DB Cooper

[georger 197]

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sluggo said:
"Also, [REDACTED] was going to check his records and let me know his source for a statement attributed to First Officer Rataczak during the sled-drop test. Rataczak was reported to have said that the "pressure bump" during the drop test "triggered a recollection" of the same sort of pressure bump, during the flight."

This is interesting, except Rataczak wasn't on the drop test, right?

correct - it was Anderson.

[377 21]

I was watching my wrist altimeter when jumpers ahead of me were exiting the DC 9-21 at WFFC 2006. We exited at about 14,000 ft AGL.

I could very clearly feel (in my ears) every single jumper exit. I could have been blindfolded and accurately counted every exiting jumper. It was kind of a swoosh with a mild thunk at the end of the "noise". The corresponding wrist altimeter needle movement was not really noticeable. Maybe the 727 FE panel cabin altimeter is more sensitive.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Sluggo is giving you insight into how a generic pilot would think and act in the situation, not how you would.

[georger 197]

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When a pilot says we are 10 miles from Portland, I assume he means PDX. There is where the ATCs are, where the ILS is, and where the VOR is. (PDX also means the PORTLAND VOR/DME). The City of Portland is 4 miles SW of PDX (the airport and the VOR/DME)

Agreed to me that means they are 10 miles off of the VOR/DME.

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I would be surprised if Tina had EVER been on V-23, and I would bet Rataczak, Scott and Anderson had NEVER been also. They were stationed in MN and passenger carrying aircraft don’t (usually) fly low altitude, VFR airways. They would however, probably be very familiar with J-1, J-126, J-5, and J-65.

I'll preface this by saying I'm not sure how northwest's pilot rotations worked in the 1970's, but if it is anything like today it is possible that crew A) had never worked with each other and B) had never flown that route. Like you said, none of the crew would have ever had any reason to be on V-23.

I think Sluggo's point about never having flown a
'low alt' route is very valid.

[georger 197]

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Snow Hi. some times we think in ancient terms. or just get side tracked like you. However some times there are those that need there paciphier. or there diapper changed. Still some of your comments are realy not propper and yet a lot are its hard to put you in your corner, The put downs are not cool to say the least if you would like. My wife says we can adopt you. you raise good questions and are very good at computers we are all prowd of you but please stop the put downs. Your still Invited to our wedding aniversevery on July 26th. Remember adoption is optional. Please be on your best behavior. I will answer your questions if they are without ridcule and continue to be so. Jerry

Im homeless too! Adopt me!
I will thrown in a whole corporation.

[377 21]

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Now Lets look at reality. It is a solvable case all that has to be done is to find evidence of where he landed. its obvious that he had to leave something at his landing site Whether it be a skull or just a piece of cloth. Something is there.

I think Jerry has a really good point. Cooper had no reason to pack the chute out with him. Safe landing or fatal impact, there is a chute out there in either case.

Careful about trying to domesticate Snow Jerry. Look what happened to Siegfried and Roy. I am a Snow fan, but they have cages for a reason.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Flying low around the Portland area, distracted by a gear problem, this UAL DC 8 jet crew blew it big time.

Interesting read about what goes on in the cockpit flying around in that area at low altitudes and how fast you burn fuel.

http://www.pilotfriend.com/disasters/crash/united173.htm

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

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I was watching my wrist altimeter when jumpers ahead of me were exiting the DC 9-21 at WFFC 2006. We exited at about 14,000 ft AGL.

I could very clearly feel (in my ears) every single jumper exit. I could have been blindfolded and accurately counted every exiting jumper. It was kind of a swoosh with a mild thunk at the end of the "noise". The corresponding wrist altimeter needle movement was not really noticeable. Maybe the 727 FE panel cabin altimeter is more sensitive.

377

There is one small issue Ive never spoken to -
Somewhere in the remote past someone (maybe
Scott) spoke to the issue of trim while flying a
727. He described the trim as being sensitive, so
sensitive 'once the passangers are seated and things are quiet, I can tell when a stewardess
walks from the front to the back - I have to change
the trim very slightly.'

Maybe on the evening of 11-24-71, trim was not
an issue, due to winds and buffeting? Thats never
been mentioned by Scott, Rat, or anyone that I
know of. It has never been mentioned with respect
to Cooper leaving the plane.

