DB Cooper

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

One thing I know about you is that you call them how you see them.

If you say you do not think there's anyway those bills went through a dredge, then I'll concur.

There are other reasons to think it was dredged, the least of which being the sand strata.

[snowmman 3]

interesting 377. But kelp is really really long.
Did the kelp get mangled into pieces smaller than 6" long? probably not...i.e. not all the pieces coming out were <6" long?. Dollar bills are 2.5"x6"

And also remember, the outside bills might get mangled, protecting the inside ones that appear good after the mangled ones fall away

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From what I have seen of kelp and other "stuff" that goes through dredges and ends up in what the dredgers call spoils (the output), I do not think the found money went through a dredge pump, it's just waaaay too "intact". Kelp (an aquatic plant) gets mangled and cut, but not totally macerated or shredded.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Do you want me to call up a geologist and ask for more information?

I've thought about all this stuff, but it always helps to have someone on the sidelines begging the question.

Rates of accumulation change over time. 3 inches probably wouldn't be a constant... there would be more accumulation there than out in the woods though. But, one thing I can tell you is that geologically speaking, strata is happening at all times and everywhere. The dirt you walk on today is not the dirt you walked on decades ago.

[snowmman 3]

that would be cool. It would be really cool for someone to dig today and get a photo. I have no idea what it might be like today. the clay layer might be gone. Heck there might be more money

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Do you want me to call up a geologist and ask for more information?

I've thought about all this stuff, but it always helps to have someone on the sidelines begging the question.

Rates of accumulation change over time. 3 inches probably wouldn't be a constant... there would be more accumulation there than out in the woods though. But, one thing I can tell you is that geologically speaking, strata is happening at all times and everywhere. The dirt you walk on today is not the dirt you walked on decades ago.

[377 21]

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interesting 377. But kelp is really really long.
Did the kelp get mangled into pieces smaller than 6" long? probably not...i.e. not all the pieces coming out were <6" long?. Dollar bills are 2.5"x6"

And also remember, the outside bills might get mangled, protecting the inside ones that appear good after the mangled ones fall away

Good point Snowman. There were pieces of kelp in the six inch length category that were in the dredge spoils. I just think the turbulence would have separated the bills from the stacks unless they were VERY tightly bound. I also think there is a very low chance that adjacent stacks would be dredged up and exit the pump still next to or very close to each other. Just an opinion. I am no geologist or dredge expert.

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From what I have seen of kelp and other "stuff" that goes through dredges and ends up in what the dredgers call spoils (the output), I do not think the found money went through a dredge pump, it's just waaaay too "intact". Kelp (an aquatic plant) gets mangled and cut, but not totally macerated or shredded.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Albert18 0]

Let me see where we are.

We aren’t comfortable with the idea somebody buried the money on the beach and we aren’t comfortable with the idea it arrived there by natural means. This is not good.

Unless Ckret finds some teeth where he is digging, I think the only way to find Cooper is to use the other door. Sort him out from the pool of people he must have come from. Like Ckret said, that is probably impossible now.

I agree with 377 that Cooper must have had a job that provided him with information. It would be interesting to know the course the FBI took in conducting this investigation. Did the investigators concentrate solely on the skydiving community? Did they drag a net through the aviation community in the Seattle area? What about fired air traffic controllers?

I know SafeCracking doesn’t like messing with the flight path and maybe he has something there.

In the communication log, the flight crew is told to determine when Cooper jumps and then notify the ground immediately and blink their lights. This tells me the people on the ground were on top of the situation. They knew that their best chance of finding Cooper was to know when he jumped. But it would do them no good to know when he jumped, if they didn’t know where the plane was at the time. So wouldn’t they have been keeping a very detailed plot of the course of the airplane as it flew? Any disgruntled ex-air traffic controllers out there know the answer to this?

