

That may be. The more landing areas the better.

Quote

this past weekend we had a landing collision between two jumpers.
one jumper was an 'experienced' jumper, flying a higher performance canopy. The other jumper was a bit of a 'newbie'. the 'newbie' landed right near the deck. The 'experienced' jumper did his hook turn and came in for a nice landing. that is until he landed into the other guys canopy and dragged the guy a distance.

I saw that collision - the experienced jumper fucked up, plain and simple. That canopy was on the ground before the 'experienced' jumper started his hook - he came in hot and actually carved right into the partially inflated canopy of the 'newbie'. That same 'experienced' jumper did something similar again tonight.

Quote

The 'newbie' shouldnt have tried landing near the hanger, thats where all the higher performance canopy pilots land, and besides that, their are obstacles there (a runway to the left, buildings there, trees, a industrial sight to the right etc etc). There is a huge field connected to this area, where the only obstacles are woods, and the field is large enough to stay over the grass and still not hit the trees with a LONGGG final approach. Its almost always empty/ very light as far as landing traffic goes.

Bullshit. The swoopers don't own the DZ and they don't own that little stretch of land right near the deck. The 'newbie' can land where he wants - it's the responsibility of the person above or behind to land himself safely.

Quote

The 'newbie' flew and landed his slower canopy in an area where people are whipping in. The experienced jumper was already into his hookturn and about to land...
maybe it could have been avoided, maybe it couldnt have. I dont know. but what i do know is that I dont land near the hanger for a reason... and thats my reason.

It certainly could have been avoided. The 'experienced' canopy pilot ought to look where the hell he's going next time. I could have accepted this as just bad luck had it only happened once, but in fact, it's now happened at least twice in two weeks. As mentioned above, it's the responsibility of the guy above or behind to safely land himself no matter what the conditions on the ground. Had this guy been paying attention to his surroundings or known the limits of his abilities this could have been avoided, both times.
Multiple landing areas certainly don't hurt, really, the more the better. However, you can't use the recent incident you mentioned to support your argument.

[FallinWoman 1]

We don't really seem to have a problem with landing patterns. True we only have one king air, but that is still thirteen people in the air at once.
I think that we seem to solve it by when we pull. I tend to pull high (3k-ish) with my 1.08 loading canpoy. Those people loading higher also ted to pull lower, be they belly or free-fliers. I often see guys from the groups after me go beneath me toward the landing area as I hang out up high.
We also were taught to make a wide pattern if we have a slower canopy. If we need to s-turn, we turn away from the landing area. This provides a narrower pattern lane for the smaller canopies behind us to use to land before us.

[billvon 2,426]

>This is a bad subject! Causes lots of discussion.
Actually, that makes it a good subject. That's what this forum is for.
-bill von

[billvon 2,426]

>My mentor taught me, and now I teach everyone else I run into: landing pattern
>is not important, timing is. If two people are landing and one lands at 5:01, and
> the other at 5:02, what difference does it make which direction they are headed?
This is sort of the opposite of what I teach. You can (and I have) land wingtip to wingtip with no problems. During a 120 way, you will often have to land like this - you simply can't float for 119 minutes while the other canopies land. However, even one canopy landing the wrong direction can kill you, even if he lands at a different time than everyone else. (Note that landing at a different time does not equate to having vertical separation during the approach, since canopies can descend at radically different speeds.)
"Staying out of the way" works when you're jumping a student canopy, and when loads are small. Once you get a high performance canopy, and start jumping with more and more people in the air, you have to learn the skills needed to fly in a pack and land with a group of other jumpers. Another option is to land far away, far from both the main landing area and the pattern, but that is often not possible due to terrain and obstacles.
-bill von

[billvon 2,426]

>Last weekend, during a "big way" camp (I'm not sure how big, just lots of
>canopies...and two planes), there was a lot of confusion on the landing pattern.
It was around 38 jumpers. Not very big as Perris formation loads go, actually.
>There was one formation load (two planes) which came down, no winds, but
>the first two folks down crossed each other. Which set up for the wildest few
>minutes I have seen (granted, I have not seen a lot). Some people had seen the
> first guy go from the south, others had only seen the guy from the north.
I saw both. For the other five jumps that day I landed in the grass; on that load I landed about a quarter of a mile away, on the far side of the student landing area. I find it's a good idea to watch the landing area pretty carefully to see things like that developing.
>I have a few observations. As a really new person, perhaps I missed something
> in the above posts (wouldn't be the first time), but isn't loading supposed to have
> the slower, newer jumpers go towards the end of the jump run?
This is not possible on big ways. Everyone exits simultaneously. Opening altitudes are dictated by safety considerations during breakoff, not landing separation considerations.
>As to us newbies learning about S turns, that's what we're taught
S turns are not a good idea when landing in a pack. You can easily run into someone or (more likely) force them into landing somewhere else as they try to avoid you.
>And my last point is simply that if people are following the correct landing pattern
> set by the dz, and not by the jumper in front of them, they should be o.k.
Unfortunately, it is the policy of this DZ (and most others) that the first person down sets the landing direction. This means that under certain conditions (light winds out of the south) you're uncertain of which direction you'll be landing in until the first canopy lands.
>Lemminghood is for lemmings, not for jumpers.
Don't know about that. Us bridge day regulars seem to try our best to emulate those lemmings.
-bill von

