DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

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What kind of person goes on tour to the woods with Jerry, with a bunch of old biddies from a sewing group, telling stories about Cooper back in the day, that are devoid of facts?

Even Jo doesn't do that

I don't know Snow, sounds like a pleasant afternoon to me. It is just like hunting or fishing, you know. A few tall tales are expected. Talk about "the one that got away"... Cooper is the ULTIMATE.

377

Right, agree.
And Sluggo has confirmed Ralph likes to tell stories.
He's a storyteller. That's his profile.
And he's an old guy now. Old guys like to stick to their old stories. They like to be "right".

That simple.

What amazes me, is guys like Jerry come on here, and profess the religion of "facts". And then in the next breath start talking about how they know Cooper is a "common criminal" and how he jumped in the woods, and all sorts of random speculation.

Georger got me right with Jo and the castration theory.
I want to hear Georger's theory on why Jerry needs to pal up with Himmelsbach. Is it the same castration theory? My fantasy looks better in a dress though.

[georger 197]

This is exactly correct.
The investigation was incredibly bad. Data was not preserved. Anecdotes ran rampant.

Reply: No. Only partly true. The "investigation" was
just not coordinated and no structure may have existed
for there to be coordination.

And under it all NWA has corporate financial interests
to protect!

Let me put it this way for you - you will like this maybe.

The truth to Cooper is random walk through beaurocratic mass! Nobody along the trip has all of
the facts!

[snowmman 3]

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The truth to Cooper is random walk through beaurocratic mass! Nobody along the trip has all of the facts!

Agreed.

Just add "and for some reason, we still can't get all the facts, like the damn Palmer Clay Layer Report"......I swear when TK was on TV, he probably didn't know about the Palmer Report.
How else to explain his "maybe" when asked if the money was there all along, on camera? Or did he know about the Palmer Report and has discounted it for some reason?

I don't know.

[Orange1 0]

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Orange? Sluggo? Guru? Nigel? Jo? others?

Where would you place your bets?

377

Civilian with no jumping experience (or maybe just a few SLs), i'd put low chances on survival, especially with a hard pull, even before taking the terrain into account.

Experienced jumper - much better chance - no sensory overload, ability to get stable, think about what to do if faced with a hard pull, etc.

Paratrooper - best chance - used to jumping at night, bad conditions, uncertain terrain etc etc. If Cooper had been a paratrooper, even one trained with SL, I'd say in fact very good odds that he did survive.

I'm not quite sure where i'd fit loadmaster etc into the above, but if the loadmaster/cargo kicker had smokejumper training, decent odds. If it was a loadmaster whose only jump was accidental.. well hell he obviously survived that one so yeah, could survive the jet jump too.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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[Orange1 0]

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I have jumped from a jet (DC9). It isnt really such a big deal.

To you maybe you ever seen a tandem pax jumping from a cessna? most of the time it is a BIG deal! how many jumps did you have when you jumped the jet, 377?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 20]

Does any one know if slant range corrections were calculated for the radar data? Most ATC radars of that era just had a rotating antenna. Two planes, one at 1000 ft and one at 10,000 ft, both over the exact same ground position would appear displaced from each other on the radar screen because the higher target echo takes a bit longer to return to the radar receiver than the lower one does. One echo path is the hypotenuse of a right triangle and one is the base.

Some USAF air defense radars also had a nodding (vertical up and down sweep) height finder radar to supplement what the horizontal sweep radar found and could give altitude info.

Since we had altitiude info from the NWA flight data recorder slant angle/range corrections could be made manually. Were they made? You wouldn't get huge ground position errors from failure to correct for slant angle/range, but they are errors and we should know if they were corrected.

This article gives a discussion of the slant range issue from the perspective of an airborne radar, but just flip the discussion upside down and you get the Cooper ground radar setup.

http://www.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca/resource/tutor/stereo/chap5/chapter5_8_e.php

EDIT: Here is something simpler and more to the point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slant_range

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

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I have jumped from a jet (DC9). It isnt really such a big deal.

