DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

I do wish Cook would come on here
I would like to know something from him. It appears Cook has been on Cooper's trail for a long time, examining and discarding various suspects along the way (including Duane). I would love to know what it is about Gossett's story that seemed to have finally convinced him - when common cause here & Ckret (O Ckret where art thou?) have also dismissed him.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

I didn't start anything about Ochards (just from looking at an old black and white topographic map a man sent me in the mail) and I have claimed that was the area (I know that area is part of it - the map I was using was not real good) that I thought this was the area Duane took me to -not that he was part of any search team.

I have consistently been asked to produce proof. You produce the complete document where I have agreed that Duane was in that search. It was suggested to me but didn't make sense then and doesn't make sense to me now. Don't use sentence fragments - use the whole document.

There is one man out there I fed things to - just to find out if he was real...if it involved this person - the discussiom could have happened - want to read some the crap I put out there to test people in regards to what they were claiming...I can give you some doozies. Like the one legged man and that is said tongue in cheek.

I was also led down a lot of false road - but I would back off and realize what I was being told was not possible - such as many things this forum has led me too - BUT I have always gone back to the basic.

Do you want to know how many loose cannons I have faced - MORE than I care to remember...but I kept ALL of the communications other than phone calls and some of those are recorded. 15 ft of stuff...that doesn't count this thread or the other thread...how much would that add?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Orange1 asked again

Quote

(O Ckret where art thou?)

okay, I'll give the long version. Don't you remember the problem with the redacting of the fax number on the fax to Sluggo. The CID men are trying to track down who didn't censor the mail correctly. Major Major was signing "Washington Irving". We all know how important that name is to our literature analysis. Of course, Major Major got the idea to sign "Washington Irving" from Yossarian.

"Promoted prematurely to squadron commander, Major Major Major has no idea what he is expected to do. Bored and depressed, he begins signing "Washington Irving" on official documents after two strange C.I.D. men question him regarding the forging incidents at the hospital. Major Major Major becomes reclusive and instructs his assistant, Sergeant Towser, to admit visitors only when Major Major is out of his office. Major Major no longer takes meals in the mess hall and he jumps out the window of his tent to avoid his office workers and visitors.

"With a little ingenuity and vision, he had made it all but impossible for anyone in the squadron to talk to him, which was just fine with everyone, he noticed, since no one wanted to talk to him anyway." Chapter 9, pg. 111

Only Yossarian manages to tackle and speak to the antisocial major. Major Major thinks Yossarian is a freak because he carries on about a dead man in his tent and because he went naked to receive an award for heroism from General Dreedle. Yossarian asks Major Major to take him off combat duty. Major Major lamely replies that there is nothing he can do."

Eventually Major Major disappears from the book, although it is uncertain if this is because he hides or if he was "disappeared" like Dunbar. He may have just not had any part whatsoever in events, due to his plan to completely avoid administrative duties

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Which search area are you talking about?
Merwin Lake the original search area 71-72 or Orchards a later search in 1975? Your talks with H did not happen until the 90's?

Frankly my dear I don't remember which was referred to.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

How would Duane know who Cooper was
if he wasnt Cooper himself?
Georger

Do you realize you had better stop while you are ahead. You are really confused - now who is mentally ill or dilusional?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Why didnt you nip it in the bud when it became public knowledge?

Georger.

====================
Georger one cannot nip something in the bud if they don't know it is in bloom. I have NO control over what someone else states or derives from a conversation. What the hell do you care anyway - unless you are vested in a book you are writing.......

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Eventually Major Major disappears from the book, although it is uncertain if this is because he hides or if he was "disappeared" like Dunbar.

Well Snow, do you have any opinion on which it is?

fwiw I never finished that book when i first started reading it years ago..maybe i should try again,

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

NEW AVATAR? CAN WE CALL THIS ONE BEFORE THE TRANSPLANT?

Larger one attached.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Why didnt you nip it in the bud when it became public knowledge?

Georger.

====================
Georger one cannot nip something in the bud if they don't know it is in bloom. I have NO control over what someone else states or derives from a conversation. What the hell do you care anyway - unless you are vested in a book you are writing.......

