DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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As an example of myths, people might think of the Cooper glasses as Ray Ban 2030 Predator 8's, that Tommy Lee Jones wore in "Men in Black".

They're not though. And they're not like what Tom Cruise wore in "Risk Business" (Wayfarers)

I went thru the Ray Ban current collection and attached those that I think are close. I haven't done a final pick for what I think are the best match to the glasses in the sketch.

(edit) I attached the '71 sketch with glasses. I think I'm voting for RB2016's as best match? What you think?

The 2016s are a good match Snow, but they have that Ray Ban logo on the side that would have been noted. Maybe he bought some cheap knockoffs. Isn't there a rock song about that? I think it is called "cheap sunglasses." Wish Flo or Tina had noted whether they appeared to have Rx lenses.

377

377, if you are talking about the logo on the side of the frames that is a relatively (vs Cooper) recent addition. My first pair of wayfarers, which i bought in umm 1988 i think, didn't have that. when they got stolen a few years later and i replaced them, the new ones did. I would assume similar for other styles of Ray-Ban.

Of course i would expect someone who wears clip-on ties to wear cheap sunglasses too, but others may think i am judging people of the era wrong.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

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Before I die, I have to remember to leave a note saying I am not any famous unsolved mystery criminal. Can you imagine having someone spend years investigating your life the way Jo has for Duane? What a waste.

Depends on how you define waste Orange. Sometimes unfinished urgent personal business gives older people a reason to get up every morning and charge ahead. That has some value.

Jo sincerely believes her theories and they cause little harm or bother to us. Sometimes we act a bit unkind to her, but it's Christmas time so let's cut everyone, including Jo, a little extra slack.

I have noticed a crack in the armor where Jo is admitting the possibility that Duane was not Cooper but knew Cooper and had access to some of his belongings. Some might call that progress. If The Duane as Cooper thing were a true diagnosable psychiatric obsession she would not admit to any other possibilities, right? Georger? Orange?

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. We have a lot to look foreward to in 2009 including the National Geographic DB Cooper special.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 200]

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I found an intriguing site that has info and pictures on cigarettes smoked by troops in WWII.

it sells reproduction packages (who knew people would collect that?)

in any case, there's an interesting comment about Raleigh:
"The often less desired Raleigh Cigarettes. Still a great display piece, and seemingly a default cigarette issued to the frontline Joes."
http://www.wwiisupply.com/smokes.html

another site notes:
"the way we had to buy two packs of Raleigh cigarettes in order to get one of Lucky Strikes during the shortages of World War II? ..."

i.e. Lucky Strikes were preferred. Raleighs more plentiful.

Found another site that showed the bulk packaging the shipped the Raleighs in, to the WWII troops.

Maybe the Raleighs were just another sign of "not much money in Cooper's pockets?"

Raleighs came with a coupon. People collected
them (like Green Stamps), to be redemed for
merchandise. Its a very long shot, records may
not even exist, but if we had an area it might be
something to look for .... there were even a few
redemption centres around the country you could walk in to ... some of the Green Stamp centres
also redemed Raleigh coupons etc...

Georger

[Orange1 0]

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Before I die, I have to remember to leave a note saying I am not any famous unsolved mystery criminal. Can you imagine having someone spend years investigating your life the way Jo has for Duane? What a waste.

Depends on how you define waste Orange. Sometimes unfinished urgent personal business gives older people a reason to get up every morning and charge ahead. That has some value.

Jo sincerely believes her theories and they cause little harm or bother to us. Sometimes we act a bit unkind to her, but it's Christmas time so let's cut everyone, including Jo, a little extra slack.

I have noticed a crack in the armor where Jo is admitting the possibility that Duane was not Cooper but knew Cooper and had access to some of his belongings. Some might call that progress. If The Duane as Cooper thing were a true diagnosable psychiatric obsession she would not admit to any other possibilities, right? Georger? Orange?

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. We have a lot to look foreward to in 2009 including the National Geographic DB Cooper special.

377

Was Snow who wrote that extract, not me.

Point taken about the delusional aspect. Every so often Jo seems to backtrack a bit (immediately after the DNA test on the tie for example, and on the fact that someone else may be Cooper) but then she always seems to go back to she "knows" Duane was Cooper.

