DB Cooper

[georger 197]

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The dredge used on the columbia had propellers.all material passed through them.Georger The info about the flight came from rat told to Ralph on the day of Ralphs retirement. Ralph made mention of this conversation yesterday at the conference.He made a great deal of info public yesterday. Shelly and I realy injoyed hearing what he had to say and was glad he finally made some facts public.There was a lot of conversation in the cockpit not recorded. Ralph gave very exsplicit details on conversations with tina and florence .The piece of info that the FBI held back was the fact that cooper left the tie and clasp on the air craft.Of course we all know why this was info was held for so many years. The chutes cooper took were not to his benifit.Shelly and I realy enjoyed taking the group to the woods.One person mentioned , while we were at dougan falls on the washougal river to shelly if people jump in where do they end up UTAH it was a good experience for all of them.After the tour through the woods every skeptic in the group finally stated that they thought there was no way cooper survived the jump.

Thanks Jerry. Lets talk soon. Our best -
G.

[snowmman 3]

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The dredge used on the columbia had propellers.all material passed through them.

Jerry:

Dredges don't have propellers, even in 1974. They have dredge pumps with impellers. And usually cutterheads.

Where did you get the propeller information? Is there a picture you can scan?

Do you know the name of the dredge used in 1974? Was it the "Oregon"?

There is a technique called "prop dredging" that uses the wash from a propellor to move stuff, but that's not what a pipeline dredge uses. (in fact many states don't allow prop dredging)

(edit) attached some pictures of cutterheads. Not sure what they had. (43 inch) only $5k

(edit) added a 14x12 inch Goulds pump. You can picture the impeller inside.

(edit) added a Nijhuis dredging pump 400mm/500mm

(edit) added a 71 inch cutterhead (only $17k)

all from the place I normally go for dredge components
http://www.dredgebrokers.com/Dredge_Compnts.html

[georger 197]

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The people who want 305 flying more east.

Well okay, let's accept that (with no data).

So why not then also accept that Cooper jumped in the Columbia, just more east?

People don't bring that up...they bring up these little river theories, because they were locked into the "jumping in the woods" fantasy, based on the 8:11 Lake Merwin DZ in 1972...

so mentally they say "well the money find says Lake Merwin area was wrong"...so have to shift around a bit, and look for a river in the woods that feeds the Columbia.

Instead they should focus on flight path and timeline and jump point.

Stepping back and looking at what's fuzzy and what's not, landing in a river other than the Columbia, is the least likely probablity, given all possibilities.

There's just no reason why you would grab on to it. Anyone grabbing on to it is just showing a love of the myth.

Unless someone's going to draw an alternate flight path and timeline. That would be nice. Then we could predict an alternate jump point off of that, that's consistent with other testimony.

But no one will do that. Because it makes it obvious how bogus it is.

Im wondering if the ident at PDX places limits on
where 305 had to be at that instant?

[snowmman 3]

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Im wondering if the ident at PDX places limits on
where 305 had to be at that instant?

Sluggo called it out and implied it did.
We never narrowed down "how close"..i.e. how close would a flight have to be, to get an altimeter setting

(I'm assuming you're referring to the altimeter pressure callout, not an ident request from seattle artcc)

The ident requests from seattle artcc pretty much confirm that radar there, minimally, was tracking 305 on their screens.

[JerryThomas 0]

The small airport east of pdx is troutdale it is located directly across the river from washougal.Yes the pilots were given permission to fly what ever direction they needed they were not on radar and Ralph did make mention of this.The main concern was the safety of people in a populated area.

[georger 197]

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Im wondering if the ident at PDX places limits on
where 305 had to be at that instant?

Sluggo called it out and implied it did.
We never narrowed down "how close"..i.e. how close would a flight have to be, to get an altimeter setting

(I'm assuming you're referring to the altimeter pressure callout, not an ident request from seattle artcc)

The ident requests from seattle artcc pretty much confirm that radar there, minimally, was tracking 305 on their screens.

