DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, Robert99 said:

At least Georger is beginning to understand one point.  If the money or money bag enters the Columbia east of the point where the river it will sink (per TK's experiment using real money) to the bottom of the river and stay there.

Also, when the river makes the turn to the north, the money bag moving along the bottom of the river is going to end up at the bottom of the 40-deep shipping channel and it will stay there.

There is no natural process that will move the money uphill from the bottom of the shipping channel to several feet above the shoreline at Tena Bar.

Hopefully, Georger will continue to try to understand the General Energy Equation.

 

Wrong. 

[olemisscub 466]

Latest Vault is mostly junk but does have some of the first pre-302 notes that we've seen so far. Pretty cool to see those. 

Also, my boy Orville Andrew Lyons made his first appearance. They had redacted his name in the previous Vault releases. He was the last person to have his hair compared to Cooper's and his investigation was the last time the hair slide shows up in the files. I've got about 4 paragraphs on him in my book. He's pretty intriguing. The FBI seemed to have a real hard-on for him.

I was actually surprised I was able to figure out who he was considering he was redacted. I was able to figure out the length of his first, middle, and last names. It said he was from Delaware and was wounded in the Korean War with the Marines. So I just went on newspapers dot com and started typing in "korea wounded marine" in Delaware papers and found a guy whose names matched. Looked him up on Ancestry and it showed that he had lived in Mississippi in the early 80's, so I knew I had the right guy. I contacted Zaid who supplies the FBI with a running list of names of deceased persons who may appear in the file, so I told him to include Lyons since the redactors apparently thought he was alive in the earlier vaults (since his name was redacted). So, it's good to see they got the memo that the guy is dead.  

Frustratingly though, in all of his files in the old vault releases they never let his subject file number slip, so I wasn't able to FOIA his subject file. If you just FOIA someone's file by their name they won't do it, but if you ask for a subject file number, they'll process it. There doesn't appear to be a subject file number with his info in the latest vault either. Ugh. 

[Chaucer 103]

25 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

At least Georger is beginning to understand one point.  If the money or money bag enters the Columbia east of the point where the river it will sink (per TK's experiment using real money) to the bottom of the river and stay there.

Also, when the river makes the turn to the north, the money bag moving along the bottom of the river is going to end up at the bottom of the 40-deep shipping channel and it will stay there.

There is no natural process that will move the money uphill from the bottom of the shipping channel to several feet above the shoreline at Tena Bar.

Hopefully, Georger will continue to try to understand the General Energy Equation.

 

Wrong. Multiple hydrologists have utterly refuted this notion. 

[Chaucer 103]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Sure, unused rubber bands in a drawer can last..  try using one, they break much easier.

PNW in winter is very wet...  wet also means bacteria, the paper bands would be gone quickly, weeks or a month.

But, rubber bands lose their integrity when stretched over time, maybe they don't break within 5 months but they would be weakened..

I just think that a fresh bundle would have a far better chance of making that water journey to TBAR...

I can't imagine a rubber banded money bundle maintaining enough of its integrity for 5+ months in a swamp to make a tumbling journey along the River bottom to TBAR virtually intact. Maybe, it is possible under the right circumstances, but it seems unlikely.

I don't think it tumbled along the bottom. My theory calls for a ride on river debris (branch, log, bush) to Tena Bar. This would lessen any trauma to the bag. 

But, as we have all said, there's no way to prove any of this. 

[olemisscub 466]

Orville didn't age so well...

 

[FLYJACK 654]

3 hours ago, Chaucer said:

I don't think it tumbled along the bottom. My theory calls for a ride on river debris (branch, log, bush) to Tena Bar. This would lessen any trauma to the bag. 

But, as we have all said, there's no way to prove any of this. 

While these theories are all speculation and I have a few, this one in particular is unique because it has the ability to track back to individual persons involved... 

[Robert99 37]

5 hours ago, Chaucer said:

I don't think it tumbled along the bottom. My theory calls for a ride on river debris (branch, log, bush) to Tena Bar. This would lessen any trauma to the bag. 

But, as we have all said, there's no way to prove any of this. 

Chaucer, if the money got a ride on a log, it would still end up on the west side of the river (the Oregon side) when it passed the Tena Bar area.

When I was about 10 years old, I did a lot of swimming in a tributary of the Columbia River (about three miles from the Columbia itself) so I do have some personal experience with river flows from a very early age.

And I stand by what I have written about the Tena Bar money find. 

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

While these theories are all speculation and I have a few, this one in particular is unique because it has the ability to track back to individual persons involved... 

Speaking of ducking the issue!

[georger 197]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Still flogging the dredge theory,,, it isn't 2011...

FBI file 88 is up.....  some will find it others maybe not

Nope. 'Petting' the dredge theory. For me its a process of elimination that best fits ALL of the known facts including the condition of the money seen in photos.. Ive said this before many times. 

There is no way in hell that three bundles of cash fit with rubber bands ROLLED along the bottom to roll up on Tena Bar. A better theory would be that the cash was in the pocket of a drunk that rolled along the bottom then washed up on TBar, the drunk melted, leaving the cash on the beach! Slim King probably knows the name of the drunk ?

