Stilleto as a Student Canopy

[NWFlyer 2]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=697267

Hope you have madder mad skillz.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[burtonjm 0]

I'd love to see this argument play out in person. My guess is EFS would just smile and nod to the advice he was given and then disregard it anyways. Or maybe there'd be a heated argument and some fisticuffs

This shit, right here, is OK

[d123 1]

PD said it's OK! This has to mean som'thing!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[NovaTTT 1]

EFS:

Unlike yourself, I am going to make this post and then quit the thread. This highlights the one thing about this thread that is completely annoying; you keep saying you're done posting but you keep coming back. Stop it. Just stop.

Insofar as your piloting skills go, maybe you are able to handle the Stil190. Maybe not. One thing is for sure: the posters on Dorkzone haven't seen you fly, know nothing about your progression, your skills or your actual heads-upedness.

So it's a complete waste of time to post here. Soup to nuts, alpha to omega, this thread is a waste of all of our time.

You're trying to stimulate discussion? Do a search and see all the other Hundred Jump Wonders who have stirred up discussion. Then see how many of them are still in the sport.

You've not said, inspired or created anything that we've not seen or heard before. Many times. Yet you wonder at the advice you are given against what you're doing?

If you want affirmation, take it to your instructors and piloting coach. You do have a piloting coach, right?

Otherwise, you're just going to make a lot of people concerned because we've all seen HJWs hammer themselves into the ground, fuck themselves out of life and limb, and in so doing, bring general unhappiness to those who tried to help.

So do us all a favour and stop posting. Everything that needs saying has been said. You're not going to convince anyone that you're better than the average skydiver and they're not going to convince you to step back and remember the sky will always be there.

So be safe, don't fuck up and do what you said you would do: GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS POST!!!


Nova

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[jlmiracle 7]

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That's it, I'm done posting to this thread.

I mean it, this is the last one.

see? I'm done

LOL. I don't think he's gonna get it.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[SkyjunkySean 0]

I'm still in it....just a crap load slower.....n was a 200 jump wonder LMAO I'm glad titanium don't affect exit weight too much

[airtwardo 6]

edit: jt - what does "B13" mean? If it's funny, I want to know. later

BINGO!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[timmyfitz 0]

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if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place;

If I'm "flying right" then I should have very little concern about other people that may cut me off at the last few seconds before landing, even though I saw them from far away? How did that work out for Roger, who was "flying right".

as i recall, the subject was doing a "panic' turn to avoid someone cutting you off -- and as i also recall, roger was hit from above and behind so a possible "panic" turn was not in play and so that particular collision is not relevant to the point you raised. Try again.

Your response to me was

"if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off".

I just pointed out that you can fly right(Roger), see people coming from far away and shit can still happen at the last second that is out of your control.

Try again.

(a canopy can not stay fully inflated after it has been cutaway)

Roger was not cut off.

Roger didn't see it coming.

Ergo, his collision doesn't fall within the parameters of either my "flying right" comment OR the point you're trying to make about a "panic" turn to avoid someone you can see, who cut you off.

You are saying Roger was flying right. Roger didn't see it coming. Shit did happen at the last minute that was out of his control.

Thank you for agreeing.

(a canopy can not stay fully inflated after it has been cutaway)

[kallend 1,623]

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***

As for Kallend, who is the guy who seems to be on your side with this issue, yes he did start flying a Stiletto early on, and it worked out well for him.

I'm not on his side since I have no idea of his background, attitude and ability. I'm just pointing out that some training programs and some prior experiences can enable a higher performance canopy to be flown safely with lower jump numbers than the norm. I took the advice of a very experienced jumper who had seen me fly. Generic advice on the internet is not too useful., IMO.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BobMoore 0]

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edit: jt - what does "B13" mean? If it's funny, I want to know. later

I think it is another of those non sequiturs

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[robinheid 0]

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if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place;

If I'm "flying right" then I should have very little concern about other people that may cut me off at the last few seconds before landing, even though I saw them from far away? How did that work out for Roger, who was "flying right".

as i recall, the subject was doing a "panic' turn to avoid someone cutting you off -- and as i also recall, roger was hit from above and behind so a possible "panic" turn was not in play and so that particular collision is not relevant to the point you raised. Try again.

