Land with student or with his stuff?

[bmcd308 0]

I landed with my student's (off AFF - coach jump) cutaway main and freebag this weekend. This resulted in my not being able to debrief him after his landing, and I worry that he felt a little abandoned. I did not really think about it before, it may have appeared to him that I thought the dropzone's main and freebag were more important than he was, since he was left to fend for himself under a reserve while I landed off the dz. Thoughts?

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www.jumpelvis.com

[cvfd1399 0]

If he/she made it back to the DZ I say sure go for the gear he/she has help at the dz if they got hurt, and to calm them down. If he/she had a cutaway and landed off the dz and you went for the gear instead of landing with them to calm them down and help them if there were hurt then I as that person would be pissed.

[jimoke 0]

I can say as an aff instructor, after They pull, we track and pull usually by 3k 2000 feet or so lower than our student. I have a 1.8 wingloading, so the difference is hard to close to initiate dialog with my student. some insructors fly with a radio....its a great idea. although this was a coach jump? nobody has a radio? I guess once a person is under thier own parachute,reserve or otherwise, as of jump #1 they are truly on their own and must land their own parachute safely,on or off-field, as they were trained to do.
going after gear is fine, AFTER it has landed! as long as you don't hose yourself while your chasing it. canopies cost a lot of money, at some dz's they are very easy to lose in a forest. so someone at least watching where it went is a plus.
Stay Safe,
Jim OKe

The ground always, remembers where you are!

[Morcyk 0]

I wouldn't think anything of the instructor going for the gear. I know what I need to do and I know I'm supposed to land at the DZ if possible. That gear's expensive and as long as it takes me to get to the ground, there's always a ton of people down there to help me out if I need it already.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Another reason why we use three radios: one on the student, one on a "ground" instructor, and the last on one of the in-air instructors on the dive. That, of course, works in your situation up to the point that you have cleared a student off of radio. Still, even if the guy is off radio we always have an employee or other volunteer racing off in a DZ vehicle to fetch the cutaway. If I see something landing off near me I am going to land near it and pick it up.

I still don't understand why you couldn't still debrief your student after you got back with the main.

[bodypilot1 0]

AFF student has cutaway= Land with student, fuck the gear, the student is more important.

Student coach jump= Land with gear "if possible".
It may be costly to them should they lose it.
They are off Instructor supervision and should be up on all the emergency procedures, and able to land safely under their reserve.

If you see the gear will be easy to find after being cutaway, or you see someone is already on getting the gear, land with the student.

Just my .02


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[feuergnom 22]

Quote

I landed with my student's (off AFF - coach jump) cutaway main and freebag this weekend

just for my understanding: does that mean you caught the stuff in the air or did you land near the main?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[riggerrob 558]

We discussed this on an earlier thread.

In a perfect world - after a cutaway - the victim steers his reserve to the nearest safe field, ideally the DZ.
#2 lands beside the victim
#3 lands beside the main
#4 lands beside the freebag
#5 lands beside manifest
#6 videos the frivolities.

Clearly, the fewer people on the dive, the fewer people can land away from the victim.

If the victim/student is hanging under a reserve and steering back towards the DZ, then he does not "NEED" his instructor's help for landing.

Radio assistance might be nice, but on half the DZs, radio is handled by another staff member who stays on the ground.
At Pitt Meadows, we leave the radio in the pea gravel bowl and there is usually another senior staff member keeping an eye on operations. She can grab the radio if an instructor has to land out.

Then it becomes a 50/50 judgement whether to chase the main or the student.

Oh, and trying to catch cutaway mains - under canopy - is dangerous. Far wiser to land beside the cutaway main and walk back with it in hand.

Finally, I do not understand the original comment about not being able to debrief the student.
A 15 minute delay between landing and debriefing is normal. Most students need that much time to calm down to the point that they can put sentences together.
Hee!
Hee!

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

Quote

I landed with my student's (off AFF - coach jump) cutaway main and freebag this weekend

just for my understanding: does that mean you caught the stuff in the air or did you land near the main?

No he did not catch this in the air - he wouldn't be breathing right now if had even tried, cause if he would have tried that little stunt and survived, I would have killed him later.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[bmcd308 0]

>>I still don't understand why you couldn't still debrief your student after you got back with the main.<<

I did. It was just later. I landed in a safe place near the cutaway main and freebag, but it was far less accessible by vehicle than I would have liked, which resulted in a fairly long hike back to the car after the fairly long process of staring at the main in a tree wishing we had a saw.

So I did give him a debrief, I just was not around for the initial excitement of landing a reserve for the first time.

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www.jumpelvis.com

[bmcd308 0]

>>you caught the stuff in the air or did you land near the main?<<

Landed near. I watched them to the ground holding in deep brakes, then set up to land in the closest available safe area so I could walk back to where they were.

At my dropzone, there are great places to land everywhere because it is all farmland around the dz. The freebag and main found a clump of trees, though.

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www.jumpelvis.com

[Remster 24]

Quote

I just was not around for the initial excitement of landing a reserve for the first time.