[riggerrob 558]

At Pitt Meadows, we try to keep the landing pattern simple.
If there is no wind, everyone lands to the west.
The first guy down sets the landing direction and everyone else follows him.
If the first guy down lands down wind, you are still obliged to follow him, but you have the option of kicking his ass after the fact!
If you get confused, land to the west.
Students and tandems have the right of way.
Students and junior jumpers are encouraged to do their S turns over the fence, then do a straight in final approach.
Senior jumpers have to steer around students and tandems.
Since the tandems open so much higher than everyone else, there are rarely any traffic issues with tandems.
Exit order from the King Air is: big ways out first, then small groups. Belly fliers, then freefliers.
Junior jumpers exit late, followed by students with tandems out last.
This exit order form the King Air usually sorts out the landing sequence.
If you pass anyone under canopy, the faster jumper is responsible for steering around the lower/slower jumper.
Most people with fast canopies open near 2,000' and spiral vigorously to land first.
Most people with slow canopies open at 3,000' or 3500'. This helps to "stack" canopies and minimize "crossing" traffic.
The only exceptions are people landing between the air blades. Only senior jumpers are allowed to land between the air blades.
They discuss the air blade landing pattern before take off. Blade runners follow all the other rules.

[Michele 1]

So, now I'm really confused.
a) is it not the policy of Perris to land south to north in light/no winds? And if the first jumper makes a mistake, I am supposed to repeat it?
b) I should follow the jumper down who sets up a wrong pattern, even if I know it is wrong, and I am landing in the big circle and not the grass, regardless of the winds?
Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I so don't want to do another downwinder, especially if the jumper is going the wrong way and I can safely turn and land into the wind.
I am totally lost now.
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[billvon 2,426]

> is it not the policy of Perris to land south to north in light/no winds?
That is correct.
> And if the first jumper makes a mistake, I am supposed to repeat it?
Also correct.
>I should follow the jumper down who sets up a wrong pattern, even if I know it is wrong, and I am landing in the big
> circle and not the grass, regardless of the winds?
The above is valid for the main landing area (the grass.) Away from the established landing areas (outside both student and experienced landing areas) you can land wherever you want. I'm not sure what the policy is on the student landing area - the school would know.
>I so don't want to do another downwinder, especially if the jumper is going the wrong way and I can safely turn and
> land into the wind.
If you don't like the established direction in any landing area, you can always choose an out, where you can pick your own landing direction.
-bill von

[Kelly 0]

jimbo,.
i agree. Seeing that firsthand, hell, being victem number 2 was enough for me. Shit happens once in a while, taking out 3 people in 2 weeks doesnt. or at least it shouldnt.
"i can not attest to what i did, just what i remember...."
~me, after one too many

[DanG 1]

In response to:
> "Staying out of the way" works when you're jumping a student canopy, and when loads are small. Once you get a high performance canopy, and start jumping with more and more people in the air, you have to learn the skills needed to fly in a pack and land with a group of other jumpers.
Bill, I agree with you. I suppose I did not do a very good job of explaining my point. Learning to fly in a pack and land with a group of jumpers includes learning to control both the horizontal (right and left) and vertical (glide slope/descent rate) movement of your canopy. Most DZ's do not teach people these skills. I spend at least a little time during each descent allowing a 50 jump wonder to spiral past me under his PD-190 because that's all he knows. Then I get to try and float around behind him while he does S-turns on final because he cut his downwind leg too short. If everyone (the VX-66 pilots and the PD-190 pilots alike) would spend a moment looking around and identifying all of the other canopies and pilots around them, then people would be able to take a reasoned approach to avoiding each other. The PD-190 pilot we see me under my Stiletto 135 and think, "Maybe I should let him land first." I would look up and see the VX-90 pilot coming in and say, "Hmm, let me get clear so he can land, then I can swoop in behind him." That way we can achieve vertical and horizontal separation.
I didn't mean to say that landing patterns were bad. Only that landing patterns in and of themselves do not constitute safe canopy control. Just because you entered the landing pattern exactly -where- you wanted to doesn't mean you entered it -when- you should have.
I hope this is more clear. Thanks for taking the time to read my long winded thoughts.
- Dan G