Coach Bobby Knight died today in case people dont know.  

[FLYJACK 654]

24 minutes ago, georger said:

Nope. 'Petting' the dredge theory. For me its a process of elimination that best fits ALL of the known facts including the condition of the money seen in photos.. Ive said this before many times. 

There is no way in hell that three bundles of cash fit with rubber bands ROLLED along the bottom to roll up on Tena Bar. A better theory would be that the cash was in the pocket of a drunk that rolled along the bottom then washed up on TBar, the drunk melted, leaving the cash on the beach! Slim King probably knows the name of the drunk ?

Coach Bobby Knight died today in case people dont know.  

The dredge theory is a disaster..... no way it goes through a suction dredge intact. The bundle and packets would have blown apart. Plus, you have the diatom issue.

If you actually believe the money going through a suction dredge is more likely than being washed there from the River then good luck to you...

Edited November 2, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

38 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Speaking of ducking the issue!

Ducking what?  Sometimes you just make no sense.

[georger 197]

16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The dredge theory is a disaster..... no way it goes through a suction dredge intact. The bundle and packets would have blown apart. Plus, you have the diatom issue.

If you actually believe the money going through a suction dredge is more likely than being washed there from the River then good luck to you...

There was testimony that these dredges pass large objects and a bag full of money would not qualify as a large ridged object but a flexible object consisting of smaller flexible objects some of which might survive to be pumped on to the beach then moved further during spreading and still further through flow migration (as happens to all objects on beaches). 

It doesnt matter but most of the people polled who had anything to do with the 1980 excavation believed the dredge theory was the correct (most likely) explanation. That includes salvage people polled. So I am in good company!

Nothing new - I have said this for years............. I wish John Powelson was still alive to register his thoughts and testify to his interviews of different people...........

Edited November 2, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

56 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Where did you swim ... ? I lived there through this entire event. I was in the Portland music scene and knew the coke dealers of that time. The money was planted by a coke dealer claiming to be DB Cooper himself. He got the bills from the get away drivers payola.

So you simultaneously support the Reca and Rackstraw grifts. You should add a pinch of Barb Dayton to that recipe. Thrown in a dash of Uncle LD too. 

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, Slim King said:

Where did you swim ... ? I lived there through this entire event. I was in the Portland music scene and knew the coke dealers of that time. The money was planted by a coke dealer claiming to be DB Cooper himself. He got the bills from the get away drivers payola.

The Wenatchee area.

[Robert99 37]

9 hours ago, Robert99 said:

At least Georger is beginning to understand one point.  If the money or money bag enters the Columbia east of the point where the river it will sink (per TK's experiment using real money) to the bottom of the river and stay there.

Also, when the river makes the turn to the north, the money bag moving along the bottom of the river is going to end up at the bottom of the 40-deep shipping channel and it will stay there.

There is no natural process that will move the money uphill from the bottom of the shipping channel to several feet above the shoreline at Tena Bar.

Hopefully, Georger will continue to try to understand the General Energy Equation.

 

Georger, I didn't say that I thought the money arrived in the Tena Bar area by coming down the river for several miles.

Actually, as you well know, I think Cooper was a no-pull and impacted on solid ground near Tena Bar.  The money bag and Cooper then moved down to where the money was found during the next flooding.  Cooper and the rest of the money then continued on downstream.

[FLYJACK 654]

7 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The Wenatchee area.

So, swimming in a River about 160 miles away from TBAR as a 10 year old makes you an expert on River flow...

TBAR was said to be a dump by locals, the layer the money was in was full of stuff..

When the River turns North the flow pushes debris across toward TBAR.. that is how River flow works.

The River is the most likely source for the money.. How and when it got in the River is the tricky part. 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

9 hours ago, Slim King said:

Where did you swim ... ? I lived there through this entire event. I was in the Portland music scene and knew the coke dealers of that time. The money was planted by a coke dealer claiming to be DB Cooper himself. He got the bills from the get away drivers payola.

We all know how reliable coke dealers are...

[FLYJACK 654]

Anybody have a 1971-1980 depth chart for the Columbia.

Columbia R depth off TBAR...

Granted this is not 1971...  the anchorage channel is on the E side and there is no meaningful slope from W to E (TBAR).. 

[JAGdb 71]

Without any new information, Tena Bar is just a tough nut to crack.

Hopefully, Tom Kay or others may have some new information to share at Coopercon regarding new testing ? 

I have always been curious under what conditions does a packet of money, in this case a packet of 100 bills,  harden/stick/congeal ? Is it something that can happen quickly under the right conditions ?  Or does it require time ?  Does it require one wet/dry cycle or multiple ? I would think the money not being disturbed from the tightly held together packet form is a requirement.  We know that if the packet is loose in the water on it's own, it will fan out.  If it remains loose in the water for an extended period of time, then it might not settle back into the proper packet form to stick together ? Could the money bag have provided enough protection to aid the process ?