[377 21]

Because we are so wacked out here, the hardcore old skydivers post the good 727 exit photos elsewhere.

The first photo might shows the gear down, flaps and LE slats deployed and stairs down.

Check out the 727 stair exit shot from the interior.
It is not the first photo posted.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3526534;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

Adopt you. No way your as ugly as I am. some one might think we are actualy related. Kiding aside snow provides alot to computer expertise and has been very usefull to this forum. He has also brought all of you guys to the same conclusions that actual test has provided. Still If I adopt him could it be a nitemare. I think not Just a experience that could be worse . Just Kiding. Jerry

[JerryThomas 0]

Even if cooper had tried to deploy his chute at the same time of his jump. We must remember it was not user friendly. He would have had deployment problems as orange 1 mentioned and tombling problems. The tombling promblems would be quicker if the chute was deployed befor stabilization.This is normal.Experienced jumpers Know.

[georger 197]

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Adopt you. No way your as ugly as I am. some one might think we are actualy related. Kiding aside snow provides alot to computer expertise and has been very usefull to this forum. He has also brought all of you guys to the same conclusions that actual test has provided. Still If I adopt him could it be a nitemare. I think not Just a experience that could be worse . Just Kiding. Jerry

will call soon -

[JerryThomas 0]

Please do. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

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Sluggo is giving you insight into how a generic pilot would think and act in the situation, not how you would.

agree. To make matters worse Rat & Scott (Anderson) were apparently never asked to clarify
what Rat meant, or what Rat's word "felt" meant.
But now, given they had not flown v23 before, Rat's
word "felt" may mean: 'I wasnt sure what was what!'
Vancouver vs Portland ....... all just lights? They
did have charts.

And of course if they crossed at Troutdale, that
offers a different perspective with Vancouver &
Portland on their right flank the whole way through.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snow if you want Coopers drop zone to be Reno ,so Be It. If You want to continue to debate this isue. Please tire yourself out . If you want to continue to debate what someone said good. However If you would like to help solve this case. Go to the computer and plot a course 10 to 13 miles east of the original suspected drop zone and post it.

[snowmman 3]

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Snow if you want Coopers drop zone to be Reno ,so Be It. If You want to continue to debate this isue. Please tire yourself out . If you want to continue to debate what someone said good. However If you would like to help solve this case. Go to the computer and plot a course 10 to 13 miles east of the original suspected drop zone and post it.

Hi Jerry.
My posts aren't directed to you. Feel free to read them, since I post them for everyone to think about. But you don't need to respond to every one.

I have been wondering about your perception of me. I really am 49 turning 50 this summer. It's pretty odd to have you try to interact with me like I'm some kid. From this side, I've given up on getting anything useful from you. Just trying to be straight with you. I'm sure you're a different guy in real life. But that doesn't matter here.

[snowmman 3]

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Because we are so wacked out here, the hardcore old skydivers post the good 727 exit photos elsewhere.

The first photo might shows the gear down, flaps and LE slats deployed and stairs down.

Check out the 727 stair exit shot from the interior.
It is not the first photo posted.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3526534;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


377

I wanted to post to that thread so bad 377, but I know my place :)

I was really curious about the stairs. Were they locked down? I think not. Which means they just dropped from the weight of the two jumpers? I wonder if the stairs popped back up after the jump? I can't see in the first photo. Be interesting to see it in the movie. It's supposed to be in the beginning?

It appears to me (from searching around) that the 727-200 had the stair lock down feature, so they could use the aft stairs as a tail stand when a 727 was on the ground. The earlier 727's (like the 727-051 of Cooper's) didn't.

Evidently the movie plane was a 727-100, and was owned by Ray Kroc, and was used as the baseball Padres team plane. Remember that Ray Kroc took over MacDonalds and made it huge.

Supposedly the jumper landed on Mt. Lemmon in Tucson, AZ?

[JerryThomas 0]

Snow all kiding aside your great I've always said that on and off the forum. However don't let it build your eggo to high.Coming from me it realy doesn't mean much. Jerry

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

You said:

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(edit) Another thought...if Rat wasn't flying V23, how the hell did he know where to go at night in the storm? Did he have a map on his lap he was eyeballing? Looking out the window? and driving around?