I'm sure he would not have been in the best state for a debrief at that point anyways.

Remster

[skydiverjerry 0]

hay dud,
sounds to me like you did good,
1 you were aware that your student had a mal (you would be amazed at how many instructors dont see that when it happens,

2, you could see that the guy was ok and could land on the dz.

3, you landed and retrieved an expensive piece of equipment.

4, you are still conserned for yoiur student and the quality of experience you can give him.
good for you,

now to a suggestion, next time talk to the student at the first oppertunity (explain to them that what you did and what they should do (following the gear) are two diffrent things) as long as you do debrief them you will give them good instruction.

it sounds to me like you got your shit together,
as long as you can land safe and your students safe your doing good.

blue skies and well done.

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[AndyAnderson 0]

"You doing good"

AA

[Scrumpot 1]

A coaching jump is far different in regards to your obligations than that of a "student" (as like in AFF) type jump. Although as one other JM pointed out earlier, after a STUDENT in that situation pulls, they are out-of-there & much too low to be responsible for canopy ride considerations; keep in mind too, that UNLIKE AFF you, as a coach are NOT responsible for that newbies pull. Those are the differing points, whereas an AFF JM OWNS a STUDENT's PC (or ripcord) below a certain pull alt.

As others have also already stated... you done right.
C-YA,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

an AFF JM OWNS a STUDENT's PC (or ripcord) below a certain pull alt.

I'd rather put it as "partcial owner".

If the student doesn't pull at the asigned altitude as planned for the skydive, I will pull it for him.
BUT, should I not be able to get to that pilot chute, THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE for the deployment of a canopy below 2000ft.



Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[feuergnom 22]

thx for clarification

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Ron 7]

Not following this all.

I will add this.

If I am going to land off I am going to land near a person, not equipment.

Equipment might not need medical attention.

As for gear landing off....Spot it from the air. Locate it, but don't risk an off landing for it. (Unless you are really good, and you KNOW the area is open). There is nothing worse than trying to be anice guy and then finding yourself in a life and death situation.

Id rather lose gear than friends.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Paige 0]

Quote

Not following this all.

I will add this.

If I am going to land off I am going to land near a person, not equipment.

Equipment might not need medical attention.

As for gear landing off....Spot it from the air. Locate it, but don't risk an off landing for it. (Unless you are really good, and you KNOW the area is open). There is nothing worse than trying to be anice guy and then finding yourself in a life and death situation.

Id rather lose gear than friends.

Well, said Ron, I love reading your posts thanks for feeding the brainI'm not an instructor, I would be the student and I would much rather someone land with me than my gear. It may suck if I lost my gear but as you stated, if I needed medical attention from landing off I'd be in trouble if I was a lone. I'd rather be in one piece, minus gear, and able to jump again with rented stuff or a friends.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[safetydave 0]

Abandoned? Yes he was.
Felt less important than the gear? Yes.
Thoughts:

Has anyone thought about the "The Buddy System"?

If there is even a question about it, go with the student.

If you are worried about the gear, then land with the reserve so you can help the student keep the important parts of the gear safe.

If you are concerned about the debrief, then land with the student as to gather all the things he says for the debrief.


If you yourself land by the gear, then get bit by a snake, or sprain your ankle, or tear your canopy climbing over a fence, you might wish you had used the buddy system. A car is coming(with a driver) for the gear/you anyway. They don't need you. your student needs you, now more than ever.

If the student had a harder landing than usual then he might have wanted you to explain why. I hope you gave him a 7-cell main so he was fully prepaired for the landing. It's not over til you land. Where were you? Oh yeah, chasing a ragged out main.

Who is most important in our sport?


I do not wish to sound harsh. I just wanted to give you my opinion.

We the people, this is all about us, after the excitement is gone the question will come up.
Hey where were you? The answer: with my student.

Our sport needs people to ask for advice. YOU ARE A HERO. ON YOUR OWN YOU HAVE YOUR EXPERIENCE WICH IS YOUR BEST TEACHER. IF YOU ASK FOR ADVICE YOU WILL HAVE THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF EXPERIENCE TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS.

I hope you can sort through all the advice and apply what is best for you and your students. The student is looking to you for what is best.
What is best? If you ride the fence 50/50, then go with the best(land with the student).

You may not have stayed with this student, but you can stay with the rest. If I have a reserve ride please land with me, I may want you there more than the main.

You knew from your gut feeling what was right. Listen to yourself, your students do. YOU ARE MY HERO because you asked for advice. YOU ARE THE MAN.


Be safe, peace out,

Safetydave

[crotalus01 0]

hey Brent, if we are jumping and i have a mal and chop it, please feel free to follow my main and freebag! i dont have thousands of dollars to replace them with. and i bet this student doest have that kind of cash laying around either or he wouldnt be renting gear.
dan

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[livendive 8]

Presumably off AFF means off radio? If that's the case, what were you gonna do for him anyhow? I'd have probably done the same as you and landed with the main. Of course this decision would hinge on where we are. If it looked the student was going to land off, I'd try to find somewhere safe for him to follow me into.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)