To you maybe you ever seen a tandem pax jumping from a cessna? most of the time it is a BIG deal! how many jumps did you have when you jumped the jet, 377?

Any tandem jump from a Cessna is a big scary hassle. I have watched the sheer terror up close too many times. I have always worried that some Cessna tandem passenger would throw up, they looked close. I think that getting out on the strut is terrifying to newbies. Stepping out of an open door is not. You fear falling off of things that you are hanging on to. Also, the prop is scary to newbies and it is very close.

I was told that tandem jumps were made from the DC 9 jet with no problems, but I didnt witness any. Everyone on the jet had at least 50 jumps (WFFC jump requirement, and a bit low in my opinion) and most like me had hundreds.

It is funny how impressed whuffos are with a jet jump. Many mention DB Cooper when they ask about the jump. It was really a very easy jump with a big wind blast but nothing difficult or scary. The high exit speed meant that jumpers were spread out for miles so there were no serious freefall or canopy traffic issues.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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Georger wrote:

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This might be as good a time as any for me to
express my own particular bias in this whole matter.
Generally speaking in matters of science, I look first
for explanations which are within normal parameters
before going off looking for something unusual.
Experience has shown over the mellina that special explanations generally fail the test of time, as new
better data surfaces. It usually comes down to a
question of having the data. Once the data is
available then the correct explanation usually follows.
But collecting the data can be very difficult.

I agree with G., but I don't view Occam's razor as a bias. It is common sense. If you don't use it, you can bring in the paranormal/conspiracies/new age "science" etc. to explain all mysteries.

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Occam's Razor, also Ockham's Razor,[1] is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory

377

I mentioned this looooong ago here. It's interesting isn't it - those of us in jobs where we apply occam's razor in practice (yes, i do too as a fundamental principle of my eco modelling) clearly have a predisposition to apply it here. then again, occam's razor usually holds.

so for example: it makes much more sense to conclude that Duane wasn't Cooper, than that there has been an FBI/CIA conspiracy in place for 30 years to hide the fact that he was.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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Any tandem jump from a Cessna is a big scary hassle. I have watched the sheer terror up close too many times. I have always worried that some Cessna tandem passenger would throw up, they looked close. I think that getting out on the strut is terrifying to newbies. Stepping out of an open door is not. You fear falling off of things that you are hanging on to. Also, the prop is scary to newbies and it is very close.

you surely don't mean the tandem pax's had to get out on the strut? ours go out the door...(on all the C's i've jumped - 182, 206, 207, 210)
btw i learnt to jump out a door (cargo door 206/207). sorry to disappoint you, 377, but that is also terrifying to newbies i was actually OK with it, but the girl in front of me had to be given a gentle...nudge by the JM to get her to go...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

377 said: "It was really a very easy jump with a big wind blast but nothing difficult or scary. The high exit speed meant that jumpers were spread out for miles so there were no serious freefall or canopy traffic issues."


I would note that in 1971, when the FBI went to skydivers and asked for opinions about jet jumps, very few civilians had done jet jumps?

military had been jumping from c-141 jet. Civilian parachutes had been tested by military from jets. I guess emergency jumps had been done from jets, along with a lot of military testing.

What's weird is understanding how all of these opinions about Cooper's jump, were created? I mean, the people giving opinions probably had never done a jet jump.

And military was doing side-door c-141 jumps without a lot of deaths etc.

So why was everyone all confident they knew what Cooper experienced?

I think they were just making up stories to justify their own "expertness".

It would have been better for them to say "we don't know, the experiment is outside our experience".

[377 20]

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I mentioned this looooong ago here. It's interesting isn't it - those of us in jobs where we apply occam's razor in practice (yes, i do too as a fundamental principle of my eco modelling) clearly have a predisposition to apply it here. then again, occam's razor usually holds.

so for example: it makes much more sense to conclude that Duane wasn't Cooper, than that there has been an FBI/CIA conspiracy in place for 30 years to hide the fact that he was.