Your response to me was

"if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off".

I just pointed out that you can fly right(Roger), see people coming from far away and shit can still happen at the last second that is out of your control.

Try again.

(a canopy can not stay fully inflated after it has been cutaway)

Roger was not cut off.

Roger didn't see it coming.

Ergo, his collision doesn't fall within the parameters of either my "flying right" comment OR the point you're trying to make about a "panic" turn to avoid someone you can see, who cut you off.

You are saying Roger was flying right. Roger didn't see it coming. Shit did happen at the last minute that was out of his control.

Thank you for agreeing.

(a canopy can not stay fully inflated after it has been cutaway)

I did not say or imply that Roger was flying right. I said:

Roger was not cut off.
Roger didn't see it coming.

So give it up, get back on topic, and maybe even man up and admit that you tried a cute little word game and got caught with your pants on the ground.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[virgin-burner 1]

dont you worry dude, honestly, i jump a 119er at an almost 1.8 WL on a safire2, was thinking about a 135 stiletto at an about just as outraging WL, but thought, i'd rather get a more modern design..

we all fuck up at a certain point, some walk away from it, if it was painful enough, some of us will even learn from that experience..

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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

LIVE by that; and give a rat's ass about what you happen to read on dorkzone..

post less, jump more often; it will get you further.. and hey, robinheid has to say a couple things about it, by about ten times fold the experience i have..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[humbled1 0]

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EFS:

Unlike yourself, I am going to make this post and then quit the thread. This highlights the one thing about this thread that is completely annoying; you keep saying you're done posting but you keep coming back. Stop it. Just stop.

Insofar as your piloting skills go, maybe you are able to handle the Stil190. Maybe not. One thing is for sure: the posters on Dorkzone haven't seen you fly, know nothing about your progression, your skills or your actual heads-upedness.

So it's a complete waste of time to post here. Soup to nuts, alpha to omega, this thread is a waste of all of our time.

You're trying to stimulate discussion? Do a search and see all the other Hundred Jump Wonders who have stirred up discussion. Then see how many of them are still in the sport.

You've not said, inspired or created anything that we've not seen or heard before. Many times. Yet you wonder at the advice you are given against what you're doing?

If you want affirmation, take it to your instructors and piloting coach. You do have a piloting coach, right?

Otherwise, you're just going to make a lot of people concerned because we've all seen HJWs hammer themselves into the ground, fuck themselves out of life and limb, and in so doing, bring general unhappiness to those who tried to help.

So do us all a favour and stop posting. Everything that needs saying has been said. You're not going to convince anyone that you're better than the average skydiver and they're not going to convince you to step back and remember the sky will always be there.

So be safe, don't fuck up and do what you said you would do: GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS POST!!!


Nova

+1

beautifully put!

"Tell ya the truth, I don't think this is a brains kind of operation."

[piisfish 135]

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we all fuck up at a certain point, some walk away from it, if it was painful enough, some of us will even learn from that experience..

did you learn ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[timmyfitz 0]

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if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place;

Person A "flying right" has no bearing on whether person B may do something stupid at the last second. It helps that person A is predictable to other jumpers but it does not prevent other people from making mistakes. Shit can still happen at the last second that is out of jumper A's control and may panic turn.

Enough said.

[robinheid 0]

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if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place;

Person A "flying right" has no bearing on whether person B may do something stupid at the last second. It helps that person A is predictable to other jumpers but it does not prevent other people from making mistakes. Shit can still happen at the last second that is out of jumper A's control and may panic turn.

Enough said.

Poorly said, even if the subject is every kind of "stupid... s---" that can happen.

Being a noob yourself, I guess you've never heard of the piloting maxim: "It takes two to collide but only one to avoid."

