Sluggo_Monster 0 #726 March 31, 2008 The news statement was "near Amboy, WA" not "in Amboy, WA". In Post #424 I uploaded a screen capture of Larry Carr pointing to a point on the January 1972 search map (I have a high-res copy). Collaborating with Safe...PLF and others we determened that he was pointing approximately to the Ceader Creek location as found in the .klm. See: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=97468; I have some more to follow. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #727 March 31, 2008 Speedy, Interesting thought. I will be interested to read the Hancock statement to see if Cooper was harnessing up BEFORE speaking to Rataczak... that would play directly into that idea. Well, I was going to post on this anyway, but someone new already touched on it. There are witnesses who swear the plane was on a different flight path that night. Witnesses meaning people who either heard or saw the plane in a totally different location. I know of one witness, someone I've spoken to personally, who was reading a book that night between 8-8:30 and heard an enormous roar from a slow moving jet go over her house. What made it so odd was that this person lived in Cougar at the time and it's extremely quiet out there. Cougar meaning west side of Yale Lake! If I go off of her testimony, it would mean the plane was 13.5 miles off course to the East. Apparently this witness knows of another family that lived close by who corroborated hearing the same thing. Incidentally, some Portland FBI agents interviewed this woman and her husband a few days later because the husband witnessed a man dressed in a business suit heading west on Lewis River Road, but the location of the spotting was literally on the north side of Yale Lake... implying that he was coming from the east! This husband claimed to think it was odd clothing for the location (this is way up in the mountains) and was expecting to see a broken down car, which he never saw. The husband was working construction on the east side of Swift Resevoir. As posted already, in Friday's Columbian, Dennis Levanen was quoted as saying the plane was in the wrong location as well. He places the plane in Heisson, 7 miles east of point F on the Jan 72 landing zone map. If you actually thought the parachute was found in Amboy, then you could trace a line between Cougar, Amboy and Heisson and have them all line up. The problem is, this jet would be coming from Mt. St. Helens, not MALAY. Further, it should be noted, there were several witnesses in Ariel who vividly remember the roar of the jet flying over their town Thanksgiving Eve. Therefore, we have witnesses who swear the jet was East and witnesses who swear the jet was right where McChord AFB said it was. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #728 March 31, 2008 All, I received some information from a quasi-anonymous source. I tried to verify whether it was the truth or just someone with time on their hands and a fertile imagination, but I was unable to do so. Requests for a source, so I could verify the authenticity of the information, have gone un-answered so I’m going to post this, with the caveat as just stated. I have uploaded two images the first (Truck-and-Tractor-5583-ft-ANN-RED.jpg) is a Google Earth Image (taken 05/07-2007) at an apparent altitude of 5583 feet. It shows the approximate parachute location and a region of interest labeled “Truck and Tractor”. The other image (Truck and Tractor-Close.jpg) is at an apparent altitude of 1080 feet. The quasi-anonymous source claims the truck is parked over the location of the parachute find. I sat on this for one day, waiting for a response from the sender, so, now I’m posting. It’s yours, for what it’s worth. Once again, this is not my work, I don’t do rumors, myths, and conjecture. Well, maybe conjecture. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #729 March 31, 2008 Sounds like a fertile imagination to me. It's still right on line AB (barely north), so it's not as though the location would be without merit. It also looks a lot like the clear cut area depicted in the KOIN news piece from last week. I think the anonymous person was just using conjecture based on "likely" tractor work in the area. But, we shall know soon enough whenever Ckret gets the okay to share the location. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert18 0 #730 March 31, 2008 Don't forget there were chase planes flying that night so it would be interesting to know their flight paths and the elevation they were flying. The fighters got recalled but I don't know how far south they had gotten before that happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #731 March 31, 2008 Ckret requested that I calculate a new line AB based on the Washougal watershed. The original line AB was derived by taking the known coordinates of the plane and backing into a probable jump location. This first part would be required to calculate a drift line. If all we're looking for is a drift line that's within the Washougal region, we could do it. In my "myths debunked" post on the old thread, I stated that the drift vector would be between 225 and 235 degrees. The