[freeflir29 0]

"50 jump wonder to spiral past me under his PD-190"
Hey! It's 85 and I often spend a lot of time riding in brakes. I do sometimes run into the fact that I rode in brakes long enough to let the faster canopies get down well below me. Now I have some of those students or novice jumpers(really more the problem) that did spiral down and are now all up in the way! They aren't fast enough to beat the really fast canopies but are well below me since I was in brakes. I have made many a straight in landing because of that one. So whats the answer in this case? People flying 97 Stillettos aren't the only ones with traffic problems.
P.S. Only said "bad subject" in that it provokes so many arguments and not a lot gets solved most of the time.
"The sky resembles a back lit canopy...with holes punched through it"- Incubus
Clay

[jfields 0]

This is an issue that I had a tough time with a couple weeks ago. I'm a novice (44 jumps) from a medium sized (King Air & Twin Otter) DZ. The way they deal with landing patterns is that people generally fly a left-hand pattern, and the windsock dictates the landing direction. It seems to work pretty well there. I've never seen anything close to a collision.
I took a road trip to Cross Keys and had a rough time with the patterns. In my "Welcome to the DZ" brief, I was told to land in the direction set by the first jumper to land, without exception. I was also told that I had to use a left-hand pattern. That sounded fine, but it didn't work very well.
Under canopy (a 190 @ 1.1:1), I sometimes saw the first person land in one direction, with other people landing differently while I was still in the air. Maybe it was the "weekend wonders" like myself that weren't following the procedure, but it wasn't working.
Also, there were times when I was out very early in the jump run and was one of the first few people down. If the 1 or 2 people lower than me are on high-performance canopies, I have no idea which way they will land until it is far too late for me to enter my correct pattern. I don't know which way they will hook (I saw all types), so I can't fly across the whole landing area to get into the correct pattern if they land a way I didn't anticipate. I just don't have enough altitude by that time.
From my training, I'm supposed to start my downwind leg at about 1,000', then make a base leg and a final. Under a 190, that covers a lot of territory on all 3 legs. To land in the direction dictated by the first jumper, flying a left pattern, that sometimes took my base leg into the area where the high-performance pilots liked to set up for their landings. Some of them got annoyed. If I'd done the same pattern and direction starting farther downwind, I might have come closer to the trees than I'm comfortable with. I covered over 1/2 the length of the landing area on final.
I need to know where I should be aiming to land and in what direction by 1,500 feet or so in order to get to the right place and begin the proper pattern. If Mr. High Performance is only 500 feet below me, I don't have any indication of how they are going to land when they are still at 1,000 feet.
Any thoughts or suggestions for a novice trying to learn about landing patterns?
Sorry about the long post....
Justin
My Homepage

[skyhawk 2]

at my home dz we have a very long and wide area to land in it split into 3 imaginery sections one is the pit and around it the other is near it (it has a cross) and the other is about 1/2 - 2/3 of the field this is the student area you can however land werever you want , i have landed in the student area quit a few times latly (im starting to learn to hook, very slowly) we also befor the load pic landing direction (via wind) and make sure everyone knows however on no wind days or constantly shifing wind its first person down. we jump a caravan (17 jumpers)
i live my life 14000 ft at a time, nothen else matters, in that 60 seconds or less im free

[Tee 0]

Quote

Also, there were times when I was out very early in the jump run and was one of the first few people down. If the 1 or 2 people lower than me are on high-performance canopies, I have no idea which way they will land until it is far too late for me to enter my correct pattern. I don't know which way they will hook (I saw all types), so I can't fly across the whole landing area to get into the correct pattern if they land a way I didn't anticipate. I just don't have enough altitude by that time.