Reply> In other words, mind my own business?
Your and Duane's story belongs to you alone?
You have harmed no one in your "pursuit of the truth"?

Georger

[georger 197]

Quote

I didn't start anything about Ochards (just from looking at an old black and white topographic map a man sent me in the mail) and I have claimed that was the area (I know that area is part of it - the map I was using was not real good) that I thought this was the area Duane took me to -not that he was part of any search team.

I have consistently been asked to produce proof. You produce the complete document where I have agreed that Duane was in that search. It was suggested to me but didn't make sense then and doesn't make sense to me now. Don't use sentence fragments - use the whole document.

There is one man out there I fed things to - just to find out if he was real...if it involved this person - the discussiom could have happened - want to read some the crap I put out there to test people in regards to what they were claiming...I can give you some doozies. Like the one legged man and that is said tongue in cheek.

I was also led down a lot of false road - but I would back off and realize what I was being told was not possible - such as many things this forum has led me too - BUT I have always gone back to the basic.

Do you want to know how many loose cannons I have faced - MORE than I care to remember...but I kept ALL of the communications other than phone calls and some of those are recorded. 15 ft of stuff...that doesn't count this thread or the other thread...how much would that add?

Reply> Share with us how the Cooper affair
became so sleazy.

Georger

[nigel99 151]

Quote

Jo,

The fear you and other individuals have about lawuits related to something you might reveal here is unrealistic. Contingency lawyers take these cases but only when they are against publishing companies that have big liability insurance policies. A plaintiff could search all month long and not find a lawyer who would take a case against an individual like you on a contingency fee basis.

Besides, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff to prove economic damages. How much do you think I could collect if you published your opinion that I was DB Cooper or a criminal? Not enough to be worth the time to file a suit, I assure you.

Don't use lawsuit fears as an excuse. Truth is a defense against defamation cases. Your constant teasing and holding back allegedly probative evidence just debits your credibility account here. You are already below the minimum balance requirements in some eyes.

Sluggo stuck his neck out for you and is one of the few here who think Duane might have any link to Cooper, even if only as a searcher. I think you should let him post what he has. Daylight is the enemy of falsehoods and the friend of truth. Let the sunshine in Jo.

377

For Gods sake Jo - if you have any intention of telling the truth please take 377's advice. Your continual hinting that you have something that validates the case - but refusing to disclose it is HIGHLY irritating. His post was polite and to the point and you have completely ignored it

You even attack Sluggo who is probably the only other person left on the forum with any sympathy/time for your story.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Orange1 0]

I don't think this link was posted by Snow before. It refers to a B17 that people spoke about as being operated by Air America though it didn't officially own one at that stage (see 1st para of doc from link). The plane is obviously quite different from a 727 but I mention it because B-17s didn't only drop bombs in WW2, they dropped parachutists in Asia in the 50s too. Also, the CIA front company mentioned (below) may well have continued work with 727s in the China (ex-Vietnam etc) arena later than the 50s as well.

Anyway, the following may be of interest.

Quote

This B-17 was one of the aircraft formerly operated by Western Enterprises Inc. of Taiwan. Western Enterprises had been founded by the CIA in 1951 to funnel covert American assistance to the Republic of China. Their activities included airborne intelligence flights over mainland China as well as dropping agents, using aircraft and crews of Civil Air Transport. In 1952, the CIA also trained 5 Taiwanese pilots and 2 mechanics in Japan in low-level flights and drop techniques, and in 1953, this new “Special Mission Team” or “Special Operations Unit” was supplied with 2 B-17s on loan from Western Enterprises – with more to follow.

Quote

the B-17 was flown to Kadena, Okinawa, where training was continued with the Tibetan agents that had to be parachuted into their country. Two missions into Tibet are known to have been flown by the B-17: the first one in early October 57, and the second one in early November 57,

I emphasise how much earlier than Cooper and even Vietnam the above references show the stuff was being done. Maybe Cooper had been around one of these? This is just an example of operational parachutists in the period between WW2 and Vietnam. (I asked a question a long time ago and didn't get confirmation from anyone about operations in the 1950s...well here it is).