Echoing 377's seasonal greetings, and adding in a happy Hanukka to those who celebrate it :)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 200]

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[As for the mouth of the prison photo - He was Mad as Hell wasnt he. Some of you are so set in your opinion that Duane was NOT Cooper that you failed to see the obvious - you focused on the expression and the lower lips - what you didn't see is the turn at the corners of the mouth.

Actually I did see that and guessed that is what you were looking at. But come on Jo, MANY people have that expression when they are angry. There is a reason that cartoon caricatures of angry people are drawn like that - like this for example: .

This has nothing to do with expressions or with
glasses but with basic bone structure and proportions.

It's like arguing a house cat is a camel.

People have skipped over this for years. That's
fine but no more.

Georger

[georger 200]

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In Snow's defense he has I am sure been concentrating on a lot of other things, leads etc as well and not purely on Duane for 13 years.

No I remembered everything Jo had said before about the glasses. It was garbage when she said it, and it's garbage now. And those sunglasses she posted aren't a good match in my view.

I am interested in finding a good match for the sunglasses, circa 1971. If anyone finds pics, post away.

I was thinking about the old Oakley razor blades. You know how guys who wanted to appear "hi energy" etc used to wear them. I wonder if the older Cooper picked the wraparounds because of some self image thing...thinking about him being a risk taker also.
It kind of goes against the image of the middle-aged downtrodden guy in a black suit. So the sunglasses seem interesting. (as does the choice of clip-on vs real tie)

I have no idea but Im even wondering if wrap-
arounds were that common in '71, except in
urban areas? Most men wore standard rim
sun glasses, shooting glasses, tc. Jumpers
might have preferred wraparounds if they could get them?

Who in the PDX/SEA area sold wrap arounds?
Maybe Im all wet but its a question.

Georger

[snowmman 3]

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People have skipped over this for years. That's
fine but no more.
Georger

Another thing is the weight/height relationship.

180/185 lbs? for 5'11/6'

It wasn't like he was an overweight guy, considering he was 45 years old.

Here's data from 1988 to 1994 for white males, from the NHANES II survey in America, showing distribution of age/height and distribution for age/weight.
From
http://www.halls.md/chart/height-weight.htm

"Men's height after age 20 tends to remain the same until after age 50 years, then a gradual decline in height occurs. The thick red line in the middle of the chart shows the "median" (50th percentile) height of men"

SO: Cooper in his eighties would be shorter now.

on the weight chart:
The red lines show "percentiles". The thick red line in the middle is the 50th percentile, which indicates that 50% of the population of Men have Weight heavier than the line, and 50% are lighter. Similarly, the highest red line, the 95th percentile line, indicates the weight where 95% of the male population is lighter.

I've not digested the charts yet for any information.
Interpret away!

[snowmman 3]

http://www.halls.md/body-mass-index/av.htm

for 6', 180 lbs, age 45 years, male,
the calculator says the body is in "normal range"...at 29th percentile compared to others of same height and age.

29th percentile, though, would mean, on the "light" side?

His height puts him at just 25% of all males of that age?

So he's like the bottom 1/3 of a group that's 25% of the male population?

Hmm...I think maybe he normally had more weight?

At 200 lbs/6' they say "Overweight" but that puts him at 53rd percentile...

Let's see 195 lbs/6'/45 years is 48th percentile.

So let's assume he was more likely around 195 and had lost some weight, so he had the thin/gaunt face shown in the 1971 sketch..i.e. more like 185 at the time of the hijack.

His height still puts him at just ~25% of the male population? (I'm looking at a guess for the group between 5'11 and 6'1 at age 45)

I'm just making some rough swags here...not looking real close.

(edit) added BMI chart. 185 lbs/6' puts Cooper at 25.1 kg/m**2 BMI.

[snowmman 3]

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In Snow's defense he has I am sure been concentrating on a lot of other things, leads etc as well and not purely on Duane for 13 years.

No I remembered everything Jo had said before about the glasses. It was garbage when she said it, and it's garbage now. And those sunglasses she posted aren't a good match in my view.

I am interested in finding a good match for the sunglasses, circa 1971. If anyone finds pics, post away.

I was thinking about the old Oakley razor blades. You know how guys who wanted to appear "hi energy" etc used to wear them. I wonder if the older Cooper picked the wraparounds because of some self image thing...thinking about him being a risk taker also.
It kind of goes against the image of the middle-aged downtrodden guy in a black suit. So the sunglasses seem interesting. (as does the choice of clip-on vs real tie)

I have no idea but Im even wondering if wrap-
arounds were that common in '71, except in
urban areas? Most men wore standard rim
sun glasses, shooting glasses, tc. Jumpers
might have preferred wraparounds if they could get them?

