freefalle 0 #1 July 23, 2004 A friend of mine and I were having a discussion last night about the three years in sport requirement for a tandem instructors rating. Do you think its necessary to be in the sport 3 years before becomming a tandem instructor? Why/why not? Personally, Im not sure I agree with it, if someone comes into the sport and lets say with a year has the means and the time to make 500 jumps why should he/she have to wait two more years to get their ratings? Compare a guy/girl who comes in the sport and makes 500 jumps in a year, they would meet the minimum jump #s but couldnt get their ratings. Now lets compare them to someone whos been in the sport 7 years and only has 500 jumps, which of these 2 skydivers would you consider to be more current? If you would say the skydiver who has only been in the sport 1 year, why should he/she be denied the chance to get a tandem rating because they dont have 3 years in the sport? Just looking for some opinions here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #2 July 23, 2004 IT's not just currency...There's just physically only so much experience you can gain in a year...As a tandem instructor (which I believe to be the most demanding form of instruction out there) you need all the experience you can get...--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #3 July 23, 2004 I agree, you do not only learn from jumping but also a lot from hanging around a DZ. Experience is not only a number of jumps. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #4 July 23, 2004 QuoteExperience is not only a number of jumps. And how is this not saying the same thing as: Experience is not only a specific number of years? Given an unrequired presence, minimum time spans are sort of rediculous, no? .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefalle 0 #5 July 23, 2004 QuoteIT's not just currency...There's just physically only so much experience you can gain in a year...As a tandem instructor (which I believe to be the most demanding form of instruction out there) you need all the experience you can get... If your only at the DZ on days that you jump, how are you gaining "experience"? If someone manages to get 500 jumps in a year I think he has the same ability to gain experience and knowlege as someone who manages to get 500 jumps in 7 years. Perhaps in some cases, more so. Im not saying your wrong Im just stating my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #6 July 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteExperience is not only a number of jumps.And how is this not saying the same thing as: Experience is not only a specific number of years? By having both a jumps, and years requirement, you will end up with instructors with more experience. The jumper who does 500 jumps in a year will have 1500 jumps by the time they can become a Tandem Instructor...Would you prefer a Tandem Instructor with 1500 jumps over 3 years, or 500 over 1? Conversely, would you prefer a TI with 300 jumps over 3 years, or 500 over 1 year. Neither of the rules work in isolation...together they make the TI's job easier, and the world a safer place. PS Here a Tandem Instructor needs 800 jumps, 2 years in the sport, (50 jumps in the last 12 months), and 8 hours in FF (amongst other things).--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #7 July 23, 2004 Netherlands: 1000Jumps 3years no instructor licence Germany: 500Jumps 3years and instructor licence France: 1000Jumps ??years and instructor licence Belgium: 500Jumps ??Years and instructor licence A lot of people only think about jumping much and making easy money when talking about tandem. Partially I agree(as a TM) at some dropzones you can jumpat lot and like a pilot of an airplane most of the times you have an easy job. But you are there to take action in case something is going to get wrong. Tandemjumping is a seperate discipline like RW or Freefly. You have to know what you are doing and learing does not stop with the graduation of your license. Unfortunately a lot of jumpers think to easy about it. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #8 July 23, 2004 QuoteA friend of mine and I were having a discussion last night about the three years in sport requirement for a tandem instructors rating. Do you think its necessary to be in the sport 3 years before becomming a tandem instructor? Why/why not? I do think it is necessary. The time in sports improves judgment and allows for a better rounded and committed instructor. Typically a person who builds 500 jumps in a year is jumping alot, but isn't being exposed to other elements like rigging, teaching, and student support. I also find that first year jumpers tend to be a bit gung ho. They generally lack a clear understanding of the dangers and risks in skydiving, and they lack the judgment needed to work with students in a tandem environment. Three years gives a skydiver time to see people get seriously hurt or bounce, and helps a jumper trade "GO" for "WHOA." That's important.