people who put together that 1972 landing zone map calculated a resultant vector of 233.54 deg. Points A & B are roughly 3.78 miles apart. I could therefore use their work to draw some lines near the Washougal watershed. The lines would be at 233.54 degrees. The length of the line would be dependent upon the elevation. The elevation in that area is much greater than the original landing area. Further, the flight path would need to be adjusted. Attached you will see a proposed flight path if I drew a straight line from the eye witness who said the plane flew over her house to the Washougal boundary and then over to RAWER. At its widest point, the plane would be over 13 miles off course. Sluggo the pilot could give us an idea of how likely this proposed flight path would be in terms of route, off course, radar mislocation, etc. Keep in mind, this proposed route flies east of PDX and not west of PDX like V-23 would dictate. It goes without saying, but the timeline would absolutely have to be after 8:11. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #732 March 31, 2008 Oh trust me, I remember the chase planes. I've wondered what these eye witnesses heard. They all describe a large/slow jet. I can tell the difference between a commercial jet and a fighter just by the sound, and I'm not an aviation guy. Therefore, I'd expect the witnesses to be able to distinguish the difference as well. Not that I don't think it could have been a chase plane, but perhaps reverberation throughout the mountains. Simply put, I just don't know. I believe the witnesses (they have no reason to lie), I just don't know what to make of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SKYWHUFFO 0 #733 March 31, 2008 Did i look at the map wrong? The new flight line is in the opposite wind direction (east of)of where this canopy was found and the money was found. I am just an Indiana boy, if i am not looking at corn fields i get turned around. HA! Straighten me out Safe, between you and Sluggo i have seen a lot of numbers. Can you put on you new flight line map the money and canopy locations if i am not looking at this right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #734 March 31, 2008 I have added a pic that shows where the money was discovered. You will see it marked with an "X". There are no "drift lines" on the map, only drew a proposed flight path next to the "known" path. The "WR___" numbers are actual boundary points to the Washougal watershed. Anything within those points feeds the Washougal River. The points extend further south, I only used the north western most points in that particular map. Point "H" refers to the 1972 landing zone map. Just updated that post again, and added the approximate canopy location. It's labled as "Carr points to here" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #735 March 31, 2008 I reserve the right to retract this later, but their clearance was on V-23. The hand drawn line on the Av Chart (from the FBI Website) shows a lot of wiggling around but still just a couple of miles (maybe 4) away from V-23. A month ago, I would have said that they wouldn’t have gotten even that far off the Victor Airway. But, after reading the transcript, I realized they were struggling with a lot of issues and this was before the concept of “Cockpit Resource Management” was taught to pilots. That, coupled with the fact that they were flying in an unusual attitude, at an unusual altitude, and a never before flown configuration (for those pilots) it is easy to see that they might have gotten 2 - 4 NM off course. (Remember, the pilot hadn’t even looked at the charts and studied the FP before take-off.) However, 13 Stat. miles, is a bit much, plus ATC would have surely given them warnings if they were that far off (even though they gave them 4000 ft of altitude variance, something unheard of in a normal flight). The pilot was (surely) aware that the terrain (higher terrain) was to the east, so any major intentional deviation from V-23 would have been to the west. Remember, these pilots usually fly at FL26 (26,000 ft.) to FL38 (or so), scud-running in a B-727 would be contrary to there experience and hence they would have been out of their “Comfort Zone”. That cannot be fun. So, I would place the likelihood of them being 13 Stat. Miles off (to the East) of V-23 to nil. Any Part 121 pilots out there, want to comment, I yield the floor to you. PS: I’m fairly sure the only aircraft “in chase” at the approximate jump time was a helicopter (nervous palm-tree), since it was referred to (in the transcripts) as “Rescue ##”. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #736 March 31, 2008 Didn't the chopper come in later? (further south) And then it was a lose-lose... the fighters were too fast and the chopper was too slow. Thank you for the opinion. One other factor would be that the McChord radar would have had to been way off as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #737 March 31, 2008 Hey SafecrackingPLF and Skywhuffo, Don't you guys have jobs or something. How can you sit around all day and chase a dead guy? (Or maybe a live guy.) Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #738 March 31, 2008 ha ha ha... yep, got to get to work! I will be back online later. Am eagerly awaiting some new discoveries... It's either: eye witness testimony placing the plane east forensic analysis on the money showing it had to come from Washougal absolute verification that the timeline was off Something along those lines. Any one of them would be fairly significant... well, the eyewitness stuff has been known for decades and I take it for what it's worth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #739 March 31, 2008 Quote(even though they gave them 4000 ft of altitude variance, something unheard of in a normal flight). Actually, a clearance for a block of altitudes is not uncommon at all. In emergency situations (which this clearly was), ATC is going to let a pilot pretty much do whatever the hell he wants and it's going to be ATC's job to keep other planes out of his way. Not being exactly on course would not have been unexpected considering the circumstances.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafecrackingPLF 0 #740 March 31, 2008 A lot of your questions would be answered if you were to read the posts. I just posted a statement from Rataczak (the only living pilot). He explicitly stated that the demand for 15 degree flaps came later. He also said Cooper requested two front, two back. Himmelsbach has also stated this. Rataczak pretty much paraphrased the original note given to Schaffner. A line going from Heisson to the recovered money? Like I said, Heisson is 7 miles east of where the radar put the plane, and the route you specify would be fairly "wild"... not to mention, the notion that the money simply flew out the back of the plane and landed in the sand does not explain the recovered money... there's much, much more to it than that (such as condition and timeline of deposit). You seem to be well-read, but you'd be better served pouring over the old thread and then this one before posting loads of questions (that have already been answered). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ckret 0 #741 March 31, 2008 Snowman, welcome The answers to all of your questions have been posted and discussed. Start at page 18 of the old DB Cooper thread and read to date. By the time you get back to this post you will be a DB Cooper expert. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #742 March 31, 2008 QuoteI Cooper was consistent in saying the aft door would be open and the stairs lowered after they took off. not before. Later when they finally acknowledged the plane had been flown this way before, with flaps down and gear down, and 2-300 lb boxes shoved out, they realized they didn't have to take off with the stairs down. Cooper was the one who knew you could lower the stairs in flight. The crew/tower had to come around to that point of view. You are new and very knowledgable - must be FBI or expert who has been asked to engage. I think the fact that you have said what I have tried to say to the FBI is great. Most do not know that there are two stages to the stairway. One is the lowering of the door and the other is the extension of the stair way which will drop with weight or a mechanism to lower it electronically or manually.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #743 March 31, 2008 Quote All, I received some information from a quasi-anonymous source. I tried to verify whether it was the truth or just someone with time on their hands and a fertile imagination, but I was unable to do so. Requests for a source, so I could verify the authenticity of the information, have gone un-answered so I’m going to post this, with the caveat as just stated. I have uploaded two images the first (Truck-and-Tractor-5583-ft-ANN-RED.jpg) is a Google Earth Image (taken 05/07-2007) at an apparent altitude of 5583 feet. It shows the approximate parachute location and a region of interest labeled “Truck and Tractor”. The other image (Truck and Tractor-Close.jpg) is at an apparent altitude of 1080 feet. The quasi-anonymous source claims the truck is parked over the location of the parachute find. I sat on this for one day, waiting for a response from the sender, so, now I’m posting. It’s yours, for what it’s worth. Once again, this is not my work, I don’t do rumors, myths, and conjecture. Well, maybe conjecture. Sluggo_Monster Well, I finally got confirmation on this info. It is not fact based. It is someone's conjecture. Appologies to all for the false alert. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #744 March 31, 2008 Quote Quote Cooper was consistent in saying the aft door would be open and the stairs lowered after they took off. not before. Later when they finally acknowledged the plane had been flown this way before, with flaps down and gear down, and 2-300 lb boxes shoved out, they realized they didn't have to take off with the stairs down. Cooper was the one who knew you could lower the stairs in flight. The crew/tower had to come around to that point of view. You are new and very knowledgable - must be FBI or expert who has been asked to engage. I think the fact that you have said what I have tried to say to the FBI is great. Maybe he is very knowledgeable, not to detract however his "deductions" in this sense come simply from reading the transcripts... I was also quite surprised to see the whole debate going on there, but there they are. Though the transcripts seem new to a couple of us here, I'm sure they have been available to those who went looking for a much longer time... I like the theory about Cooper being a disgruntled Boeing engineer - and the rest of his theory too ... think anyone is gonna go sifting through all that mud? [sits back with popcorn] ....Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #745 March 31, 2008 thanks for replies. I'll go back and read all posts where my thinking's at: So I'm pissed off because they fired me in Mar. '71. Yeah I wear a clip on tie even though I'm in my 40s. That's just who I am. It's not like it's a disguise or anything. I didn't plan on leaving it. It's one I normally wore to work. I'm a tie wearer. That's why I have a tie clip. Why did I dress like that? No huge plan, I went with what made me comfortable and feel like I was in control. If I dress like someone else, it'll be obvious. I'll stick out. I'll know I'm fake. I didn't bring a gun because I wasn't going to shoot someone just because of my bad attitude. I knew the bomb looked kind of embarassingly fake, that's why I just flashed it. But hey I'm an engineer...I spent more time on building my little fake bomb, then getting a gun which would have been more useful in guaranteeing success of the plan. To be honest, there was part of me that just wanted to show them, so maybe I did have a little tunnel vision...yeah all of them while they're sitting around eating their Thanksgiving dinner. They'll be talking about me. I was unmarried. Heck if they shot me or I died in the jump, to be honest it wouldn't really matter. The bomb is why I felt confident. Of course they're going to do what I say. I've got a bomb! And I even know the script they'll follow, just like all the other hijackings. To be honest I was slightly surprised when it all went to plan. When it came time to jump, I just had to go. I wasn't going to stay on the plane. You stay on the plane, you go to jail. There was no option other than to go out the door and take my chances. I picked the camo rig over the padded Pioneer sport rig, because I was a little concerned I didn't quite understand the sport rig. The simpler-looking rig looked like it would "just work". Yeah I initially asked for just two backpack rigs, but then when they started talking about it, I thought yeah okay reserves...that might make it safer...I didn't really know anything about whether I could actually use a reserve successfully but it sounded good. And the flaps..well I just said lowered flaps and gear, and then the pilot says "what flap position" and I say well what's typical? and he says 15 so I say yeah 15 that's why the 15 came up later. oh and my name. First name Donald. Middle name Cooper. Last name xxx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ckret 0 #746 March 31, 2008 I think your right on for the most part, but Cooper did ask in his original demand for four chutes and wanted the airstairs down at takeoff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #747 March 31, 2008 I got a request to post this photo here. It was taken just after dawn on 11/25/1971 by Marilyn Newton a photographer for the Reno Gazette-Journal. I think the stairs that lower from the aft door (sometimes referred to as the ramp) were badly damaged. But, it didn't seem to keep them from securing the aft door. I believe the plane is exactly where it was parked the night before, but I'll have to dig that info up. I have another photo with the door open, but I'll have to find it. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #748 March 31, 2008 The money floated down the Lewis River. It got upstream to that dredging operation on the Columbia in a very interesting way. They had been using the dredging equipment up by where the Lewis drains into the Columbia. The equipment wasn't 100% cleaned out/some material was still on the barge when they moved upstream to the Tina Bar location. Dredging Tina Bar dumped out some of the debris left over from the Lewis River dredge *** Ckret said, a long time ago: What kills the whole theory the money got there the night of or just after is the dredging operation in 74. They put almost two feet of sand and clay on the beach. If the money had been put there the night of, there is no way it could have worked it's way to the surface through the clay deposit. *** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jose9878 0 #749 March 31, 2008 There's quite a bit of information on canopies, containers & serial numbers in the Parachute Manual. Search nb-6 or nb-6 serial number in google books. http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA245&dq=nb-6+serial+number&sig=KyVFR5nMFXaBizW0qVkF-omFzs8#PPA245,M1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #750 March 31, 2008 assume the FBI map is right. The money goes into the Lewis River. The reason it gets found at a site that got dredged is because the dredging operation put it there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