The more I search, the more I realise how much bigger the potential pool of Cooper candidates might be... I mean, I'm younger and live the other side of the world, but I had no idea the CIA was involved in dropping agents in Tibet & China in the 50s, for example.

The more I search, another thing that comes to light is how ridiculous notions of longstanding conspiracies and cover-ups are. There is so much stuff out there on the net, including stuff that was classified/secret/whatever, there is just too much to believe that any conspiracy beyond a secret held by one or two people would not make it out there.

http://www.utdallas.edu/library/collections/speccoll/Leeker/b17.pdf

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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"According to Robert Serling's book about the Boeing Company, three Boeing 727s were acquired by Air America, which was operated by the CIA. Indeed, the head of Air America inquired about how much cargo could be dropped down the rear stairs before Air America purchased its 727s.

Anonymous (sadly) poster commenting on an article on 727s here (last comment on page): http://www.super70s.com/super70s/Tech/Aviation/Aircraft/727.asp

Has anyone read Serling's book? http://www.amazon.com/dp/031205890X?tag=allinterviewscom&camp=15041&creative=373501&link_code=as3

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Funny how Jo tries to distinguish between Good Lies and Bad Lies. The Good ones are the ones she tells to "test" people or ferret out information.

The Bad ones are the ones everyone else is evidently telling.

I don't really care about Jo's thing though, and really can't understand why you guys are all focused on it. Like no one was interested at all in my nice chart of PCA/USPA membership? I thought that was a great find.

I'm more interested in this latest twist. Ckret gets the news media revved up about a "civilian investigators" angle. I say to myself "who are these civilians and how do they operate?". Tom has provided some detail. There are a number of people we've not heard from that Tom evidently contacts.
Ckret disappears from this thread. Is he off the case? Did the "civilian investigators" get fired? Will a new case officer pick up the team? Is it just a holiday break?

I have this vision of a team being abandoned in China, with no C-47 Skyhook being sent to extract them, left to their own wits. As the team opens their survival kits, they find a revolver, but no ammunition!

[snowmman 3]

Would you jump with a German Shepherd hanging around your crotch? (attached)

from "South-East Asian Special Forces"
http://books.google.com/books?id=3Ydn55I3PH0C&pg=PA50

I had been reading elsewhere about CIA trained black op drops of vietnamese jumpers into Laos. Evidently they wore face screens/canvas suits to protect against trees. Night jumps. Small numbers.

Check out the dog pic though. I don't see a muzzle?
"There I was, at 2500 ft with a german shepherd biting me hard and .."

[Orange1 0]

Quote

This info HAD to be circulating in Viet Nam. Anytime jumpers jump something new, word gets out. There is even a guy on dropzone.com who jumped a Russian TU 95 Bear!

Wonder who the 727 jumpers were? The Air America pilot I spoke with who knew zero about 727 jumps had himself hauled indigenous paratroopers over Cambodia for low level S/L jumps. Were these Thai paratroopers perhaps? US military?

The Air America system looks like it worked really well. The NWA 727 jump would have been a lot less scary if you had the information in the film. It would tell you to ask for about 20 degrees of flaps and to deploy immediately. You could also freefall but why risk it if you knew you could safely deploy right out the door? I wonder what the airspeed of the Air America 727 was when dropping S/L jumpers?

Again I hope I am not repeating anything Snow said - I did relook at his posts and don't think this is a repeat - some more details.
From this site: http://actionnooz.com/videos/b727/page4.html

With the video of the test drops, some info - below. Again, bold is my emphasis. (I should note that due to bandwidth issues I have not watched the video, so all the below was news to me.)

***
This snippet is from the CIA/Air America film "Flying Men, Flying Machines" produced circa '70/'71. The air drop tests were likely done at the CIA/Air America facilities at the Takhli Royal Thai Air Force Base in Thailand.The palletized air drops used a modified 727 interior. The ventral stairs are apparently removed and replaced with a ramp the two jumpers slide down. The jumpers use static lines. It is unclear what flight configuration is used, so the exit speed is undetermined. The film makes a point of saying the plane can be pressurized, and unpressurized for the drop. This means the aft door would work normally, and be openable in flight after depressurization.Full video (87 minutes) in a variety of formats, available for free download at http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/AirAmerica/FMFM/index.htm
According to available research, the system, while tested, was never used in an actual mission.Unless you count Flight 305.


