caldwellbuilder 0 #1 July 24, 2007 Last Sunday, I had a tandem jump that started badly but ended well. On exit, her legs were extended but down, and when her legs went back up they were offset between mine. Her left leg was on the left side of mine and her right leg was between my legs. My right leg, being extended, immediately caused a severe left had spin. I tried to correct with my hands and upper body. Failing to stop the left turn, I felt just her right leg between mine and then tried to push her body into position with my left hand. That failed because her legs retracted preventing her body from sliding over. The speed of the spin was such that I could not come up with a good procedure to correct it. I would have pulled the drogue release early if the videographer had not stopped the spin. Once the spin stopped it was easy to reposition and the remainder of the dive was uneventful. I have 750 tandems and would appreciate help in establishing a procedure for recovery. My tandem course did not cover this kind of problem. The speed with which this went bad was phenomenal, and the g-forces can cause simple movements to become near impossible. You can watch the video by going to www.skydivedallas.com , click on tandems, click on videos in the sidebar. scroll to Sunday July 22 and click on Debra Cannon. Later, Will Caldwell D-5598 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybeergodd 0 #2 July 25, 2007 I saw the video and I have a couple pieces of advice. Something I've learned over 1400 tandems, fly your own body, It looks like a big contributing factor of the turn was you fighting with her arms. If the drogue is out leave her body position alone until you are in control of the skydive then worry about her body position...Again FLY your own body first!!..secondly a big floppy jumpsuit would give you more control over the student. You can use that drag to your advantage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #3 July 25, 2007 Fly your body first, then fix the student after you've established control.I've never jumped a student with a Strong rig, but there seems to be quite alot of play" between the student and instructor. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kimblair13 0 #4 July 25, 2007 I think the helmet you were wearing might have something to do with that spin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foggy 0 #5 July 25, 2007 All of the above. Watch the Strong sidespin video again (its part of the Strong "packet"). Do solo sidespin recovery drill dives. Buy your video guy beer Foggy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #6 July 25, 2007 Quote the videographer stopped the spin. Very cool! That is almost as cool as you asking for advice, and not a bunch of hundred jump wonders offerin deir advice cauze dey got it all figgured out... Very freakin cool indeed…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
napaguy99 0 #7 July 25, 2007 The videographer stopped the spin?? I'm curious as to the experience of the video guy. Has he seen this happen before? Also, coincidently is he an AFFI? As an AFFI and vidiot myself I never thought I would see something like that. It never occurred to me that a video guy could get in there and stop a tandem spin. Kudos to the 2 of you for working it out. "Let the misinterpretation and attacks begin." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #8 July 25, 2007 Quote I think the helmet you were wearing might have something to do with that spin. ......... Be safe Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #9 July 25, 2007 Could the spin be because your had your hands on the student for over 20 seconds while trying to stop the spin? The instructor must learn to out fly the student. Be safe Ed www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #10 July 25, 2007 Quotesecondly a big floppy jumpsuit would give you more control over the student. You can use that drag to your advantage. If we are talking about tools for the job, then I think well-fitting booties can't be beaten. I'd much rather have leverage than drag. But I'm with the others, fly your body first. I have a scary video of my own from my early tandem days with a combination of baggy suit, a poor student position, not outflying the student compounded with a poor decision, that could have gone bad but luckily ended up well, that I should really get around to posting one day when I have the courage! I would also say probably best not to name your student in case they do a search on their name and come back to this thread and reach the opinion that you "did something wrong", but it's tricky since there's no other way to reference the video otherwise. Would you like me to download the video, rename it, then upload it to Skydivingmovies.com to remove the link?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #11 July 25, 2007 As the rest of the instructors have stated fly your body first. The biggest tool in a tandem instructors tool box is their legs. I noticed that it really did not appear as if you tried to use your legs to correct this. On normal tandems without video experiment with different body positions that would maximize your control also try just using your legs to fly the skydive (while there will be times you will need to use your arms learning to fly with just your legs will increase your ablities so when presented with an issue such as this one with your legs and arms you would have been able to control it). Remember get big and out fly them, I will rarely correct anything going on in a skydive by changing how the student is positioned. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mixoligist 0 #12 July 25, 2007 They said it...FLY YOUR BODY. Too many instructors try to "fix" the students body postion only causing things to turn more and turn faster. It matters not what a student does to me...I will out fly them. Poised exits with minimal time before drougue pitching in the begining will help you also. If a vidiot has to help me on a tandem I will re-think my career choice...seriously...the life you save may be your own. B.S.B.D. .................................. Better you than me .................................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mixoligist 0 #13 July 25, 2007 just watched your video and landing... You caused all of that...it had nothing to do with your student. Re-think what your doing...... .................................. Better you than me .................................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #14 July 25, 2007 Where is the video? I cant find it here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mixoligist 0 #15 July 25, 2007 Quote Watch the Strong sidespin video again (its part of the Strong "packet"). Do solo sidespin recovery drill dives. This was not a side spinThis was an uncontrollable turn by an out of control instructor. I swear tandem ratings must come in cereal boxes.................................. Better you than me .................................