DB Cooper

[Chaucer 103]

6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Seattle teletype edits aka redactions were NOT PERTAINING to NORJAK.

 

Subject of Transcription

Air-Ground communications "pertaining to" the incident to Northwest Airlines Flight 305

 

 

R99 is perfectly aware of what the teletype redactions entailed because I posted the UNREDACTED teletypes on the Forum last year after visiting Ralph Himmelsbach's grandson's home. In fact, I held the original teletype printout in my hand. 

Regarding the "redactions" of the Seattle ATC transcriptions, in over a decade, R99 has provided no evidence of redactions except his own personal opinions. His entire "western flight path" theory has its origin in nothing more than his personal opinions, and in over a decade all evidence for this theory amounts to nothing more than his personal opinions. 

If R99 has anything beyond his opinions and personal feelings regarding the "western flight path" or the "redactions", I'd be thrilled to hear it. 

 

[olemisscub 466]

Here’s the deal. None of us knew anything about the FBI Flight Path before getting into Cooper. So it’s not like we are married to it. Flight Path makes no difference to any of us, so if compelling and convincing evidence was produced in favor of a different flight path, none of us would have any reason to stubbornly stick with the FBI flight path.

Yet so far only two researchers believe in WFP. Why is that? Because everyone else requires evidence and there is NONE for the WFP. 
 

Stop trying to poke holes in the FBI flight path and instead produce some evidence in favor of WFP.

[Robert99 37]

17 hours ago, olemisscub said:

What are expecting to find in these transcripts? 

Enough information to determine the actual flight path of the airliner in the Seattle/Portland area.  There are several factors related to the flight path, and which have not been discussed here, that knowing the actual flight path could clarify.

[Robert99 37]

13 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Seattle teletype edits aka redactions were NOT PERTAINING to NORJAK.

 

Subject of Transcription

Air-Ground communications "pertaining to" the incident to Northwest Airlines Flight 305

 

 

Actually, the Harrison version of the ARINC teletype transcripts does contain some information that is not related to Flight 305.

The Seattle ATC radio transcripts were prepared under the supervision of Gerald Osterman who made the certification referred to above by FlyJack.  It is those original transcripts that Osterman certified that I am trying to get a copy of, and they do exist in the FAA and FBI files.

[Robert99 37]

12 hours ago, Chaucer said:

R99 is perfectly aware of what the teletype redactions entailed because I posted the UNREDACTED teletypes on the Forum last year after visiting Ralph Himmelsbach's grandson's home. In fact, I held the original teletype printout in my hand. 

Regarding the "redactions" of the Seattle ATC transcriptions, in over a decade, R99 has provided no evidence of redactions except his own personal opinions. His entire "western flight path" theory has its origin in nothing more than his personal opinions, and in over a decade all evidence for this theory amounts to nothing more than his personal opinions. 

If R99 has anything beyond his opinions and personal feelings regarding the "western flight path" or the "redactions", I'd be thrilled to hear it. 

 

As Chaucer should be aware of if he has done any meaningful research on the matter, what is now known as the Western Flight Path has been discussed at length on this site and Shutter's site for the last 14 years.

It is highly unlikely that Chaucer has held the "original [ARINC] teletype printout" in his hands.  There are only a very limited number of "original" copies of that printout and the NWA Seattle copy (or at least most of the original) is in the Harrison papers.

Chaucer, has claimed recently to have all the information on the hijacking or whatever, so I eagerly await seeing some real data from him.  Chaucer, the ball is in your court.

[Robert99 37]

12 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Here’s the deal. None of us knew anything about the FBI Flight Path before getting into Cooper. So it’s not like we are married to it. Flight Path makes no difference to any of us, so if compelling and convincing evidence was produced in favor of a different flight path, none of us would have any reason to stubbornly stick with the FBI flight path.

Yet so far only two researchers believe in WFP. Why is that? Because everyone else requires evidence and there is NONE for the WFP. 
 