[BigSky 2]

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that would be cool. It would be really cool for someone to dig today and get a photo. I have no idea what it might be like today. the clay layer might be gone. Heck there might be more money

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I could do this......however if I have to dig 84" down Im not sure I want to

There have been so many things talked about here that I am starting to get some of them mixed up but why dose Cooper need to have some great knowlage of the plane. Dident he ask for the stairs to be down at take off? If so then he didnet "know" he could open them in flight.

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[Ckret 0]

The dig was just for confirmation we had nothing, I have now confirmed we still have nothing.

Cooper did want the airstairs down at take-off, when he learned they could not be down for take off he said, "thats ok, the cockpit can do it after we take off." This was wrong on his part, the air stairs can only be lowered from the rear of the aircraft.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I don't think there would be much to be gained from digging in the sand. How could you differentiate between layers? Someone who knows what's going on would need to do that. I wouldn't even know where to begin... but I could ask a geologist about sand accumulation and such, just general knowlegde type things.

I mean, 28 years of accumulation, dredging, etc... no way. I'd get lost and so would pretty much anyone unless they KNEW what they were doing and knew the layers they were going through.

Albert:
But it would do them no good to know when he jumped, if they didn’t know where the plane was at the time.

I think this only shows the mind set of the pilots. There were those chase planes and the goal was to see him jump. If the plane alerts them as to his jump time, they can be on the look-out. That's my guess.

Well, in the end, they did log the time. They then had to backtrack with radar to get the jump point.

Rataczak clearly said that he "quickly" got on with ATC and told them he felt he had jumped.

This is why timeline would be tough to crack.

[mark 102]

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Cooper did want the airstairs down at take-off, when he learned they could not be down for take off he said, "thats ok, the cockpit can do it after we take off." This was wrong on his part, the air stairs can only be lowered from the rear of the aircraft.

Is the ramp on a C-130 (C-123, C-124, etc) controlled from the cockpit, from a station near the ramp, or both?

Mark

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

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The dig was just for confirmation we had nothing, I have now confirmed we still have nothing.

Ckret,

From seeing the post you made above and Cossey's statements about the Canopy, can we now oficially conclude this canopy is not related to the case, or a hoax?

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[377 21]

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The dig was just for confirmation we had nothing, I have now confirmed we still have nothing.

Cooper did want the airstairs down at take-off, when he learned they could not be down for take off he said, "thats ok, the cockpit can do it after we take off." This was wrong on his part, the air stairs can only be lowered from the rear of the aircraft.

hmmm, if that quote is verbatim then it's possible that Cooper didn't know as nearly as much about 727 in flight stair deployment as I had presumed. If I am reading my 727 manual correctly, the only controls are in the rear, OUTSIDE of the pressure bulkhead door. Nothing door related in the cockpit other than warning lights for doors ajar and cabin pressure loss.

Man, this is frustrating. With Cooper's apparently savvy instruction about pressurization, flap angles, airspeed , gear down etc, I'd peg him as having studied the matter very carefully before the hijack, yet his comment about opening the rear door from the cockpit says otherwise.

Could it be that Cooper only read the Boeing info about the flight test results with the stairs deployed and did not study a systems manual that detailed where the switches were located for opening the rear door and lowering the stairs? Might be a clue there. I am beginning to seriously consider a Boeing connection, something which Ckret mentioned.

I have emailed a former NWA 727 training captain to ask him whether info on in flight stair deployment was in manuals or a part of NWA's 727 training syllabus at the time of the hijack. No reply yet.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

[Edit: Ignore. ckret discounts the money in coat as myth]

This has been mentioned before, but I wanted to put a point on it in the context of the discussion on money being protected by bag.

Supposedly he put some money in the pockets of his coat. Probably just a couple of bundles.

So the money exited the plane in two containers. The money bag, and his coat. His coat was probably being worn underneath the harness. You can imagine that the money in the coat was most closely strapped to his body.

But the rest of the money in the bag tied around his waist (supposed attach method). ...I don't know if the harness was put on before or after the money bag tie on. I could imagine it's a tight fit? so that the money bag is probably over the harness?

so maybe the money in his jacket is more protected over time, if stuff is rotting away on the ground if he cratered.