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #16 July 25, 2007 QuoteI swear tandem ratings must come in cereal boxes I do not understand the point of making belittling statements concerning cereal boxes. Throw the first stone if you are perfect and are never subject to make a mistake oh almighty one. Why not just offer this instructor advice as to how to make himself a better instructor as he so humbly requested in the OP?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #17 July 25, 2007 Quote Quote Watch the Strong sidespin video again (its part of the Strong "packet"). Do solo sidespin recovery drill dives. This was not a side spinThis was an uncontrollable turn by an out of control instructor. I swear tandem ratings must come in cereal boxes Not a TM/TI, but always wanting to understand more about flying. Could you provide some specifics as to what the TM was doing wrong? I can see poor leg positioning, I can see problems with his hand position, but don't understand why arms didn't come up or legs didn't wrap or move to the correct position. Any additional information would be helpful/appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mixoligist 0 #18 July 25, 2007 QuoteQuoteI swear tandem ratings must come in cereal boxes I do not understand the point of making belittling statements concerning cereal boxes. Throw the first stone if you are perfect and are never subject to make a mistake oh almighty one. Why not just offer this instructor advice as to how to make himself a better instructor as he so humbly requested in the OP? Because it's true and I'm right. Because other peoples lives are at stake. Because 2 students fell out of the harness. Because some people just shouldn't be allowed to be a T.I. just cause they meet the requirements. Because he shouldn't need the internet to clue himself in. I say it like it is....If I sound "almighty"...tough shit................................... Better you than me .................................. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sgt_ludy 0 #19 July 25, 2007 hm. shitty exits can happen, also crap drogue pulls and ugly frap hats , but to me this is absolutely you inducing and continuing the spin. to me it looks like you are taking the spin right from the exit! like another poster mentioned before, youre arms are on the student instead of trying to stop the spin. on my TI formation i had to make every single jump as a TI drogueless from 13k down to 6k -> helps you to appreciate some wide suits with drag, no RW-suits ...and did the landing just look like a downwind landing, with the canopy falling to the ground in FRONT of you? i´m really in no position to show with my finger at you (900 jumps, 150 tandems), but mabye you should make one or two jumps as TI with an experienced jumper as passenger and try some drogueless jumps, with the passenger NOT acting cooperatively. cheers, a Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #20 July 25, 2007 Quote Why not just offer this instructor advice as to how to make himself a better instructor as he so humbly requested in the OP? I applaud the OP for posting this. It's not often that instructors admit mistakes in here while looking for assistance, primarily because there's a fear of responses like mixologist's. In this case, there were a few mistakes. The drogue throw wasn't particularly stable, and after that the TI spent all his energy trying to fix a student who actually had decent body position. Plenty of people have already said it, so I'm just reiterating for him. Fly yourself, not the student. We have the advantage of knowledge and experience, and thus should have no problem outflying our students, *especially* when they're basically doing what we tell them (arching), as was the case in this video. I'll sometimes reach down and adjust a student to make my life easier, or kick their legs to remind them to get 'em back, but when they're really trying to hose me, I tune them out to some extent and just outfly 'em. Arch harder, feel the air, fly the air. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #21 July 25, 2007 Please post it on skydivingmovies.com so we can download it and look at it in slo-mo. I need to see the exit in slo-mo to be sure of what I think happened. I am seeing two things here, and looking at the exit in slo-mo would help me firm it up before I post it here (in reply to your request).Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #22 July 25, 2007 The difference between someone who is in the sport for 30 years and someone who is new is very apparent here. If your D # is correct and I am sure it is, the reason you have been in the sport so long is, you can check your pride at the door and ask questions to make yourself better. Please ignore anyone who is not assisting you, they know not what they say and I am fairly confident will not be around in 30 years from now. Your time in alone should be respected, and is on my end, good luck. Some very good pointers here, that I have read. I have not been able to view the video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #23 July 26, 2007 Absolute. The original poster is a good skydiver, and one of the most humble people I know. I don't think I would have ever have had the guts to post his question on here - purely because of posters who have never ever screwed up a skydive attacking him. If he posted the question wanting to learn, how many other people out there have had something similar happen to them but didn't tell anyone out of fear? I've videoed multiple skydives with this guy, and he's my all-time favorite AFF partner, and I would never hesitate to send any friend up on a tandem jump with him. Remember - when you graduated student status, you gained a license to continue learning. The ones who last a long time in this sport never stop learning. Wendy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 3 #24 July 26, 2007 I'm not a ti, but one day plan to get rated, so forgive me if my question on this is obvious. watching the video, the TI's legs did not do anything, would it have helped stop the spin to drop knee/leg down, in addition to using arms? Watching this video just taught me a lesson for when i eventually get my rating.. when things start to go wrong, take a deep breath, before panicking. though, I guess there really isn't too much time to do that. ... Thank you for sharing the video. edit: finished reading the rest of the replies and i see my question was already answered.CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #25 July 26, 2007 QuoteBecause it's true and I'm right. Because other peoples lives are at stake. Because 2 students fell out of the harness. Because some people just shouldn't be allowed to be a T.I. just cause they meet the requirements. You know what you sound like? PA in the form of an attached picture removed by slotperfect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