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tspillers 0 #9 July 23, 2004 The minimums are just that MINIMUMS. Many people get their rating at the minimums. Why is someone qualified at 500 jumps, but not 490, or 3 years, but not 2 years and 8 months. The minimums must be set somewhere. Unfortunately, you can make a tandem, wait 2 years and then do your 500 jumps in a year and meet the minimums. According to TK Donle, it wasn't the intent, but it meets the requirement. I think the minimums are too low for some, but others are ready before that. You just can't pick and choose. You must set a rule and follow it. I have actually had to fail a candidate before. I used to not think it was possible. Live thtough the course and you pass..... It didn't happen that time. I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #10 July 23, 2004 Quote also find that first year jumpers tend to be a bit gung ho. They generally lack a clear understanding of the dangers and risks in skydiving, and they lack the judgment needed to work with students in a tandem environment. Three years gives a skydiver time to see people get seriously hurt or bounce, and helps a jumper trade "GO" for "WHOA." That's important. Excellent points. Long ago and far away, I knew someone who got 500 jumps in a year. He decided he wanted a tandem rating. Someone who should have known better "knighted" him tandem master despite the fact that he had only been in the sport for one year instead of three. He did several hundred tandems before he blew it - a 100% preventable and purely ego driven incident. He lived. His student didn't. What really got me was after he'd recovered from his injuries he said he'd like to do tandems again. Would it have happened if he'd met the experience requirement before doing tandems? We'll never know. Do I think it had something to do with it? Absolutely. He hadn't been in the sport long enough at that point to have developed the respect for the dangers of skydiving (much less the additional dangers of doing tandems). His ego told him he could do whatever he wanted and everything would be fine - it's just another skydive after all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #11 July 23, 2004 Well, look at it this way then...... Who would you rather let your wife, mother, daughter, son, girlfriend/boyfriend go tandem with....... Bulletproof hotshot one year boy wonder........or.... Grizzled "been there, done that" 20 year veteran........ Not really a fair contest......or is it ??.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #12 July 23, 2004 QuoteThree years gives a skydiver time to see people get seriously hurt or bounce, and helps a jumper trade "GO" for "WHOA." I don't like this line of thinking, but I believe it. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #13 July 23, 2004 I think three years of "time in sport" should be the criteria for ANY Instructor rating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #14 July 23, 2004 Excellent post, and I agree with every point. By the time you've been in the sport for three or four years, you're absolutely certain you can get seriously hurt or die, because you've probably seen it happen. You've also seen plenty of first-timers, and have a better handle on how people react to freefall for the first time. You've also probably had a chance to jump a lot of different canopies, which means you'll have a better skill set for most tandem operations, where you will be flying several different canopies every day. Basically, the pretty exterior has been stripped away...you're not shiny and new any more, but what's left is usually well-seasoned and highly skilled. IMHO, that's what a TM needs to be. edited to add: You're also usually smart enough to realize that no matter how "well-seasoned and highly skilled" you may be, you're still learning something new on every skydive...Doctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #15 July 23, 2004 QuoteI think three years of "time in sport" should be the criteria for ANY Instructor rating. Yes. It's not just about logging lots of jumps. There is a lot of knowledge gained slowly over time. Certainly you don't want someone just marking their time rather than jumping regularly, but that is the function of the rating course. Weather plays a big role in skydiving safety and in a single year I don't think anyone gets sufficient experience in the variations. Or potentially your one year is the one where the DZs sees more mild issues than typical. By 3 years you should have been exposed to the full range of jumpable conditions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #16 July 23, 2004 Here's my sport progression. 1st year/100 jumps- typical newbie jumper wanting to get on the plane any chance I get. I'm still alive because of instinct and I had some great people around me. 2nd year/100-300 jumps- thought I knew a few things and wanted to be more active. Here I am at 200 jumps talking about wingloading and canopy control with someone just getting their A. Idiot. 3rd year/300-500 jumps Mid year I finally realized what a complete moron I sounded like and shut up. I think a lot of people appreciated that. 4th year- I feel that I am finally ready to START learning. It's out of my system and I have the correct mindset. Looking back over the last few months it's amazing that I've learned more than the previous three years. I think this is the intention of the 3 year statute, not just jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #17 July 23, 2004 I've trained quite a lot of people for their first jumps who have subsequently overtaken me in terms of jump numbers....