You nailed it Orange. If you dont believe in Occam's razor then you'd catalog Asimov's novels in the non fiction section of the library.

Why are conspiracies, UFOs, ghosts and other such things so much more enticing and fun than plain old physics and physiology?

To me Occam's razor often slices the fun out of things. It says forget the wild bizzare theories , pursue the ordinary explanations. Yawn... Sigh....

No wonder those "new age" belivers are always smiling. They really think if they get their mantra, chakra and aura just right, they can levitate. I am resigned to purchasing rides in airplanes.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

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you surely don't mean the tandem pax's had to get out on the strut? ours go out the door

Indeed I do Orange. At this little Cessna DZ I jumped at about 8 years ago, they had a custom welded steel step mounted over the landing gear wheel. Tandem pairs exited standing on the step and holding on to the strut. The passengers were so scared climbing out. It was just terrifying to many and I can sure see why. They couldn't close their eyes (as many door exiting tandem passengers do) because they had to grab on to the strut and assist in positioning for the exit.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

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It would have been better for them to say "we don't know, the experiment is outside our experience".

If you want that kind of an answer ("we don't know") don't look on dropzone.com. EVERYONE here has an answer if the question is about any aspect of jumping.

I have never base jumped but I have all sorts of opinions about the gear, terrain, safety etc. Only the fear of peer review and criticism makes me keep my mouth shut.

If the FBI asked me about base jumping, I'd fill their ears for hours.

The FBI and federal prosecutors sometimes make BIG mistakes in their selection of outside experts. I saw it a few times in criminal trials. It is understandable. You have to be an expert in a field to really know the experts in a field and be able to distinguish them from the pretenders, wannabes or quasi experts. Often the real experts are too busy doing real science or engineeering and the wannabes are touting theselves in forensic publication expert witness advertisements.

In 1971 I was certain I knew what Cooper experienced jumping and probably immediately deploying from a 727. It was incredibly violent. I hadn't seen the Air Americal 727 jump films and didnt know the extent of my ignorance.

Didn't Duane sing some song about 'you never know what you dont know"? How right he was.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

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During the 70's how ofter would you say there was sombody on Tena's bar in the area where the money was found? multipal a day?, Daily?, weekly?, monthly???? I am just curious, i have not seen much as to traffic this spot received by humans consistantly. I ask this in thinking, If this "washes up" on shore with a lot of foot traffic in the area don't you find the odds better it found before several inches of sand cover it?

My relatives at Vancouver said/say: "people were at
Tina Bar all the time". Im not sure what Jerry says on
this -
Of course that wouldnt apply during high water or
floods which means an article could get deposited
and silted over fairly quickly, I think, not to be noticed.

Jerry what do you think?

[georger 197]

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What kind of person goes on tour to the woods with Jerry, with a bunch of old biddies from a sewing group, telling stories about Cooper back in the day, that are devoid of facts?

Even Jo doesn't do that

I don't know Snow, sounds like a pleasant afternoon to me. It is just like hunting or fishing, you know. A few tall tales are expected. Talk about "the one that got away"... Cooper is the ULTIMATE.

377

Right, agree.
And Sluggo has confirmed Ralph likes to tell stories.
He's a storyteller. That's his profile.
And he's an old guy now. Old guys like to stick to their old stories. They like to be "right".

That simple.

What amazes me, is guys like Jerry come on here, and profess the religion of "facts". And then in the next breath start talking about how they know Cooper is a "common criminal" and how he jumped in the woods, and all sorts of random speculation.

Georger got me right with Jo and the castration theory.
I want to hear Georger's theory on why Jerry needs to pal up with Himmelsbach. Is it the same castration theory? My fantasy looks better in a dress though.

Thats between Jerry, H, and me! No comment.
You are right about geezars telling old stories.
But we are also trying (very hard) to get to the truth.
We all want that.

