DB Cooper

[377 20]

Quote

377:
I was thinking along those lines, but I was thinking that Cooper revealed that the SAGE intercept was dysfunctional, i.e. that the Russkies could fly in low, in bad weather, and have their way with us. And so that had to be covered up.

Remember the intercept failed.


Which reminds me, from this month's "Echoes Radomes' Quarterly Publication"

(some interesting comments on multiple targets: they were talking about the possibility of Russkie's coming in on the "radar wake" of a commericial plane. Also. maybe the 0.5 nm radar error may had to do with radar pulse width?


While it's true that the FPS-93a pulse width of 6us is half a radar mile, every intercept controller I ever met was able to visually discriminate multiple targets much closer than that. Two overlapping targets just don't look the same as one. First any range separation at all makes the combined pulse wider than 6us, which is detectable. Second the pulses we got back from aircraft were not clean square-topped pulses, but more of a gaussian shape, having a peak in the middle, so two pulses as close as 3us give a distinct double-peak in the 'scope paint.

Visualize a two-humped camel versus a one-hump. Even though the humps are closer together than the length of the camel, you can still count two humps. Anybody who's ever had a GPA-98 (target and jamming simulator) thrown at them can see the difference instantly, because it's too rectangular. Third if you have two heavy aircraft at the same azimuth (bearing) and range, the paint you get is REALLY strong, which will look wrong to an experienced operator. Furthermore, any lateral separation (azimuth separation, relative to the site) would show up as an abnormally long arc, or a double-peak in the paint brightness, since there's a gaussian shape to the antenna beam as well.

I've seen operators get height cuts on targets accurate to better than 1000 ft, even though the paint is 15,000 ft tall on the 'scope, with water/ground reflections and multiple aircraft close together. In fact it was fairly typical during intercept exercises that the combined paint from three or four aircraft would look to the untrained eye like one big blob, but a good operator could keep them all straight. I've also seen operators pick up targets weaker than the MDS (minimum-discernable-signal) of the radar receiver, just by visually integrating the multiple pulses visible in the persistence of the CRT phosphors. RAdio Detection And Ranging really was an art.

This radar operator anecdote stuff absolutely fascinates me Snow. Details like experienced ops being able to discriminate multiple targets beyond the theoretical limits imposed by pulse length are very interesting. Radar textbooks don't tell you everything apparently.

If SAGE was really working well during NORJACK, the F 106 autopilots could have been controlled from the ground to fly an intercept using the F 106's MA1 fire control systems made by my old employer. Maybe the USAF thought the collision risk too great to use that mode in connection with a civil airliner?

You have shown that the radar ops were always looking for tricks to see things at the limit of their system. Night after night boring boring boring, just airliners and routine USAF flights. A little excitement now and then from exercises.

OK, NORJACK happens. HUGE F-ing deal. Right in the heart of SAGE country, plenty of coverage. Dontcha think every console operator at McChord is trying to see every tiny detail of the flight? I assume they know the hijacker has chutes. Correct? Who will be first to spot the exit? If F 106s were flying chase, wouldnt they kill the data block so that the F 106s could be seen on the scope if they were close to the NWA 727?

The F 106 intercept failed. That must have been very very embarrassing to the USAF. If the SAGE guided F 106s couldnt find a transponder equipped 727 in their home turf what chance would they have intercepting a Russian intruder using ECM?

Wish we knew what went on around all the McChord radar screens that night.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Revisiting old ground...
back in the thread, I had a longer post with some info from two folks who had been SAGE ops (mid-70s or so).

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3227429;search_string=f-106%20intercept;#3227429

an excerpt highlights the probable feeding locations:

"SAGE tied in radars from throughout the region, not just from the home station, and could also get feeds from adjoining divisions. In 1972 the 25th Air Division's area of operations included all of Washington, Oregon and portions of northern California, northern Nevada, western Idaho and western Montana.

The site which probably did most of the tracking once Flight 305 got south towards the Columbia was Mount Hebo AFS (689th RADS) on the Oregon coast, possibly back-stopped by Keno AFS (827th ADG), although that was well south near Klamath Falls and possibly by the 637th ADG at Othello AFS.

Mount Hebo would've provided the best picture of the aircraft and allowed tracking of it with all data transmitted to the SAGE DC. The latter ordered the launch of the two 318th FIS F-106As

(edit)
Also, the guy pointed out that "other" Air Force radar would have been under Tactical Air Command (TAC) and that multiple sites weren't tied together in TAC. Also SAGE didn't have access to TAC radar.