Stop trying to poke holes in the FBI flight path and instead produce some evidence in favor of WFP.

If any progress is to be made in this hijacking, the actual flight path must be determined.  The evidence for the Western Flight Path has been discussed at length over the last 14 years.  All you need to do is read the posts.

[olemisscub 466]

22 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

If any progress is to be made in this hijacking, the actual flight path must be determined.  The evidence for the Western Flight Path has been discussed at length over the last 14 years.  All you need to do is read the posts.

I’ve been paying attention and so has everyone else. If you had compelling evidence there would be more people believing in it. But you don’t have evidence. You have supposed holes you try to poke in the FBI FP. You have no actual evidence for WFP. 

[olemisscub 466]

28 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

 

It is highly unlikely that Chaucer has held the "original [ARINC] teletype printout" in his hands.  There are only a very limited number of "original" copies of that printout and the NWA Seattle copy (or at least most of the original) is in the Harrison papers.

 

I was there with him. It was an original printout.

[Chaucer 103]

It was an original printout. None of this is news. I posted the link on the Forum last year. The photo of the printout with RH's handwriting is right there.

And yes, R99, we have discussed the western flight path for 14 years. Discussed and discussed and discussed. And in that entire time you have provided no meaningful evidence to back up your claims. It's all opinion, feeling, spurious claims, and logical fallacies. I'm tired of it. I imagine everyone else is tired of it. 

The ball is not in my court. The ball is in yours. If you have evidence of an FAA/FBI cover up, present it. If you have a document, a witness statement, a recording of radar data - anything that points positively toward a western route, please present it. 

Because in 14 years, all its been if you making unsubstantiated claims, then getting dunked on, and then you acting indignant about it. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. 

So, go ahead. We're all waiting. 

[georger 197]

12 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

It was an original printout. None of this is news. I posted the link on the Forum last year. The photo of the printout with RH's handwriting is right there.

And yes, R99, we have discussed the western flight path for 14 years. Discussed and discussed and discussed. And in that entire time you have provided no meaningful evidence to back up your claims. It's all opinion, feeling, spurious claims, and logical fallacies. I'm tired of it. I imagine everyone else is tired of it. 

The ball is not in my court. The ball is in yours. If you have evidence of an FAA/FBI cover up, present it. If you have a document, a witness statement, a recording of radar data - anything that points positively toward a western route, please present it. 

Because in 14 years, all its been if you making unsubstantiated claims, then getting dunked on, and then you acting indignant about it. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. 

So, go ahead. We're all waiting. 

Likewise I want to know what Larson did. Hopfully Larson can share his knowledge with us. Its time to move on and the sooner the better.

I want to know why Larson said:

The finding of ransom money in the Columbia River falls within the outlines that I provided to the FBI agent back in the early 1970s.

Edited August 28, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 103]

Ah, Larson.

I spoke with Major Larson on the telephone for about 20 minutes. He had little to offer beyond what he wrote in his letter in Aviator magazine. 

He said that he had nothing to do at all with the construction of the flight path. He said he didn't even know a Capt. Spangler. He said a small, skinny, desperate FBI special agent approached him and provided him the flight path, the weather, the winds aloft, the crew statements, the plane's altitude and indicated airspeed, etc. and he calculated a drop zone. He could not recall the year. He said he pulled the duty because he was a navigator on a C-130, and was the resident "expert" on drop dynamics. 

However, he did seem confused on the details. He said his DZ extended from Mt. St. Helens in the north to Swift Creek Reservoir to the south. He said his DZ was firmly in the Pinchot National Forest.  He then went on and said that the money find in 1980 confirmed his DZ. Obviously, that doesn't make sense geographically, but the man is 84 and this happened over 50 years ago. I wasn't going to be rude and correct him. 

So, yeah, that's pretty much it. I don't think it really adds anything to the case evidence. He did say that he knew precisely what the crew was talking about with the "pressure bump" because C-130 crews experience them all the time when things go out the back. He called it a "blip" that you physically feel. 