[georger 197]

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The truth to Cooper is random walk through beaurocratic mass! Nobody along the trip has all of the facts!

Agreed.

Just add "and for some reason, we still can't get all the facts, like the damn Palmer Clay Layer Report"......I swear when TK was on TV, he probably didn't know about the Palmer Report.
How else to explain his "maybe" when asked if the money was there all along, on camera? Or did he know about the Palmer Report and has discounted it for some reason?

I don't know.

Keep in mind the tv bits are reluctantly done, well
maybe a tiny piece of Hollywood. Tom was being coy.

Tom and I (and others) have argued a lot about the
Palmer report, which we have. I will just say it.

[georger 197]

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I have jumped from a jet (DC9). It isnt really such a big deal.

To you maybe you ever seen a tandem pax jumping from a cessna? most of the time it is a BIG deal! how many jumps did you have when you jumped the jet, 377?

Any tandem jump from a Cessna is a big scary hassle. I have watched the sheer terror up close too many times. I have always worried that some Cessna tandem passenger would throw up, they looked close. I think that getting out on the strut is terrifying to newbies. Stepping out of an open door is not. You fear falling off of things that you are hanging on to. Also, the prop is scary to newbies and it is very close.

The protocol there is "Depends" (diapers). Just
watch a guy's face as his ________ leaks! I shouldnt
say this but damn, I always got a chuckle out of that.
Shows my mean side.

[georger 197]

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Georger wrote:

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This might be as good a time as any for me to
express my own particular bias in this whole matter.
Generally speaking in matters of science, I look first
for explanations which are within normal parameters
before going off looking for something unusual.
Experience has shown over the mellina that special explanations generally fail the test of time, as new
better data surfaces. It usually comes down to a
question of having the data. Once the data is
available then the correct explanation usually follows.
But collecting the data can be very difficult.

I agree with G., but I don't view Occam's razor as a bias. It is common sense. If you don't use it, you can bring in the paranormal/conspiracies/new age "science" etc. to explain all mysteries.

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Occam's Razor, also Ockham's Razor,[1] is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory

377

I mentioned this looooong ago here. It's interesting isn't it - those of us in jobs where we apply occam's razor in practice (yes, i do too as a fundamental principle of my eco modelling) clearly have a predisposition to apply it here. then again, occam's razor usually holds.

so for example: it makes much more sense to conclude that Duane wasn't Cooper, than that there has been an FBI/CIA conspiracy in place for 30 years to hide the fact that he was.

I just watch and count the number of 'epicycles' people
begin adding to their theories to get things to work.
Thats a reference back to Aristotle. I see it all the time
in business, science, everywhere.

[georger 197]

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I mentioned this looooong ago here. It's interesting isn't it - those of us in jobs where we apply occam's razor in practice (yes, i do too as a fundamental principle of my eco modelling) clearly have a predisposition to apply it here. then again, occam's razor usually holds.

so for example: it makes much more sense to conclude that Duane wasn't Cooper, than that there has been an FBI/CIA conspiracy in place for 30 years to hide the fact that he was.

You nailed it Orange. If you dont believe in Occam's razor then you'd catalog Asimov's novels in the non fiction section of the library.

Why are conspiracies, UFOs, ghosts and other such things so much more enticing and fun than plain old physics and physiology?

377

Because metaphysics offers an ANSWER. And people
want and need ANSWERS. Science lags behind often
not able to give a concrete technical answer, and then
when a technical answer is available people dont
understand it, and then when a physicist say opts for
a general layman's level answer it comes out
unintuitive ........ its no wonder people dont believe
in science, while also using it!

One of the best astro photographers I know, a guy
you would always go to for mathematical solutions
and great astro photography still believes and preaches .... the Earth was created in 4000BC.
And he ahs more people on his side than on mine.