"As to other Air Force radars operating back then, they would have belonged to units of the Tactical Air Command (TAC) and used for their training purposes. SAGE was part of Aerospace Defense Command (ADCOM) and did not have access to TAC radar information.
...

TAC had no system like ADCOM's so whatever an individual site saw, if it was up and running at all, that would have been it."

[377 20]

So am I right in assuming SAGE had NWA 727 target info from at least Mt Hebo AFS?

Do you agree that the SAGE console/intercept operators would probably be at rapt attention? Would they have known that the hijacker had a chute?

It's hard for me to keep all the old info straight. There is so much of it. Sorry if I am going over old stuff.

I just wonder if it is likely that any USAF or USAF radar op might have been looking for Cooper's exit.

Were there any DZs covered by the same radars that were tracking Cooper's flight? If so maybe the operators had experience seeing exiting jumpers on their screens.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

This is a good video I hadn't seen before. put on youtube 3/16/2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06drBN8nlWg

It's 23 minutes long, but if you move the slider up to 16:30, you'll see radar screens and stuff, showing what they did on intercepts.

(they kind of enact an intercept)

Shows the data block 377 is talking about on a radar screen.
There must have been better screens. The ones shown seem to be missing a lot of radar reflections.

http://ed-thelen.org/SageIntro.html
is probably the best overview I've seen. It's the intro for an IBM manual for the AN/FSQ-7 computer used in SAGE (1959-1965)

Has some nice detailed floor plans showing the layout of equipment in a SAGE DC.

attached a map of the SAGE radar sites and sectors from 1958 from radomes.org also, although it's unclear how it mapped to what was in place in 1971. (also low resolution)

[377 20]

A number of Japanese FUGU balloon borne fire bombs launched from Japan did come down in the Pacific Northwest during WW 2. Quite a few were found during the war.

I wonder how many were found after the war? EDIT: see post below, 150 were found post war.

Of course you don't know what you don't know, maybe many are still waiting to be found in the deep woods. They had a fair amount metal stuff on them (batteries, timers, aneroids, and some even had HF tracking transmitters) so they wouldnt dissolve quickly.

Stats might give us a clue as to how likely it is that people will find stuff dropped randomly from the sky in that region.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

This radar operator anecdote stuff absolutely fascinates me Snow. Details like experienced ops being able to discriminate multiple targets beyond the theoretical limits imposed by pulse length are very interesting. Radar textbooks don't tell you everything apparently.

If SAGE was really working well during NORJACK, the F 106 autopilots could have been controlled from the ground to fly an intercept using the F 106's MA1 fire control systems made by my old employer. Maybe the USAF thought the collision risk too great to use that mode in connection with a civil airliner?

You have shown that the radar ops were always looking for tricks to see things at the limit of their system. Night after night boring boring boring, just airliners and routine USAF flights. A little excitement now and then from exercises.

OK, NORJACK happens. HUGE F-ing deal. Right in the heart of SAGE country, plenty of coverage. Dontcha think every console operator at McChord is trying to see every tiny detail of the flight? I assume they know the hijacker has chutes. Correct? Who will be first to spot the exit? If F 106s were flying chase, wouldnt they kill the data block so that the F 106s could be seen on the scope if they were close to the NWA 727?

The F 106 intercept failed. That must have been very very embarrassing to the USAF. If the SAGE guided F 106s couldnt find a transponder equipped 727 in their home turf what chance would they have intercepting a Russian intruder using ECM?

Wish we knew what went on around all the McChord radar screens that night.

377

[377 20]

Quote

Another 100 were found during the war after they had landed. Since August 1945,150 more have been found stretching from The Yukon Territory to Mexico. It is thought that ~1000 Fugu balloons made it across the Pacific so by this figure as many as 700 of these one way mad bombers could be left in the forests, deserts, lakes and mountains of North America. Seeing that each was activated by a 64-foot long delayed fuse upon separated from the balloon a great number of these may be unexploded.

Read more: Japanese Balloon Bombs of WWII: The Empire of Japan's use of one way free balloons to bomb the US

http://air-combat.suite101.com/article.cfm/japanese_balloon_bombs_of_wwii#ixzz0Be1GblFz

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

georger said
"And in lieu of facts the best anyone can say is
exactly what you said: "This radar operator anecdote stuff ..." which proves nothing. There is no proof
it happened the way you outline it, just speculation based on speculative anecdotal material Snow finds.

