Tandem recovery procedures

[johnny1488 1]

I cant get the video to work on my mac regardless of what browser I use, Please someone upload it to Skydivingmovies.com.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[slotperfect 7]

No matter what form they take (pictures or text) a PA is a PA and is still not allowed in the forums.

[/end warning]

Arrive Safely

John

[AFFI 0]

That may be my first PA, and my first warning, so I have been able to show some restrain over the years and I should have shown better judgment today.

I apologize to the community.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AggieDave 6]

A neat trick that works when the other things mentioned haven't worked is to stick a leg(s) straight down. I swear it acts like a rudder and stops the craziness. This is a proceedure once the drogue is out, obviously.

I typically fly knees low, which "lock" the student into position anyways (beyond what the harness can do for you), which helps me. Eitherway, I can tell you that after over 1000 tandems each student is a new experience and they'll still surprise you if you're not ready for the unexpected. Good luck!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Absolute. The original poster is a good skydiver, and one of the most humble people I know. I don't think I would have ever have had the guts to post his question on here - purely because of posters who have never ever screwed up a skydive attacking him.
Wendy

I am with Wendy, although I do not know Will (the OP) very well I have had the opportunity to see him in action working with students and he is a terrific instructor and a really nice person.

After so many years in the sport and illustrating a willingness to continue to learn and better himself, more respect is deserved than comparing his accomplishments to a Cracker Jack prize.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[slotperfect 7]

OK - I figured out the slo-mo thing (DOH!), and here is my take on it.

-I think the side attachments were either a smidge on the loose side *or* tightened down a little unevenly. There was just enough room for your hips and hers to slide apart sideways a little.
-Her hips slide to the left immediately upon pushing off the airplane - it looks like she pushes off along with you, a split second before you do, making her hips slide slight to the left of yours.
-That bit of unevenness (or something) causes the left turn on exit, and when you get about 90 degrees through that turn the pair rolls right slightly, which cuts you in a bit on the right side. (Right before the drogue throw) That starts the momentum of a left turn.

-At that point, in my opinion, it was your body position (not hers) that caused the spin to continue.

-Your student gave you a dynamite body position right off the edge of the door - symmetrical arms, nice arch at the pelvis, and symmetrical legs thrown back between yours.
-You knew something was up, but rather than flying through it you began to use your arms and legs to correct the student. Since you are using your arms to correct her, your only flying surface is your legs, which seem to be knees down and mostly straight, possibly driving you around in the same direction.

-Then your teamie pops in and stops the left turn momentum.

-Right there you are digging in really hard with your right arm to square things up. A side note here . . . be careful putting your arms down there, a freaked out student can wrap you up really easily.
-Right after the arm dig, once you think it's flying OK, it registers on your face and your whole body position changes - your arms come out into clean air flying, your legs are up high and off your student flying by themselves, and you look relaxed. It's right here that you shake your head thinking "what the hell was that?" Then you start geeking the camera.
-Believe it or not her body position here is the same as is was right after exit - she is arching like a champ, but still cocked off to the left side a little. The big difference is that you are relaxed and flying through it, correcting it naturally rather than manhandling it.

The moral of the story:

-Side attachments need to be nice and snug and even
-Ignore the student and fly yourself first, fix minor problems later after the drogue throw and handle checks. If you can't fix them, just fly it yourself.
-Don't put your hands/arms where the student can trap them.

That's how I see it. I hope that helps you.

Arrive Safely

John

[slotperfect 7]

Quote

I apologize to the community

Nice!
Thanks!

Arrive Safely

John

[sgt_ludy 0]

nice analysis. well done, thanks!

[tuffyjensen 0]

Of course you gave a very good analysis. I would have to agree and feel there are 3 points to help alleviate this from happening to a TI.

1. I think that a very tight hookup is very crucial in keeping the student close and allowing you as the TI to out fly the student (I don't see that much separation and think that was done just fine).

2. Get stable before throwing the drogue, I think this was your main contributing factor that started the spin. The drogue bridle just misses your feet leading to suggest a head down attitude and it was also rotating around as some exits do. The throwing of the drogue at that point created a pivot point and accelerated the rotation into a spin. Yes throw the drogue as quick as possible, but stability with out comes first.

3. As stated many times once in that position fly yourself first, the student second. She had great position just one leg ended up on the outside, should be correctable or not even need corrected. As you probably tell your students just take a deep breath and relax.