Thats right. In addition H's helicopter had a set range.
Bohan's flight was also suppopsed to be directly behind
(4 miles?) and above 305 (4000ft).

Jerry's says the airport was Troutdale - Thats it.

[JerryThomas 0]

The reason that the columbia river is not considered the drop zone is because the aicraft hadn't gotten close to it at the time of the jump. This has always been made clear. The FBI did the test to determine the point of time that he jumped. the only way the cabin preasure could have changed the way it did was if someone or thing left the aircraft by the stairs.The test the FBI did proved that beyond a shadow of doubt.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snow your right impeller is the proper use of words. You now have a gold star for this day.

[georger 197]

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The reason that the columbia river is not considered the drop zone is because the aicraft hadn't gotten close to it at the time of the jump. This has always been made clear. The FBI did the test to determine the point of time that he jumped. the only way the cabin preasure could have changed the way it did was if someone or thing left the aircraft by the stairs.The test the FBI did proved that beyond a shadow of doubt.

Jerry, there is one large problem here only H can explain. And that is:

Where did the FBI flight path yellow map Ckret uses come from? Who made it? Why is it so wrong or different in terms of everything we are now talking about. ? And is there an official flight path map
which shows the path you are describing, that we
have never seen?

Those issues have to be answered or nobody is going
to be satisfied.

I know its a stickler but maybe you can just ask
Ralph?

Thanks!

[JerryThomas 0]

Snow i don't no how you are able to get the info you do or how your able to move the info to the forum. admiration is the word that comes to me on this matter some day I'll get a smart pill prescription from my doctor. Then I'll ask you to teach me how to do some of the things you do. Hope I don't get a brain over load.

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger the flight path map Ralph can answer. It came from one of the people that calculated the drop zone the name I don't remember.It did not come from the FBI.

[georger 197]

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Geoger the flight path map Ralph can answer. It came from one of the people that calculated the drop zone the name I don't remember.It did not come from the FBI.

OK. Just so we are clear I am attaching the two maps
at issue: both are labeled.

MAP NO#1 yellow map is the socalled FBI flight path
map Larry posted here. As you can see this flight path goes nowhere near the Washougal but does come down by Lake Merwin. We have no idea who made
this map, at least I dont.

MAP NO#1 This is the original map made by Northwest
Airlines Chief Pilot Super which we think was the map
used to direct a search at Lake Merwin.

Maybe you can show these maps to Ralph? He's seen them before.

Is there a third map the FBI had which we have never seen which shows a flight path east of V23 toward
the Washougal?

Let me know if you have any questions -

[JerryThomas 0]

Geoger Ralph has seen both maps. and both are wrong. You and I have discused this in detail in the past. the fligt path was over the troutdale airport.This was also mentioned at the conference I realy wish all of you could have been there.you would have been enlightened and most of the questions you all ask now would have been answered.There was a aeronaghtical engineer from calif.even his questions were answered. Ralph didn't hold much back.He was,however very ademant about the fact that cooper could not have landed in the columbia river and gave all reasons as to why.Please excuse my spelling. I did mention that you would like to talk to him and he said you could call him and that he would enjoy talking to you.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Let me try to add something to this discussion that will (may) remove one tiny piece of uncertainty. Some may call it anecdotal, if so, I’m not offended. I’m in the same boat with the rest of you, too many statements and not enough “facts”.

In a phone conversation with Ralph Himmelsbach on March 6th, 2009. While sitting in my car outside the Conestoga Steak House in Dothan, AL. I asked Ralph, point blank; “Where did the data for the flight path, shown on the 1970s era Seattle sectional (do you know the one I mean?, Ralph says “yes”) come from?” “Do you know who produced (drew) the map itself?”

Ralph replied (without hesitation); “I DON’T KNOW!”

What I should have (additionally) asked was; “Were you aware of the map BEFORE your retirement?” I will be talking to him next week and I will ask that question then.

Maybe we can figure out the origin of the document that we (I) have put so much faith in.