In any case, any theory about the money found on the Columbia, should allow for the money being from either the jacket or the money bag. It's equally likely. No data to suggest either is more likely.

In fact since it's a smaller amount, it could be more likely that it was the bundles from his jacket?. The jacket being lighter and probably unfolding after sufficient rot/decay might actually float on the river much better than a money bag with more of the money, and travel a long way?

So he craters somewhere. Eventually jacket comes off, floats a long way and then ends up on the shore.

Or he tossed the jacket on landing and forgot there was money in it. He would probably be pretty distressed on landing and just wanting to ditch the gear and get out of there.

[snowmman 3]

Safe's comments on strata got me thinking.

The sand and clay on the beach, does not change the same way everywhere along the river. In some areas it goes away, in some areas it gets added. It changes year to year.

If over time the shores are relatively constant it means your addition and deletion behaviors over time balance out. Some points of the river might be more prone to accumulation, like the inside of a turn (slower currents)

My point is that "some" beach area might have gotten eroded away, exposing the money which then drifted down to the turn in the river and got thrown up on the beach and discovered relatively soon after that.

But since we don't know where it got eroded from, it could have been from most anywhere.

This sounds stupid, but it means that the dredging operation and the clay layer add no data to the investigation. Since we know the water can throw stuff that far up the beach (evidently from anecdotal comments) then the money could have gotten thrown up there that year, and got cut loose from most anywhere.

I think there is nothing on the beach that can be used to reliably date anything. The money just appeared.

It probably drifted there that year. Where it was from '71-'80 is just going to be a random guess.

Now when it floated on the river, I guess it must have been held together by the bag (or other debris snagged after 1971?) for the 3 bundles to get deposited close together. And when it got to the final resting spot, the bag (or ???) got ripped and blown away by the wind. So yeah, some protective container/stuff travelled with the bills on that float, but then disappeared.

[Ckret 0]

Putting money in his pockets is a myth, didn't happen, according to the witnesses.

[377 21]

Here is the NWA 727 training captain's reply:

Mark,

I can see why there is no mention of in flight operation of the airstair. If there was any mention of it would be in the B-727 original AFM or Approved Flight Manual. I’m sure every operator of 727s wanted no part of some idiot ferrying one of their airplanes someplace without passengers and deciding to try the airstair in flight. Depending on Mr. Cooper’s intellect had he been researching a way to exit a 727 he would only have to fly someplace without a jetway and check the stairs out for himself. If he had any parachute training the rest would be simple. The stairs are extended with 3000 lbs of hydraulic pressure from 2 fairly powerful electric pumps. His only difficult would have been if the pilots were going way too fast and there again any parachute training would have given him a target airspeed. I’m not sure if I have been any help but if I can help anymore just email me.

S

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

Yes, it's official, the canopy was not Coopers

[bigway 4]

Who's was it?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[377 21]

Unless someone has a 727 flight manual that differs from my Continental 727-100 contents, Cooper had to look elsewhere to find that a 727 rear stair can be deployed in flight. Where is "elsewhere"? Boeing? anywhere else?

Cooper may have been an idiot and boarded the 727 with just a hope and no proof that the stairs could be deployed in flight, but that is VERY doubtful given all his knowledge and generally correct instructions about flaps, gear, pressure and airspeed.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

I don't know, we now have our first official spin off mystery. Someone start a a new thread.

[Ckret 0]

Again, as i have stated several times, Cooper way over estimated himself. He is the poster child of "just enough information to be dangerous"

[airtime1 2]

SILK canopy buried in the ground?

[bigway 4]

Thanks for coming back to the thread. I hope this time you stay.

Out of curiosity, i get this funny feeling that if something happened to you in the line of duty or you had an accident that it would be the end of the cooper case?

Is there anyone else that you work with interested if this case?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Ckret 0]

I am not sure about it being silk, if it was, it was not in the ground that long

[Ckret 0]

It would be the end of the Cooper case, good thing I score 100's at the range.