I wish all my students had that good of body position on exit and landing. Which I would caution landing a slide in tandem in the pea pit, a foot can dig in quickly and roll an ankle or worse. If you want to prove your accuracy then land next to it.

Kudos for the post.

Blue Skies,
Dennis Jensen

Be safe and have fun, in that order!

Be Safe and Have Fun, in that order!
Tuffy

[riggerrob 558]

Aggie Dave,

We will just have to disagree on this point (knees low).
The longer I do tandems (3,700 at last count) the less I worry about student position. The worse they fly, the more I arch through my hips. If the student is truly unstable, I land with tired cheek muscles and stretched hip flexor muscles.

[riggerrob 558]

Leverage!
It is all about leverage!

Start by teaching your student to do a small - banana - version of the arch with her arms tucked in and her feet kicking you on the buttocks.
Meanwhile, the TI does a huge X arch, stretching his/her arms and legs as far out as possible. This quickly gives the TI double the leverage to control turns, etc.
The more unstable the student, the farther I extend my arms and legs.

If the student has a poor body position, I may make on attempt at hooking their legs (after the drogue is out), then usually revert to Plan A (huge X arch).

[AggieDave 6]

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Aggie Dave,

We will just have to disagree on this point (knees low).
The longer I do tandems (3,700 at last count) the less I worry about student position. The worse they fly, the more I arch through my hips. If the student is truly unstable, I land with tired cheek muscles and stretched hip flexor muscles.

That's fine. It just really works for me. Also with my size (and weight) it helps a little with the speed for the video guy/gal. Its been a long time that I've truely had a wild ride from a student, I think it goes back to a conversation you and I had a few years ago about proper training of the student.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

Caught your other thread, nice work!

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

One thing you might also try is pushing your students hips from side to side under your hips. If you shift them under yourself you can use then like a rudder. Its a pretty effortless way to turn. In the long run it is a lot better to just let the student do what they do and fly yourself.

[bob.dino 0]

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Caught your other thread, nice work!

Will's other thread, in which in he updates folk on the actions he's taken to avoid a recurrence of the problem.

[camamel 0]

Hi Will

Usually I don't spend too much time on this forum but in your case it is clear that you want to improve yourself. Don't you have an experience tandem master at your place that give all the others some guide lines?
I saw your video couples times and I have to admit that I read only a few of the post reply not all of them. Iam not familiar with the Strong system either. But after 3200 + tandems and being a TME for UPT for 15 years here are my comments.
Since the beginning I always told my new TM the same think. In first place always try to avoid to put yourself into trouble. To do so in your case you need more controls(more materials) in your upper arms jumpsuit. You need to emphasis passenger body position and arms on harness on exit.
Here at my DZ I have a Cessna Gran Caravan so the door is pretty much the same as a Twin Otter.
If you look carefully at your exit you'll see that your problem start wright there, in the plane, on the edge of the door. Your passenger has there left foot on the floor. By dooing so you never know where this foot will end up on exit, inside or outside your legs.
At my place passengers are on their knees in the door and both their knees are between my legs that way your chance to have theirs legs still between yours after exit is a lot better.

Feel free to cantact me any time I will be more than happy to help.

Thanks


Richard

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.

[Reginald 0]

I’m just going to chime in here and only on things I can speak to with some authority (which is more than many posters do). I am not a TI so I will not attempt to speak to the exit or situation in the air.

What I can speak to is the following:

1. Landing – The winds were ZERO or darn close to them this day and all weekend. The TI slid in the student in the peas. Yes the canopy fell forward not back, as it is likely to so on a zero wind day. Looks to be a good landing to me.

2. Ability as an instructor – I know Will and in fact work with him as an AFFI. Will is a competent instructor and is someone that I would be comfortable putting a friend or family member with. He had a bad situation in the air and sought advice from more experienced TI’s at the DZ and from people online. I applaud him for this. Anyone that claims never to have had a situation is probably in denial or just has not had theirs happen yet. I’ll give Will points for stepping up and trying to learn from his. It’s more than most people will do.

Blue Skies,
Ron

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[camamel 0]

Landing is perfect and wright on the spot.
English is not my first language so I want to make sure I say the wright thing here because from my point of view it look like that some posters on this forum are not there to help there friends skydivers.
This instructor want to improve himself, to do so he decide to stand in front of all of us. For this he have all my respect.
Will, any time you need a job you will be more then welcome at my place.

When you think you're good...this is when you become dangerous.