Sluggo_Monster

Exempt from the “something to this discussion that will (may) remove one tiny piece of uncertainty” statement above:

Aditionally, there is an aviation professional that I am aware of but have not yet been able to contact (but I am trying) who was an eye-witness, and disputes Ralph’s claim about the deviation toward Troutdale (the town, not the airport).

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[JerryThomas 0]

Ralph comented on this at the conference and made the statment just like I posted.I'm sure he will tell you the same I will talk to him today.

[SchlitznGrins 0]

Why did the FBI devote so many resources to the initial search area? They must have gathared the information from the flight crew. Why would Rat and or Scott never 'bother' to let the FBI know they were searching in the wrong location until 10 years after the fact?!?!? There are some things that just do not add up.

[snowmman 3]

jerry said:
"fly what ever direction they needed they needed they were not on radar"

Jerry, this doesn't align with other information.
Who told you 305 wasn't on radar?

The story is wilder every minute!

[snowmman 3]

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Why did the FBI devote so many resources to the initial search area? They must have gathared the information from the flight crew. Why would Rat and or Scott never 'bother' to let the FBI know they were searching in the wrong location until 10 years after the fact?!?!? There are some things that just do not add up.

It's very simple if you remember one thing.

Most of this "stuff" you're hearing is direct from Himmelsbach.
Himmelbach made up a whacky theory about where 305 was, and that's what you're hearing. (this was after he left the FBI)

The only problem with the 72 search area, was how they determined the 8:11 jump point. We don't have enough information to really understand, but it seems like they didn't incorporate, or understand, all of the testimony, at the time.

I also think it wasn't "FBI", but outsiders that created the DZ.
They may not have had all the information.

[nigel99 144]

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The only "data" that suggests the flight path is wrong, is from trying to justify the myth of Cooper jumping in the woods amd dying.

That's the only reason the flight path is challenged.

Because people want Cooper to have jumped in the woods.

Although it's unclear what time they want him to jump at.

It's like they're working back from the myth, and forcing "facts" to fit the myth.

Actually, if people would have realized the timing for the jump was predicted wrong, they wouldn't be so adamant at keeping Cooper in the woods. Because he could have died jumping in the Columbia!

I have a real problem accepting the fact that the map is simply "wrong" and dismissed as casually as that. The map may be in accurate but it is presented as being wildly inaccurate and it sounds like this is simply the recollection of someone of 40 years ago! If the FBI are so incompetent they can't even tell if the raw data is correct then pack up and go home cause dB Cooper may as well have been Santa getting lost on his way from the North Pole.

I also find it odd that it is mentioned the plane was not "on radar"? What is that supposed to mean as ATC radar beams don't decide to randomly "ignore" a plane. The transponder can probably be turned off on the plane which aids ATC (assuming they had those then anyway).

The most interesting recent fact is someone mentioning the complete lack of NWA statements - funny how it is nearly impossible to view the past without distortion as my immediate thought was there must be a mountain of paperwork/risk assessments and other documentation they would have had to fill out. Perhaps back then they just sent a ticket person to the local police dept and reported hijacking and then put in insurance claim over the phone

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[snowmman 3]

"If the FBI are so incompetent they can't even tell if the raw data is correct then pack up and go home cause dB Cooper may as well have been Santa getting lost on his way from the North Pole."


This is exactly correct.
The investigation was incredibly bad. Data was not preserved. Anecdotes ran rampant.

I'm surprised it's just getting into people's heads.

Cooper was a big serious investigation only in the media.
Inside the FBI, it was obviously a clusterfuck.
And all this latest stuff from Himmelsbach, well, its just sad.

(edit) the insurance claim went to court, and the transcript is available. Interestingly the court case is used as a precedent in evaluating "war risk" exclusions in insurance cases. Now with 9/11 and the so called "war on terror" there's this issue about whether hijackings might be exclusions on insurance policies because they would be considered acts of war. Attorneys have tried that defense in the past, but I think so far have been unsuccessful.