So we have:
- a probable location of the test drops (helps narrow down who might have known about them?)
- information that the plane did not need to be unpressurized the whole way. Did Cooper not know this? Or did he figure trying to convince the pilots that they could do this would be too difficult?
- we don't know from the video what the config or speed was, but Cooper knew what he wanted. (apparently - ref the debate about whether he actually asked for 15 deg flaps or the pilots just concluded that from what he asked them)
- information that the stairs themselves were actually not there for the tests (those of you who have watched the video will have figured this out I presume). IF Cooper knew about these tests, how would he have known the stairs could be lowered in flight? Would he have assumed that because the ramp could? Or couldn't he be sure and that is why he wanted them down on take-off. Or... [trumpets sound] maybe he battled to get the stairs down because he had worked with a ramp not stairs??
- apparent information that following the test drops, Cooper was the only time the 727's drop ability was put to practical use.

The tests were done 70-71... great timing?

Did the Feds ever look for paratroopers/airborne etc who happened to be home inbetween tours of duty in Asia at the time the hijacking took place? {Where, o where is Major Major Ckret??}
Edit: if someone was career stationed in Asia this would also be a reason no-one would miss him at home?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Funny how Jo tries to distinguish between Good Lies and Bad Lies. The Good ones are the ones she tells to "test" people or ferret out information.

The Bad ones are the ones everyone else is evidently telling.

I don't really care about Jo's thing though, and really can't understand why you guys are all focused on it. Like no one was interested at all in my nice chart of PCA/USPA membership? I thought that was a great find.

I'm more interested in this latest twist. Ckret gets the news media revved up about a "civilian investigators" angle. I say to myself "who are these civilians and how do they operate?". Tom has provided some detail. There are a number of people we've not heard from that Tom evidently contacts.
Ckret disappears from this thread. Is he off the case? Did the "civilian investigators" get fired? Will a new case officer pick up the team? Is it just a holiday break?

I have this vision of a team being abandoned in China, with no C-47 Skyhook being sent to extract them, left to their own wits. As the team opens their survival kits, they find a revolver, but no ammunition!

I liked your list. Being me I am probably focused on the wrong aspects of it though (why membership rises sharply and then levels off/drops).

Is the team abandoned in China wih or without the desk clerk, though?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Would you jump with a German Shepherd hanging around your crotch? (attached)

from "South-East Asian Special Forces"
http://books.google.com/books?id=3Ydn55I3PH0C&pg=PA50

I had been reading elsewhere about CIA trained black op drops of vietnamese jumpers into Laos. Evidently they wore face screens/canvas suits to protect against trees. Night jumps. Small numbers.

Check out the dog pic though. I don't see a muzzle?
"There I was, at 2500 ft with a german shepherd biting me hard and .."

Were those the so-called "black bats"? I saw a reference to them and was gonna chase it up...

Jumping with dogs happens more than you might think. The dogs apparently like it. Apparently.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

just found another article with some nice pics of the 500p.
I figured 377 will like seeing the FLIR stuff.

pics from
http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/the_quiet_one.html#

I had also talked about how SU-50's were being introduced into Vietnam...there was a comment to this article:

"Other gadgetry included SU-50 night-vision goggles (their first use in Laos), which worked only when the moon was a quarter to a half full. ..."

Interesting to see how much technology was being dumped into Southeast Asia in the '60s.

The caption for the 3rd photo is
"At a secret base in Laos, Air America's Thomas "Shep" Johnson trained local commandos to set a wiretap." Look at the Laos (Thais? Vietnamese?)..they obviously had balls! young guys.

[377 21]

My first instructor, Perry Stevens, made a tandem rig for himself and his dachshund back in 68. That dog LOVED to jump and would get all excited when he would pick up the special rig.

Snow, don't sulk. I liked your USPA/PCA data. I think it helps define the possible size of the Cooper universe. I think it is highly unlikely that the NWA 727 was Cooper's first jump. If you filter for local knowledge, 727 jumpability knowledge, age and appearance I think you are down to a couple of hundred jumpers in the pool, maybe fewer.