Who in the PDX/SEA area sold wrap arounds?
Maybe Im all wet but its a question.

Georger

I've been looking at movies like Easy Rider from the '60s but haven't seen the exact glasses.
People talk about "beatnik" style starting to wear them then ('68-'71) but I've not found a good period pic yet.

I think it's a good example of a phrase "wraparound" not really capturing all the detail that's in the sketch, with respect to the glasses. The verbal descriptions do make note of "all plastic" which coincides with the drawing. No metal rims. (Peter Fonda had gold metal rims in Easy Rider)

[377 21]

Jo,

How about a Christmas present to the forum? Give Sluggo a green light to publish his scans of your material. Just trust his judgement and don't try to control every aspect. He obviously has your best interests at heart.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

I

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I have noticed a crack in the armor where Jo is admitting the possibility that Duane was not Cooper but knew Cooper and had access to some of his belongings. Some might call that progress. If The Duane as Cooper thing were a true diagnosable psychiatric obsession she would not admit to any other possibilities, right? Georger? Orange?

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Point taken about the delusional aspect. Every so often Jo seems to backtrack a bit (immediately after the DNA test on the tie for example, and on the fact that someone else may be Cooper) but then she always seems to go back to she "knows" Duane was Cooper.

If He was't Cooper - he sure as hell knew who was.

Yes, I believe he was Cooper but I have ALWAYS been open to the fact that he was a thief and he knew who Cooper was.

go on the basis he was Cooper until I have exhausted every avenue possible. I never ever close the door on the fact that he may have stole the items, but that didn't explaine the things he told me and showed me over a 17 yr period of time. So you go with what you know best.

George[b???r - you keep bring up bones and a skull. You aren't talking about the skull the woman kept in her attic for yrs. The family found it after she died and remembered the story she told about finding it. They proved the skull was not Coopers and I forgot what they did learn about it.....????

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

Jo wrote:

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I have to go on the basis he was Cooper until I have exhausted every avenue possible.

Jo,

You could flip that logic and simply assume that Duane was not Cooper until you have solid proof that he was.

That would go a LONG way towards unruffling feathers on this forum.

Regardless, I welcome your participation here and hope you have a joyous holiday.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Jo, I think Georger is referring to the skull inside Cooper's head, not in an attic.

There are other explanations for the trip Duane took you on. Like Sluggo's.

Re sunglasses, if these were trendy or whatever at the time... isn't a good place to look images of pop or rock stars of the era? Doors, Led Zep, Stones, etc etc?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

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“Miss I have a bomb, come sit by me.”

There are some clues in the syntax, but they are of little use unless we can correlate them to a suspect who used similar sentence structure and word choices.

"Miss" polite, a salutation not needed in the note.

"Come" could have said "please" or just "sit by me."

"By" most people would say "sit next to" not "sit by."

Are there any regional clues in "come sit by me?"

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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Before I die, I have to remember to leave a note saying I am not any famous unsolved mystery criminal. Can you imagine having someone spend years investigating your life the way Jo has for Duane? What a waste.

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Depends on how you define waste Orange. Sometimes unfinished urgent personal business gives older people a reason to get up every morning and charge ahead. That has some value.

Guys I started this as a healthy 55 yr old and my life was just fine. I was working and dating and eventually remarried..I had all the purpose to get up every morning I needed. What I didn't need was the Cooper saga.

I have jumped in hard and heavy the last 2 yrs because I have had time on my hands and my health has not been good. So the part about unfinished business is true.
I won't deny that one.

For yrs I wanted to go thru the negatives and see what was there and I have yet to check on a lock box I located a few months ago because it requires a trip to a near-by city. The reciept fell out of something I was going thru - I found no Key so I think it had already been cleaned out before Duane died...Will get that done after the first of the yr.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I'm in a hurry so please forgive grammer and spelling errors.

A friend of the site put me onto something and I thought it would give you guys something to chew on while I'm "in transit" to New Mexico.

Go to this link and skip to page 51. Then tell me what the profile for a 1971 Raleigh smoker was.

HERE

Happy holidays,

Sluggo

EDIT:

Page 51 of the images NOT Page 51 of the OCR/HTML.