The intercept failed?

I think your intercept fails. "

Heh.
Back to the regularly scheduled speculation from Tom and Jerry then.

So georger: you can try to explain how radar from McChord was able to provide a flight path to whoever created the '72 DZ map?

Theories?

Maybe Himmelbach and Jerry have a theory?
Diatoms?

[377 20]

Quote

The intercept failed?

I think your intercept fails.

Don't be mean Georger. SAGE and radar anecdotes are just fun for me. They may or may not lead to probative Cooper evidence. So far they have not, you are right about that, but you can say that about most things raised here.

I just wish Jerry would find some Cooper stuff in the woods before we turn to cannibalism here.

Somewhere out there is Cooper's chute. It can't stay hidden forever... or can it?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

So georger: you can try to explain how radar from McChord was able to provide a flight path to whoever created the '72 DZ map?

Theories?

[377 20]

Actually I am surprised the USAF revealed that the 727 intercept by ther F 106s failed. When I worked in the defense radar and avionics business detection and intercept failures were closely guarded secrets. Failures in real or simulated missions revealed weaknesses in our systems and gave potentially valuable info to the enemy.

I would have expected the USAF to give some BS about how the NWA flight was tracked on their radars and that interceptors were scrambled and trailed the plane. If asked about details the USAF would say "sorry, that is classified information".

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

It wasn't till much later that a lot of detail about the F-106's came out.

I was searching the news, and it looks like on 11/25/71 they mentioned military planes. We've gone thru which planes were where.

this account is a little wrong about three being close, but it might be accurate for how close the F-106's got to 305? (two miles).

I wonder if some of this info correlates to a no-pull. (no canopy: nothing to see)

Hijacker Given $200,000 Cash, Is Missing When Airliner Lands
Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 25, 1971
PLANE HIJACK. ... Wibom said the three military planes flew about two miles behind the 727. ...

[snowmman 3]

this was an old post of mine, quoting from the Norjak book.
I just realized, that by telling the T-33 to "stand down", they were basically saying they knew by then that Cooper had jumped already?

They were near Eugene, OR at the time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Details from the T33. Note that Lake Oswego is south of Portland, so all their info doesn't help, since it was after the jump.

Norman Battaglia was going to Portland Air Base for a night training mission, about 5:30 pm. He and pilot Dick Perry went thru their pre-flight, took off around 7:50. Battaglia was Air National Guard officer, in back seat as instructor-pilot.

Shortly after they were airborne, they were told to switch radio to Seattle Center, and Seattle told them to trail 305....

They turned toward Lake Oswego, putting them about 3 miles behind 305. They made radar contact and noted 305 was changing course 45 degrees every 30 seconds. He had to throttle back to 135 knots and fly with landing gear and flaps down to maintain contact.

Near Eugene they were told to break contact, go to Kingsley Field in Klamath Falls.

They say they never saw the 727. At one point they were about 3/4 mile away.

[snowmman 3]

Attached pic from
http://www.alexstoll.com/AircraftOfTheMonth/10-00.html

"The 200 black boxes of the MA-1 system. The missiles standing on their tails are AIM-4F radar-guided Super Falcons
and the missiles in the foreground are AIM-4G IR-guided Super Falcons. Also notice the IRST on the F-106's nose."


How many of the components are now stacked up in 377's closet, ready to be deployed on a homebrew UAV?

[377 20]

Quote

They made radar contact and noted 305 was changing course 45 degrees every 30 seconds.

To the best of my knowledge, the USAF T 33 from 1971 didn't have on board radar that could do this. Do they mean ground radar contact was made?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

377,

You took the words right outta my mouth!

Da Slug

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

They made radar contact and noted 305 was changing course 45 degrees every 30 seconds.

To the best of my knowledge, the USAF T 33 from 1971 didn't have on board radar that could do this. Do they mean ground radar contact was made?

377

interesting. It's from the Norjak book. I scanned and attached the two pages, so you can see for yourself.

You know, I don't think Himmelsbach reviewed the Norjak book very much.

I think it was mostly ghost written by the co-author. Maybe he had some interviews with Himmelsbach. There are a number of passages where Himmelsbach talks first person about going to talk to possible suspects, that are definitely Himmelsbach "talking". But there are some passages that are cribbed from newspaper accounts.

It's odd to find errors like this.