What's up with Jo's new avatar? Is this the uniformed guy that Duane insisted she covertly photograph? Looks a lot like Lee Harvey Oswald doesn't he? Was the Jack Ruby hit faked?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Share with us how the Cooper affair
became so sleazy.
In other words, mind my own business?
Your and Duane's story belongs to you alone?
You have harmed no one in your "pursuit of the truth"?

The above is from Georger - Would anyone care to tell me what the H--- he is talking about. I have only tried to tell the truth - I have not hurt anyone that I am
aware of. I have talked and discovered - but my story is ALWAYS the same and wiil ALWAYS be the dame until someone proves it differently. I theorize just like the rest of you - you have avatars and false ID's to hide behind - I am only myself.

I try to be truthful - and if someone misinterperts something I say - I try to correct if without creating an argument. I try to be polite and direct.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Is the team abandoned in China with or without the desk clerk, though?

No, the Night Clerk is the "operator" in the movie "The Matrix". The Night Clerk is responsible for getting everyone in and out of the matrix.

The ship the Night Clerk is on is called "The Nebachudnezzer"

Remember that Tyre, which the Phoenicians called Al-Sur, is a symbol of resistance to conquest and oppression.

Nebachudnezzer besieged the city for thirteen years and Alexander the Great, unable to defeat it after seven months of constant battle, finally built a great dike over which his armies could pass in order to enter the city.

But that's not the point. The point is that the Matrix, itself, is becoming self-aware, a new order of emergent intelligence far superior to that of its creators.

So that should all make sense now, right?

[377 21]

That explains our failure to ID Cooper. We have been looking in the wrong dimension.

Damn, shoulda known that. Not the first time. That's where all our missing socks go.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Quote

I figured 377 will like seeing the FLIR stuff.

Indeed I do Snow. There were all kinds of prototype highly advanced things (i.e. trail surveillance and night vision) being field tested in Nam. Old timers where I worked had some amazing tales, including presence of civilian tech reps on dangerous military missions. Some of the stuff tested was very far ahead of the gear that was in the standard military inventory, one off prototype items. Moisture and jungle fungus were big enemies of electronics. You couldn't be assured something that worked in CA would stay operational in Nam.

Seemed like nothing stayed secret over there for very long. We had one classified high performance helicopter thermal imaging system that was tested in Nam. In a few weeks everyone stateside in that technical field knew about it regardless of who they worked for.

If Cooper was a jumper and was in Nam during or after those Air America 727 jumps, I'll bet he knew about them, even if he was working as a cook.

Orange is right about massive conspiracy theories. Secrets just cannot stay secret when more than a couple of people are involved. Word gets out.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Quote

Funny how Jo tries to distinguish between Good Lies and Bad Lies. The Good ones are the ones she tells to "test" people or ferret out information.

The Bad ones are the ones everyone else is evidently telling.

I don't really care about Jo's thing though, and really can't understand why you guys are all focused on it. Like no one was interested at all in my nice chart of PCA/USPA membership? I thought that was a great find.

I'm more interested in this latest twist. Ckret gets the news media revved up about a "civilian investigators" angle. I say to myself "who are these civilians and how do they operate?". Tom has provided some detail. There are a number of people we've not heard from that Tom evidently contacts.
Ckret disappears from this thread. Is he off the case? Did the "civilian investigators" get fired? Will a new case officer pick up the team? Is it just a holiday break?

I have this vision of a team being abandoned in China, with no C-47 Skyhook being sent to extract them, left to their own wits. As the team opens their survival kits, they find a revolver, but no ammunition!

all is well so far as I know. Im caught in snow
storm trying to get to Grandma's house. Have the
Big Bad Wolf tied up in the trunk. Kids watching
the Wizard of Oz in the back seat. Your chart is Great! I want to thank Jo for standing in for me the
last several weeks while Ive been away - hear she's
had some rousing dicussions with herself. That's
good! Must run... Merry Christmas and Happy
Chanukah to all, and a Blessed New Year.

Georger.