(some have doubled my score). Do they have my depth of knowledge??...in their specialist field.....probably yes.... All round??....probably not...... You learn a hell of a lot just being around for a long time....meeting people and seeing things develop over time......witnessing and discussing events/ incidents/rules and regs/training/experimenting/testing/competing/etc etc etc.......it takes time, and the learning NEVER stops..... Its a maturity that develops over time.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #18 July 24, 2004 Quote Well, look at it this way then...... Who would you rather let your wife, mother, daughter, son, girlfriend/boyfriend go tandem with....... Bulletproof hotshot one year boy wonder........or.... Grizzled "been there, done that" 20 year veteran........ Not really a fair contest......or is it ??....... As a grizzled old guy, I like your philosophy. However, the wife/girlfriend/female sure might choose the bulletproof boy wonder anyway. I sometimes joke with passengers that you want a little touch of gray in your TM's hair, just like you want for your airline captain. On that note, though, I work with a number of TM's in their early twenties and on, who are all super individuals and great TMs. Could a one year wonder make a good TM? Absolutely, depending on the individual. Does 3 years in sport make one a good TM? Some people will never be cut out for it. The rule doesn't guarantee anything, but it hopes to establish maturity as a prerequisite. Probably a good idea to keep it in place. For all you TM instructor/ examiners, my hat is off to you. Keep training 'em hard and washing them out when you need to. Somebody's life depends on it. my 2 cents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 126 #19 July 24, 2004 It is a pretty lame requirement I agree. The main reason it s there I suspect is that it was there when the original expreimental exemptions were given out and set as a minimum then. Almost all the rules set for those days were simply adopted by the FAA as the new rules when it became 'legal' in 2001. Too bad really, It will cramp a lot of people who ar emore than capable of doing the job. I ould expect it would take another 20 years to change the FARs as it did for the first exemption, TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John4455 0 #20 July 26, 2004 I don't really understand. If some one were financially able to learn to skydive, graduate AFF, buy gear, and make 500 jumps in there first year, why would they even want a tandem rating? How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #21 July 26, 2004 Quote Well, look at it this way then...... Who would you rather let your wife, mother, daughter, son, girlfriend/boyfriend go tandem with....... Bulletproof hotshot one year boy wonder........or.... Grizzled "been there, done that" 20 year veteran........ Not really a fair contest......or is it ??....... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HEY! I resemble that remark. I am a grizzled, grey-bearded, grumpy 18-year survivor of the tandem industry and I still did more jumps yesterday (8 plus a bunch of packing) than the young pups! Hah! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #22 July 27, 2004 I'm in between the young- hot shot an the gray-old man. (I'm 32) I agree experience (in jumps or years) is much more important than being a hot-shot. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #23 July 27, 2004 Yeah, the young pups of today are a bit soft I reckon, they need to harden up a bit...... I really don't like the way they look at you when you tell them how it used to be in the good ol' days...... When we used to get out the door of a 172 at 500 feet, get a 10 way speed star together in 3.5 seconds, then get a stand up landing on the concrete under half a round parachute....... They have the cheek to suggest we're lying!!!!.......Sheesh......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #24 July 27, 2004 >>I think three years of "time in sport" should be the criteria for ANY Instructor rating. << I got my coach rating very fast. I believe that since I;ve been a coach I've helped lots of recently minted AFF grads better make the transition to RW. Since getting my coach rating and spending more time in the sport, however, I am not sure I can disagree with you. There are way too many times I am still surprised by things that happen - and time and experience are the only ways to not be surprised by things that happen. And surprised is not a good way to feel when you have an unsurvivable descent rate. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #25 July 27, 2004 I don't associate the Coach rating with the "Instructor" rating. Years ago, before the Coach rating was implemented - a Coach was anyone with more jumps than you who was willing to go up with you. I have no doubt that you will make an excellent instructor in the near future.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