I have seen that situation all too many times and know how confusing it can be when you are 3rd or 4th out! Tee

[Kelly 0]

jay,
so many of the staff at cross keys have over 4,000 jumps (Read: their flying highly loaded eliptical canopies), add to that the number of relatively new jumpers fresh out of aff and you can have some confusing patterns on your hands. my solution for all that: dump high. Im not talking 6 k or anything, but around 4ish. I wave off at 4 grand and am under canopy by 3 grand. I dont spiral, and i start watching the others right away. When im staying upwind (above 1,000 ft) i dont hold into the wind, instead i just do some lazy turns, running the length of the treeline. This way im able to see the jumpers landing, their constantly on either my right or left. This also gives the time for the newer people who want to spiral down and break the natural 'stack' of canopies setting up to land.
by the time im at 1,000 feet im ready to head downwind. if i have to do a little bit of manuvering on my base to eat up altitude the swoopers have already landed, so im not S turning in airspace where their trying to hook it in, or set up a hook.
I can definitally understand your desire not to be overtop the trees below 1,000 feet. sometimes i turn away from the field, sometimes towards it . it depends on how the winds are, what im above, exactly how much altitude im trying to burn up.
I also tend to land far out in the field, cause the experienced jumpers are landing near the hanger, and most of the fresh-off-AFF jumpers are TRYING to land as close as they can. Many a time ive landed a good distance farther out than AFF students. No biggie, id rather walk back to the hangar then ride to the hospital... ya know?
well anywhoo, thats just my 2 cents. I could be doing stuff totally ass backwards and be a danger to people, but so far nobody has told me that so im pretty sure its an ok plan.
all in all, take what i say with a grain of salt. Im not experienced, but i sure in hell am learning.
kelly
"i can not attest to what i did, just what i remember...."
~me, after one too many

[jfields 0]

Kelly,
I know what you're saying. Some jumps it wasn't a problem. But then again, sometimes it was. Since I'd been told about the high-speed landing area, I didn't try to land there. On a number of jumps, I landed on the far side of the x (student landing area, for those not familiar with Cross Keys) on the landing zone. So I definitely wasn't trying to land right near the hangar. But I was in the air above the high-speed area on my base leg. Running a left-hand pattern with a landing direction from the hangar toward the x, how could I not be?
I got one nasty comment, from someone that flew in front of me, perpendicular to my line of flight. He wasn't really below me, so I don't know what he was doing. I'd been sticking to the pattern. I took it with a grain of salt.
Still, I'd rather not have to land on the other side of the runway or something just to facilitate hook turns by the experienced folks. After all, I was landing in the student-designated area. I wasn't just spiralling down into the high-speed area or something. As long as I'm trying to fly a correct pattern and land in the proper area, I think it is sort of up to the experienced jumpers on elipticals to deal with that. Most of them seem to be fine with student/novice landings. It just seems like a few get pissed off when they can't hook in the exact place they want, when they want, in order to have a surf ending right next to their buddies.
Any experienced jumpers familiar with Cross Keys want to chime in? I'm not trying to start a flame war, but just looking for more information on how to deal with landing patterns there.
Thanks!
Justin
My Homepage

[Luke 0]

It takes poor judgement or planning by both jumpers to have a canopy collision. On the other hand, with very rare exception, only one pilot needs to take action to avoid a collision.
At the very least, the less experienced jumper has the option to choose not to be within the same air space: land somewhere else at a different time or maybe even go on a different load. The experienced swooper should have better spatial awareness and a far broader skills set to draw upon. It is an important measure of a good landing that it shouldn't inconvenience anyone else, for what ever reason. Truely impressive canopy pilots never conflict with others, regardless of what they do. With the exception of record attempts, a really good canopy pilot can deal with all of the challenges mentioned in this thread safely and still impress the hell out of their target audience with their swoop.
On the other hand, an experienced pilot conflicting with a newer jumper whilst executing their super monster ballistic swoop is deeply uncool. To then bawl that less experienced jumper out is even more uncool as it confirms that they do not appreciate the part that they played in that conflict.
The question is: what can I do to stay away from trouble?
There are plenty of answers to that and a predictable and predefined landing pattern is one of them.

[Shark 0]

Quote

At Perris the pattern is set by the first person down, PERIOD. IF you don't like the pattern you land off the grass
any way you like. I think that most DZ have a rule like this.

Same at Elsinore. And we have 3 different landing areas; 2 with grass, the other, weeds. We have the landing "police" to cite you, and if you are the first down setting the pattern the wrong way, you WILL hear it from the jumpers who land after you.

[Designer 0]

Who is the most aware and who is at fault?A mistake in awareness up high(possibly?)can have the horrible results.Ultimately it,s the DZ management ST&A and instructors that need to work together on this one.Several forms of differing Landing pattens exist for your safety.Personally,I prefer the "L" left patten.Not always usuable because of different wind condition.Here, it is when in doubt land north.Sometimes it,s just good common sense to stay out of the "Hot Pilot Zone".This seems to work pretty well.