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

I read something interesting in Gunther.

Remember how the FBI liked to brag that the search at least discovered that body in the well? Well in Gunther, the story goes that the search team came thru, but then later some artifact collectors busted thru the wood boards in the well, looking for bottles or whatnot, and saw the body.

Thought that was interesting. I was going to research it more, but I don't think there's much detail.

Interesting enough to question whether the FBI or search teams were involved at all in that body find.

Funny huh?

(edit) I had mentioned, that if you ignore all the Clara stuff, that Gunther appeared to have done some amount of research, in terms of reading news articles and talking to Agent H.

[377 21]

Wouldn't be the first time a law enforcement agency took credit for a find that they had little to do with.

Was it ever confirmed that the Cooper 727 landed without the door placard?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 200]

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I

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I have noticed a crack in the armor where Jo is admitting the possibility that Duane was not Cooper but knew Cooper and had access to some of his belongings. Some might call that progress. If The Duane as Cooper thing were a true diagnosable psychiatric obsession she would not admit to any other possibilities, right? Georger? Orange?

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Point taken about the delusional aspect. Every so often Jo seems to backtrack a bit (immediately after the DNA test on the tie for example, and on the fact that someone else may be Cooper) but then she always seems to go back to she "knows" Duane was Cooper.

If He was't Cooper - he sure as hell knew who was.


REPLY: the rumor has always been your Duane was
involved in the 1975 FBI search at Orchards. I havent the faintest idea if thatis true or could even
be true, but that has always been the rumor. That
from that, Duane got interested in Cooper and perhaps began assuming the identity of Cooper
until at length, sick and dying, he didnt know the difference.



Yes, I believe he was Cooper but I have ALWAYS been open to the fact that he was a thief and he knew who Cooper was.


REPLY> You have no hard evidnce of any kind
that proved Duane was Cooper. You never had
it and you dont have it today. Because it does
not exist. And yet you persist with the phantom
idea Duane was Cooper in spite of evidence he
wasn't.


go on the basis he was Cooper until I have exhausted every avenue possible. I never ever close the door on the fact that he may have stole the items, but that didn't explaine the things he told me and showed me over a 17 yr period of time. So you go with what you know best.

REPLY> Outide of your large ego, why would you
care at all! Money?


George[b???r - you keep bring up bones and a skull. You aren't talking about the skull the woman kept in her attic for yrs. The family found it after she died and remembered the story she told about finding it. They proved the skull was not Coopers and I forgot what they did learn about it.....????

REPLY> You are now referring to the old skull kept
by the old woman in Colorado. What in HELL does
that have to do with this or anything? I know more
about that skull than you do or ever will!

We are talking about DUANE'S SKULL ...

CONCLUSION: The only possible connection Duane Weber may have had with the Cooper case is some
interest he formed in the case during Duane's time
ind Washington. Perhaps something related to his
prison time or someone associated with his prison time in the State of Washington, that Duane kept
up with after his release from prison in WA.

There is the persistent rumor Duane was involved
in an FBI ground search for Cooper in 1975 at or near Orchards WA. The details of that if it is true,
are a total mystery to me. I know nothing about
this outside of it being a persistent rumor which
first sprang forth about the time Douglas Pasternak
was doing his research on Duan Weber. But Doug
Pasternak says nothing about this in his article.

Jo is playing games here. She knows very well
what physiological traits are. She has no trouble
discussing forensics in other matters (like the Caylee Anthony case in her home state right now!). Jo simply does not wish to discuss basic forensics
when it comes to her case, the Duane Weber case. Jo isnt dumb. Jo is selective and opportunistic.

Georger

[snowmman 3]

just had a random thought.
I know I'm stuck in Vietnam.

But the idea of getting a drink, and telling the pretty vietnamese girl to come sit down besides you, is pretty much the hostess bar situation in Vietnam in the late '60s.

(and I guess still is in a lot of areas).

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo,

How about a Christmas present to the forum? Give Sluggo a green light to publish his scans of your material. Just trust his judgement and don't try to control every aspect. He obviously has your best interests at heart.

377

I got so involved in answering the posts that I forgot WHY I came on at this time of day.

NO, Sluggo DOES NOT have my permission to post anything I provided him. What I am about to tell you is the main reason WHY.

Now, why I cranked the computer up at this time of day and what I came here to say.

First - Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.

NOW - I know something today I didn't know yesterday - so Georger and Snowman - look-out - the truth is coming - . It didn't take a anthropologist, a hydrologist, a artist,, a skyjumper, a writer, or the FBI to find what I have found.

PROBLEM - I don't know what to do with it (information and/or tangible evidence) - definitely ruling the FBI out because they would flush it down the toilet with the cigarrette butts. Right now I would like to find a good writer and you have not heard me SAY that before.

What I fear are the repercussion with possible lawsuits and that is NOT how I want to spend my time left on this earth...

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 200]

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Jo, I think Georger is referring to the skull inside Cooper's head, not in an attic.

Reply> Jo is just avoiding the issue, playing the dumb blond card. .... until she can drum something
up to try and counter the facts.

But these are facts. No debatable conjecture.

If Jo has Alzheimers or something and really cant
think, is impaired, then of course that is another
reason to question everything she says.

I should have brought this all out the first post I
made hre at DZ. Would have saved everyone a lot
of time. I apologise now I didnt! (Had I known I would have!)

Even this forum has to have some integrity.

Georger

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[Orange1 0]

Hm. With 16.7bn cigarettes being sold (mein gott!!) average profiles might mean nothing. But anyway

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The acceleration of the current trend as shown in the smoker brand switelling studies. For the first time since the Longs launch, the net figures for switching (RALEIGH 84 and RALEIGH 99 combined} show positive numbers. The more successful positioning of RALEIGH as a mild, smooth cigarette in advertising to both accelerate the improvement in product image among franchise smokers, and to retard the erosion in product image among competitive smokers. The more effective positioning of RALEIGH smokers as more up-scale, more urban, more youthful {26-40}, and better edu- cated in all RALEIGH advertising to improve the current negative smoker image.

What is a Class C market, is this somewhere else in the doc? I have cut & paste as is, including errors in the original scan, it is still clear:

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Class "C" Markets - In these markets, local media support is not recommended because of poor brand development, the small size of many of the markets, and cost. These 128 markets account for- 32°,~, of RALEIGH sales, and 30% of BELAIll sales. {4) Major Mackets - In New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles local media :;upport is recommended since fully 19% of all cigarette sales occnr in these three markets, but sales total only 12% for RALEIGH.

Looks like the coupons would have come in shortly before the hijack:

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COUPON PROMOTION The 50th edition of the R.ALEIGtI/BELAIR.gift catalog is scheduled for distribution in July of next year'. The covers will be smoker-image oriented, and will feature extensions of both brands' print advertising. That feature, when coupled with merchandise selection, is designed to mainlain franchise loyalty as well as to appeal to non-franchise smokers to improve the brands' competitive positions.

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Further. while RALEIGH has the most loyal franchise in the industry. greater efforts must be made to improve the brand's appeal among corn petitive smokers. Essential to RALEIGH sales will be the improvement in the brand's current smoker and product image.

Those from a quick skim - it's late here - goodnight :)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

I am not going to debate your extreme ugly and loud post.
I was getting ready to sign off.

Duane was not involved in any search of Cooper - this is a seed planted by Sluggo and I know it is not true (one reason I do not allow Sluggo to post some things regarding Duane and I). He is intitled to his speculation, but it has NO basis.

Duane was employed in Ga. and he was married at that time - I have spoke with his employers over the yrs. If Sluggo has anything to back this up - and he doesn't except for a statement from a woman who wants me out of her hair...he doesn't know what he is dealing with.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

Jo,

The fear you and other individuals have about lawuits related to something you might reveal here is unrealistic. Contingency lawyers take these cases but only when they are against publishing companies that have big liability insurance policies. A plaintiff could search all month long and not find a lawyer who would take a case against an individual like you on a contingency fee basis.

Besides, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove economic damages. How much do you think I could collect if you published your opinion that I was DB Cooper or a criminal? Not enough to be worth the time to file a suit, I assure you.

Don't use lawsuit fears as an excuse. Truth is a defense against defamation cases. Your constant teasing and holding back allegedly probative evidence just debits your credibility account here. You are already below the minimum balance requirements in some eyes.

Sluggo stuck his neck out for you and is one of the few here who think Duane might have any link to Cooper, even if only as a searcher. I think you should let him post what he has. Daylight is the enemy of falsehoods and the friend of truth. Let the sunshine in Jo.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.