[377 20]

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One of the best astro photographers I know, a guy
you would always go to for mathematical solutions
and great astro photography still believes and preaches .... the Earth was created in 4000BC.
And he ahs more people on his side than on mine.

I hear ya Georger. I know a very accomplished PhD physical scientist who literally believes the world was created in seven days. It is in the Bible so it is true, PERIOD! He goes into tortured twisted relativistic time distortion theories to make it work out. Einstein and Feynman would blanche.

Hey, whatever makes you sleep well and not fear death.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377:
did you brain glitch? or am I missing something about slant range error...

The 305 altitude was just 10,000 ft. And it was in the vicinity of 100 mi away during the critical flight path time, from seatac.

You only have to worry about slant range error being large, when
the object is close, relative to it's altitude. Think about ratio of hypotenuse to adjacent leg of the triangle.

The distance from Seatac to Lake Merwin is about 100 miles as the crow files. That's a 50 to 1 ratio to 309's altitude.

consulting pythagoras:
hyp = sqrt (100**2 + 2**2) = 100.02

so just .02 miles difference between the two measurements.
(100.02 - 100) = .02

Even comparing to McChord Air Base, which is 85 miles.

sqrt (85**2 + 2**2) = 85.02

negligible?

[377 20]

You are 100% right Snow, I just wasn't figuring the 727's range to the radar station being that far. It is a trivial negligible error. Duh. My bad.

Where do the big reported errors in the GPS vs radar position come from? Time of echo arrival ranging is easy to do with high accuracy. Are there non isotropic propagation delays for microwave radar signals? What is the source of error?

I am taking bets on your Washougal survival but few are being placed. I am saying you make it out alive, stealthily avoiding Jerry's trained killer bears and savage pit bulls dressed in racoon costumes.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

"trained killer bears"

actually there are a few grizzly in washington.

If you were looking to drop me in a true-to-life remote area, it would be the North Cascades, just northeast of Seattle.

"The North Cascades grizzly bear recovery area covers almost 10,000 square miles (one of the largest in the United States). More than 40% of the recovery area is designated wilderness, 90% is federal or state owned, and 68% has no motorized access."

Now that would be a good challenge!

maps and other info here:
http://www.bearinfo.org/recovery.htm

some pictures of grizzly tracks in WA, plus the hide of a 1000lb+ grizzly shot in 1923
http://www.bearinfo.org/observations.htm

confirmed sightings are really really rare.

"Of North Cascades grizzly bear sightings reported to government agencies between 1950 and 1991, 20 were confirmed and an additional 81 were considered highly probable. Today, the estimated resident population in Washington’s North Cascades is between 5 and 20 bears:

[skyjack71 0]

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so for example: it makes much more sense to conclude that Duane wasn't Cooper, than that there has been an FBI/CIA conspiracy in place for 30 years to hide the fact that he was.

Orange, I have been nice and quiet and even polite to Jerry, but I have to bore you guys one more time., so please forgive me.

The FBI/CIA thing developed due to a series of co-incidences. There were things in his past that lend themselves toward that train of thought. He very likely was involved in a group (good or bad) and this may or may not be the source of jump knowledge.

This was a man with a past and no future - facing the biggest battle of his life - and without a job and medical assistance. He had spent 17 yrs of his life in prison - he didn’t know any other kind of life. When he got on that plane I believe - he expected to be apprehended on the ground and spend his final yrs in prison with medical assistance. When the money was delivered he was “child like” - I think when that plane lifted off it hit him - "Oh hell what did I get myself into". There was no choice except to jump -“Hell, if I die at least it will be quick” and if he lived he expected to be caught and die in prison. Yes, he was sad - because he was facing prison and death. There is a part of me that thinks he never planned to jump.

I believe he held on for dear life just prior to jumping because of the way his hand was up (in the dream) as if holding tight to something and then he lets go of a blood curdling scream “I’m going to die” Maybe he didn’t expect to reach that point, but he did and he survived the jump. Now he has really done it - he’s got all of the money and every federal agent in WA is looking for him.