[snowmman 3]

on page 46 of the Norjak book, that I just posted, I just
noticed something.

The T-33 asked for permission to go above 305 for visual contact.

"Seattle Center told the military pilots that Flight 305 couldn't move; it had to stay where it was"

That seems to go against the theory of 305 flying whereever it wanted to.

I know it's weak. Just an interesting comment in the book.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

The T-33 asked for permission to go above 305 for visual contact.

"Seattle Center told the military pilots that Flight 305 couldn't move; it had to stay where it was"

That seems to go against the theory of 305 flying whereever it wanted to.

I know it's weak. Just an interesting comment in the book.

Directly contradicts the transcripts. I'd go with those over a ghost-written book in which you have already found other errors?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

The T-33 is talking to Seattle Center on page 46, while it's near Lake Oswego. (edit) South of Portland.

"Seattle Center kept telling the T33 to slow"

In my mind, this means Seattle Center could see the T-33 on it's radar (the ARTCC center). This would make sense based on what I was saying about the transcripts and the ident/transponder comments.

I think this may give additional info about the radar range capability.

We've talked about how Seattle ARTCC likely got feeds from multiple radar sites. (and what those sites might have been).

So while the 72 DZ map used data from McChord...I'm still thinking Seattle ARTCC must have had data. Maybe they didn't record it.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

The T-33 asked for permission to go above 305 for visual contact.

"Seattle Center told the military pilots that Flight 305 couldn't move; it had to stay where it was"

That seems to go against the theory of 305 flying whereever it wanted to.

I know it's weak. Just an interesting comment in the book.

Directly contradicts the transcripts. I'd go with those over a ghost-written book in which you have already found other errors?

But doesn't it sound like the writer talked to the T-33 pilots?

In re-reading, it does seem to only talk about altitude though, so it's not really in conflict with the transcripts. Maybe means nothing.

[skyjack71 0]

The more I read about the background of the jump and what was going on in the US during the 40's and in the 60's I am starting to believe the Cooper's Jump was a covert CIA operation or a former CIA renegade covert operative.

Those of you who know me know that this keeps coming back to haunt me - that I usually just push it back into whatever mind I have left and go back to the basics that Cooper acted on his own. The memory of things he said and the secretive life he led are making that almost impossible.

Couple the above with things that are discussed in this forum - and individuals who have contacted
me involving 3 things that Duane was involved in during the time frame he was supposedly incarcerated in Jefferson. NOTE: The FBI never made the Jefferson file available to me. When I first asked for that file the detail file was still available -(the are destroyed after 30 yrs).

All that is available now to me is what is in the public records. The actual detailed prison file would now have been destroyed - unless the FBI acquired a copy of the details in 1998...or before.

The FBI continues to use the file letter of 1998 stating they had thourougly investigated Duane Weber, BUT they have never produced that JEFFERSON file to his widow...and I don't mean the limited information available in public records.

The dragging of the investigation and not supplying me with the information I have requested - shouts - CIA or Covert CIA involvement. Carr stated right here in this forum that he thought I had the records and promised to send them to me - I am still waiting.

That was a loaded statement - The FBI feared I had already obtained his detailed Jefferson records thru someone else since the prison system had another enquiry before I went public. My opininon right now is that Carr was on a fishing expedition.

Well, there was a request on those records prior to the destruction date......................and someone has them. A 5 time Felon is sent to Jefferson and released in 2 yrs?
Not just released, but Commuted.

This same person is reported to be in other locations while he is supposed to be in prison. I didn't know you could have a "leave" while you were serving time in a federal prison? Also if a prisoner is put in Solitary - it is very unlikely he got a Commutation after serving 2 yrs of a 7 yrs plus sentence??????????????????????

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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Directly contradicts the transcripts. I'd go with those over a ghost-written book in which you have already found other errors?

Indeed...

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Directly contradicts the transcripts. I'd go with those over a ghost-written book in which you have already found other errors?

Indeed...

I guess I don't understand the "Indeed"

How did the T-33 vector to flight 305? How did he get close to 305?
It was night. Bad weather.
(I'm not a pilot)

[georger 197]

Quote

Actually I am surprised the USAF revealed that the 727 intercept by ther F 106s failed.

OK, I must have missed something important here.

I dont mean to be "mean" but, where is the
"document" you keep refrring to? I must have missed it. I have not seen it. Apologies that I
was asleep and missed it -

Where is this document. ???