Moreover, no matter how hard you try to twist, backtrack and ignore what you yourself said to start this tangent within the thread, the the subject is not every kind of "stupid... s---" that can possibly happen; the subject is the very specific SS of being "cut off" and thus doing a "panic" turn.

So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place.

And I add now: "Flying right" includes always having your head on a swivel so that you always know where every other canopy is, thereby minimizing or eliminating the chance of "s--- still (happening) at the last second that is out of (your) control" so that you "panic" turn.

Which brings me back to EFS4LIFe and his experience level. One of the really - really - important elements to flying right is knowing how to fly a standard, aircraft-like pattern with at least a downwind, base and final leg.

Several things happen when you fly a good pattern:

a) it's easier to land where you want;

b) makes it easier for others to see and predict your flight path; and

c) allows you to shift some of your attention from where you're going to where everyone else is.

This last point is among the most important. Years ago, I developed a "follow-the-leader" training program where low-timers would follow an instructor/coach through the pattern so that they could develop their "eye" for how a pattern looked - and develop confidence in how it worked.

It was designed primarily to help low-timers with their navigation and accuracy, but it had an unexpected benefit too: my students reported that, by flying the pattern, they knew where they were going so they could pay more attention to seeing and avoiding "people getting in the way, anything." (Skydiving #181, p.28).

This thread is so long I can't remember if EFS4LIFE has talked about that part of his training but, Stiletto or monster truck, flying a good pattern is a key component of "flying right" because it really helps low-timers and high-timers alike to fly their canopies more accurately and predictably, and minimize or eliminate the chance of a "panic" turn because somebody else did something stupid at the last second.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[timmyfitz 0]

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So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place.

Unless they do something stupid at the last second that was unexpected and not avoidable.

[robinheid 0]

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So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place.

Unless they do something stupid at the last second that was unexpected and not avoidable.

Then you're not flying right.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[rehmwa 2]

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Then you're not flying right.

and about as useful as "to avoid accidents, don't get into any"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ianmdrennan 2]

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So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place.

If you think, for one second, it's not possible for someone to sneak up on you, you're a danger in the air.

You should fly, always, like everyone is trying to kill you. That said, it's totally possible to 'fly right' and have someone place you in harms way without you knowing until it's actually happening.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mnealtx 0]

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So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place.

Unless they do something stupid at the last second that was unexpected and not avoidable.

Then you're not flying right.

Bullcrap. With all your bragging about how long you've been around the sport, you should DAMN well know that 'shit happens'.

By your 'logic', since Roger Nelson was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision.

By your 'logic', since Bob Holler was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision.

Etc, etc, etc...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[robinheid 0]

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So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place.

If you think, for one second, it's not possible for someone to sneak up on you, you're a danger in the air.

You should fly, always, like everyone is trying to kill you. That said, it's totally possible to 'fly right' and have someone place you in harms way without you knowing until it's actually happening.

Ian

If you're flying right, no one should be able to sneak up on you.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[ianmdrennan 2]

Nonsense.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[robinheid 0]

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So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place.

Unless they do something stupid at the last second that was unexpected and not avoidable.

Then you're not flying right.

Bullcrap. With all your bragging about how long you've been around the sport, you should DAMN well know that 'shit happens'.

By your 'logic', since Roger Nelson was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision.

By your 'logic', since Bob Holler was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision.

Etc, etc, etc...

Fail.

The logic goes this way:

Timmyfitz said low-time Stiletto pilot efs4life might make a "panic" turn if someone cut him off at the last moment.

I said: "If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place."

Neither Roger nor (as I understand it) Bob were cut off -- so their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos.

Please stay on-topic.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[Ron 7]

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I said: "If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place

Neither Roger nor (as I understand it) Bob were cut off -- so their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos.

Please stay on-topic.

Your logic is flawed.

You are claiming that you can "fly right" and be able to avoid having to do a turn to avoid a collision. BUT you are claiming that you can "fly right" and not be able to avoid a collision.

When, in fact, the person who tries to avoid was more aware than the guy that just got hit.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334