His gut told him the FBI would be on him fast - he has to hide what he can and carry the rest . He gets his bearings - he knows the area. He heads toward the tower light - he knows there will be shelter there. He is aware of that area and what lines crossed that section and he has to get out of the search range fast - he is unaware they are would be searching further North. He knows where the Hat is and where the power lines and pipe lines lead - and he heads East because he knows that area well.

NO ONE has ever explored how Cooper knew the area so well. If it had been recent, surely he would have been identified. Therefore this familiarity had to have gone back to the yrs of 1946- 1949 before he started to look like the adult he had become.

What drew Cooper back to WA?Why did he choose WA ? Did he work there as a very young man - building the infrastructure - pipe lines, power lines, airports, highways, forestry or ranger in training? What and why did Cooper choose WA - a child he wanted to see, (polycystic kidney disease is hereditary), the woman who gave birth to his only child - something brought him back to WA. Whatever it was - didn’t turn out the way he expected.

I think the mistake the FBI made in apprehending Cooper was that they thought “trained jumper” - and chose to go on the basis of what he looked like - not HOW and WHEN he was familiar with the area. They didn’t go back far enough in time - and they were stuck in an experienced “jumper mode”.

If you look at the other side of the coin and in simple terms - it makes sense to conclude that Weber was Cooper. The public has a tendency to over think things and to complicate them. KISS was always Duane’s motto all the yrs I knew him. He always cautioned me to say as little as possible in a presentation and wait for my cue.

You'll Never Know If You Don't Know Now.

PS
Me trying to think the way I thought Duane might think, but, Quade is right it doesn't make sense, but there is still something in my gut that says he did it because he didn't know any other way out - perhaps he looked at is as a win win situation no matter what happened.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

I knew I shoudn't have trusted Orange1.
I knew 377 was wrong when he said flying the 727 to Africa with gold bars was a good idea.

They found the stash already. (Mar. 9, 2009)

uh...ok...let's see. The story will be that people find buried money in Africa, like R1.5 Million, all the time. This is nothing special. As long as no one panics, everything will be cool.

It's possible Himmelsbach is on the case, because there are some facts being reported (see bold).

Ekhuruleni is a municipality in South Africa.
That has nothing to do with anything you've read in this forum.

http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=955324

A construction worker today found a cooler box, which he initially thought was a bomb, but actually contained R1.5 million in cash.

"The construction worker intended digging a six-metre hole for a drainage system in Edenvale when he found a medium-sized cooler box buried deep down," said Ekhuruleni Metro Police spokesman Kobeli G Mokheseng.

He said the worker thought it was a bomb and alerted police.

"Officers rushed to the 10th Avenue building and opened the blue and white container that seemed to be hidden underground for a long time.

"When the container was opened we found R50 and R20 notes to an estimated value of R1.5 million."

He did not want to say where the money was taken to, so that the case was not jeopardised.

No arrests were made. Investigations are continuing.

------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=139&art_id=vn20090310044831487C700774

A construction worker has unearthed more than R1-million stashed away in a cooler box in Edenvale.

Rodgers Nkuna, 25, was digging up a six-metre trench for the drainage system near a building in 10th Avenue when he came across a mud-spattered blue and white cooler box at about 10am on Monday.

"For a moment he thought it was a bomb, before he notified the metro police, who came and opened the container, which seems to have been hidden underground for a long time," said Ekurhuleni metro police spokesperson Kobeli Mokheseng.

"It contained R50 and R20 notes worth an estimated R1.5-million," he said.

Mokheseng pointed out that the ground where the cooler box was found was still wet from recent rains.

The notes were damaged from the wet ground and covered in mud.

"The cooler box could have been there for a very long time. We don't know how it could have landed down there," he added.

"Maybe whoever buried it there was hoping to find it after they had served time in jail, or they could be dead.

"The Edenvale police are investigating the origin of the money."