It has been said, and I asked Ralph about it, that Rataczak was “hand-flying” the plane. That simply means he wasn’t on any mode of autopilot. He would navigate by VOR/DME. That’s how he knew where he was, and with Mt. St Helens where it was (in 1971), I don’t think he was too far east of V-23. Sure he may have deviated around Portland (the city) and probably did, but not until he was south of Mt. St. Helens.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[SchlitznGrins 0]

I think Jerry has some real good intentions, but how on earth can anyone determine a DZ with the info currently available. It has more holes in it than swiss cheese. I would agree to go on a search with you Jerry, if I knew we had some evidence to search a given area. Otherwise it is all just one big crapshoot.

I often wondered if Coop just threw out a few stacks of bills from the plane intending it to be found to throw off the search. There would be no way three bundles would stay together in it's freefall though...Could they?

[snowmman 3]

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snowmman,

You said:

Quote

(edit) Another thought...if Rat wasn't flying V23, how the hell did he know where to go at night in the storm? Did he have a map on his lap he was eyeballing? Looking out the window? and driving around?

It has been said, and I asked Ralph about it, that Rataczak was “hand-flying” the plane. That simply means he wasn’t on any mode of autopilot. He would navigate by VOR/DME. That’s how he knew where he was, and with Mt. St Helens where it was (in 1971), I don’t think he was too far east of V-23. Sure he may have deviated around Portland (the city) and probably did, but not until he was south of Mt. St. Helens.

Sluggo_Monster

Right. exactly.
And the flight path does show he was east of V-23.

I don't know what the traffic was like at PDX back then, but I would think that it would be a big deal for PDX ATC if 305 flew east of PDX, as opposed to circling around to the west, like the flight path map shows.

Were any other planes in the area in the vicinity? I guess we don't know.

I'm expecting someone will eventually draw this magic alternate flight path, and it will be obvious nothing fits with it. It fits as long as you don't draw it. :)

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

SNOW, you have the plane that has been discussed here that was suposedly behind and above, go back a few pages you guys went back and forth about it for a while.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

snowmman said:

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I don't know what the traffic was like at PDX back then, but I would think that it would be a big deal for PDX ATC if 305 flew east of PDX, as opposed to circling around to the west, like the flight path map shows.

Were any other planes in the area in the vicinity? I guess we don't know.

We do know of Captain Bohan who reported that he was a few miles behind and above 305. And as for the ATC, remember 305 is well below what a commercial aircraft would normally be flying the route at. Traffic at 10,000 on a night with marginal weather would have been minimal at best. Plus, given the situation aboard the plane, 305 would likely have been given significant latitude by ATC.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

Georger said:

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They did have charts.

Yes, but I'm almost certain they were operating under instrument flight rules (IFR). We have been looking at sectional charts and particularly the sectional that had the estimated flight path traced on it. Under IFR they would have used the IFR inroute low altitude chart (In this case L-1).
You can see sectionals, low altitude (victor), and high altitude (jet) at:
http://skyvector.com/

As you will see the enroute IFR charts provide you a lot less information about the ground. They do give you the necessary information to maintain instrument navigation.

[snowmman 3]

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snowmman said:

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I don't know what the traffic was like at PDX back then, but I would think that it would be a big deal for PDX ATC if 305 flew east of PDX, as opposed to circling around to the west, like the flight path map shows.

Were any other planes in the area in the vicinity? I guess we don't know.

We do know of Captain Bohan who reported that he was a few miles behind and above 305. And as for the ATC, remember 305 is well below what a commercial aircraft would normally be flying the route at. Traffic at 10,000 on a night with marginal weather would have been minimal at best. Plus, given the situation aboard the plane, 305 would likely have been given significant latitude by ATC.

My understanding of ATC is that it's not a thing where you can drink beer while working, right? They really like to know what a plane is going to do, before it does it right?

If they gave 305 all this "latitude"...wouldn't it show up in the transcripts?

"Oh you're flying over there now. OK"
"Yeah taking it east a bit"
"Roger that. Any way you want to approach PDX is fine with me"
"Roger. Yeah we'll see what happens"
"Oh there you go, bye bye"
"What, you say something? My ears just popped"

Doesn't the lack of additional voice comms pretty much say they were flying as expected on V23??

What happens if you're flying and you start diverging? Does ATC say anything to you usually?