Was the money hardened/congealed prior to arrival at Tena Bar or afterwards as it sat beneath the sand enduring rain, sun....wet/dry cycles ?

To me, some of this could play a role in what options that the money could have arrived at Tena Bar, i.e. dredge, flooding, tumbling along bottom etc

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

So, swimming in a River about 160 miles away from TBAR as a 10 year old makes you an expert on River flow...

TBAR was said to be a dump by locals, the layer the money was in was full of stuff..

When the River turns North the flow pushes debris across toward TBAR.. that is how River flow works.

The River is the most likely source for the money.. How and when it got in the River is the tricky part. 

 

I don't consider myself to be an "expert" on anything and in the circles I travel in the term is usually used as a pejorative.

Having been to Tena Bar several times over the years, I know for a fact that it is not a dump and probably never was.  It is frequented on a daily basis by fishermen and others, and they don't litter.  

Contrary to your claim, when the river flow from the east turns to the north the debris is pushed to the Oregon side of the river.  That is one reason the shipping channel is on the Oregon side since the river was naturally deeper there due to the river flow scouring it out.

[FLYJACK 654]

20 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I don't consider myself to be an "expert" on anything and in the circles I travel in the term is usually used as a pejorative.

Having been to Tena Bar several times over the years, I know for a fact that it is not a dump and probably never was.  It is frequented on a daily basis by fishermen and others, and they don't litter.  

Contrary to your claim, when the river flow from the east turns to the north the debris is pushed to the Oregon side of the river.  That is one reason the shipping channel is on the Oregon side since the river was naturally deeper there due to the river flow scouring it out.

This is just not true.

[Chaucer 103]

14 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, if the money got a ride on a log, it would still end up on the west side of the river (the Oregon side) when it passed the Tena Bar area.

When I was about 10 years old, I did a lot of swimming in a tributary of the Columbia River (about three miles from the Columbia itself) so I do have some personal experience with river flows from a very early age.

And I stand by what I have written about the Tena Bar money find. 

This is simply categorically untrue. I've spoken with hydrologists who work on the Columbia about this, and you are simply wrong. 

100% wrong. 

From an article dated February 13th, 1980

 

From my interview with a hydrologist and GIS specialist who lives and works on the Lower Columbia:

Could marine debris that begins in the Columbia River between the I-5 and I-205 bridge arrive at Tena Bar? 

"Yeah, I think it probably could. It would be reasonable to assume that something from that location could deposit at Tena Bar. In fact, I’m fairly certain that it could. If it originated on the Washington side of the river then it would likely remain along that same shore."

Would debris that originates from this location end up on the western shore near Sauvie Island or some other location near there?

"I don’t think there’s a high certainty of that. Again, it’s going to depend on the particular piece of debris. I would say no. Any debris that is deposited near that shore would remain along that shore. There would be no guarantee that it would end up on the western side of the turn."

 

[georger 197]

All nonsense/bickering.

Does the money itself show signs of the process that brought it to Tena Bar ?  It might! 

Look!

Apparently the whole former discussion about dredges and dredging on the Columbia etc has been lost or forgotten. You might want to revisit those posts, especially posts by Snowmman. Try SEARCH for dredging.

9 out of 10 people who considered this problem back in the day favored dredging as the most likely explanation.  I wonder why ? 

PS: TK has evidently been working on this issue and will have more to say later.... ?

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 37]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

This is just not true.

Why don't you visit Tena Bar and take a look?  That way, you can speak from personal experience.  Also, see my reply to Chaucer just above.

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, Chaucer said:

This is simply categorically untrue. I've spoken with hydrologists who work on the Columbia about this, and you are simply wrong. 

100% wrong. 

From an article dated February 13th, 1980

 

From my interview with a hydrologist and GIS specialist who lives and works on the Lower Columbia:

Could marine debris that begins in the Columbia River between the I-5 and I-205 bridge arrive at Tena Bar? 

"Yeah, I think it probably could. It would be reasonable to assume that something from that location could deposit at Tena Bar. In fact, I’m fairly certain that it could. If it originated on the Washington side of the river then it would likely remain along that same shore."

Would debris that originates from this location end up on the western shore near Sauvie Island or some other location near there?

"I don’t think there’s a high certainty of that. Again, it’s going to depend on the particular piece of debris. I would say no. Any debris that is deposited near that shore would remain along that shore. There would be no guarantee that it would end up on the western side of the turn."

 

Chaucer, why don't you attend the CooperCon this year, wherever it is being held, and then pay a visit to Tena Bar and do some personal research?

One of the things you should pay attention to is the flow of river water between Caterpillar Island and the eastern shore of the Columbia River.  The water that passes between those two boundaries also passes by a marina and then re-enters the Columbia at the southern end (the upstream end) of Tena Bar.

The re-entering water flow forms what I will call a "boundary layer" between the river shoreline and the main channel flow.  These flows are dissimilar so how do you explain how the debris from the main channel flow get across that boundary layer and up on the beach at Tena Bar.

I eagerly look forward to your explanation which I assume will be quite convoluted. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Robert99