[JerryThomas 0]

Your question very good one.So I called Ralph a few minutes ago and ask him. This is what he said, The FBI agents that interviewed the pilots were not pilots themselves and questions a pilot would have asked were not. The airline pilots assumed that the FBI new they were to the east. It wasn't untill Ralphs retirement party that Rat and Ralph talked about this.Then it was realized. Now for the flight map.The map came from NW Airlines engeneers and was at best a guess aparently they hadn't talked to the pilots either.

[snowmman 3]

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Your question very good one.So I called Ralph a few minutes ago and ask him. This is what he said, The FBI agents that interviewed the pilots were not pilots themselves and questions a pilot would have asked were not. The airline pilots assumed that the FBI new they were to the east. It wasn't untill Ralphs retirement party that Rat and Ralph talked about this.Then it was realized. Now for the flight map.The map came from NW Airlines engeneers and was at best a guess aparently they hadn't talked to the pilots either.

How did the pilots know they were east?
What references did they use? instruments, visual? ???

I don't understand why they would know they were flying off V23 and by how much. And if they knew, why they would do that?

[snowmman 3]

nigel99 said:
"I also find it odd that it is mentioned the plane was not "on radar"? What is that supposed to mean as ATC radar beams don't decide to randomly "ignore" a plane. The transponder can probably be turned off on the plane which aids ATC (assuming they had those then anyway)."

305's transponder was on. The Seattle ARTCC transcript notes when the radar operator "loses" 305's transponder (implying no longer visible on his radar).

Also several "ident requests" were given by Seattle ARTCC.

The transponder lost, happened well south of PDX. (in time).

Jerry/Himmelsbach's comment about no radar is wrong.

Now there is a valid question about whether radar data was stored and used in the flight path map. The '72 DZ map implies that radar from McChord was used along with flight recorder data.
That means flight recorder data was recovered.

Now McChord implies military radar, not Seattle ARTCC.

So it's confusing.

But the questions are more subtle than what Jerry is proposing.

[377 20]

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How did the pilots know they were east?
What references did they use? instruments, visual? ???

I don't understand why they would know they were flying off V23 and by how much. And if they knew, why they would do that?

Wouldn't their VOR/DME readout make this fairly easy to determine? They can get distance (DME) and bearing (VOR) to a VORTAC station. That and a little map reading would give you a decent idea of present position and deviation from V23.

The FE could do it if the pilots were busy. It is an easy task, I think. Pilots? Please add your opinions.

Jo is still boldfacing and colorizing but being quite civil. Jerry, Snow, Sluggo and Georger are having a cordial productive dialogue about flight tracks and the reliability of the data.

There is peace in the valley. Savor it. Preserve it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I'm reviewing this, because even I forgot some little details.

The pages that Ckret provided later give more info on the '72 dz map creation (see attached)
The exact name must be known to Sluggo, since he got a copy before it was redacted, right?

It references the "NWA Meteorology Chief" and is signed by someone else from Northwest Airlines.

The NWA Chief Meteorologist was Dan Sowa who worked closely on some things with Soderlind.

So: it does make sense that Paul Soderlind created the DZ map.

We never got the full document that accompanied the DZ map.
We got pages 272 and pages 273 (attached)

In re-reading, here's the exact text that talks about the data used. I just realized it really emphasized that military radar was used. (Although ARTCCs can be joint military/FAA, I think now the radar used for the flight path reallly was McChord, not ARTCC, although ARTCC seemed to track it...which probably says McChord also had no range difficulties tracking 305)

page 272:
Aircraft position from USAF radar data from McChord AFB furnished by Captain REDACTED
...
Time correlation from the above USAF radar information and from the NWA communications network tape recording.
...
Airplane airspeed and altitude from the airplane's flight recorder.

Tom Kaye: See, the flight recorder data used was apparently just airspeed and altitude? So I guess that resolves my question of how the data was merged. Now that I remember, my question of "merging" was before Ckret released these pages. So these pages resolved my question of how data was "merged". There was no merging of data. Data was combined, but not modified based on multiple sources of info.

It also points out that the radar data is first-order. No big reason to search for the flight recorder data until you get radar data.