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I’ve been paying attention and so has everyone else. If you had compelling evidence there would be more people believing in it. But you don’t have evidence. You have supposed holes you try to poke in the FBI FP. You have no actual evidence for WFP. 

You seem to have missed the point that the FBI is sitting on the "compelling evidence".

[Robert99 37]

23 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Ah, Larson.

I spoke with Major Larson on the telephone for about 20 minutes. He had little to offer beyond what he wrote in his letter in Aviator magazine. 

He said that he had nothing to do at all with the construction of the flight path. He said he didn't even know a Capt. Spangler. He said a small, skinny, desperate FBI special agent approached him and provided him the flight path, the weather, the winds aloft, the crew statements, the plane's altitude and indicated airspeed, etc. and he calculated a drop zone. He could not recall the year. He said he pulled the duty because he was a navigator on a C-130, and was the resident "expert" on drop dynamics. 

However, he did seem confused on the details. He said his DZ extended from Mt. St. Helens in the north to Swift Creek Reservoir to the south. He said his DZ was firmly in the Pinchot National Forest.  He then went on and said that the money find in 1980 confirmed his DZ. Obviously, that doesn't make sense geographically, but the man is 84 and this happened over 50 years ago. I wasn't going to be rude and correct him. 

So, yeah, that's pretty much it. I don't think it really adds anything to the case evidence. He did say that he knew precisely what the crew was talking about with the "pressure bump" because C-130 crews experience them all the time when things go out the back. He called it a "blip" that you physically feel. 

So Major Larson didn't have anything to do with calculating the flight path.  This means that we are back to trying to determine where the so-called FBI Flight Path came from.  And to their credit in my opinion, the FBI apparently didn't have anything to do with calculating that flight path.

[Chaucer 103]

7 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

You seem to have missed the point that the FBI is sitting on the "compelling evidence".

Prove it.

[olemisscub 466]

11 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

You seem to have missed the point that the FBI is sitting on the "compelling evidence".

How convenient for your argument. 

[Robert99 37]

1 minute ago, Chaucer said:

Prove it.

I have done exactly that repeatedly over the last years.  It is obvious that you haven't read any posts related to the Western Flight Path or my experiences with FAA and FBI FOIA requests.

[Robert99 37]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

How convenient for your argument. 

You seem to have an attitude problem.  How many ham sandwiches have you indicted as a prosecutor?

[Robert99 37]

57 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

It was an original printout. None of this is news. I posted the link on the Forum last year. The photo of the printout with RH's handwriting is right there.

And yes, R99, we have discussed the western flight path for 14 years. Discussed and discussed and discussed. And in that entire time you have provided no meaningful evidence to back up your claims. It's all opinion, feeling, spurious claims, and logical fallacies. I'm tired of it. I imagine everyone else is tired of it. 

The ball is not in my court. The ball is in yours. If you have evidence of an FAA/FBI cover up, present it. If you have a document, a witness statement, a recording of radar data - anything that points positively toward a western route, please present it. 

Because in 14 years, all its been if you making unsubstantiated claims, then getting dunked on, and then you acting indignant about it. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. 

So, go ahead. We're all waiting. 

This original printout that you say you saw, was it still on a roll of paper or was it simply Xerox copies of the original printout?

[Chaucer 103]

Just now, Robert99 said:

I have done exactly that repeatedly over the last years.  It is obvious that you haven't read any posts related to the Western Flight Path or my experiences with FAA and FBI FOIA requests.

No, you haven't. You've not provided a single shred of substantial credible evidence that the FBI is "sitting on compelling evidence".

It's all fugazi.

The whole western flight path is an invention of your imagination, and its reality rests entirely upon your personal opinions rather than any "proof".

[Chaucer 103]

Go to the Forum. Find the link I provided freely to everyone. Look for yourself. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Chaucer

[Robert99 37]

6 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Go to the Forum. Find the link I provided freely to everyone. Look for yourself. 

I have looked at the roll in the Harrison papers.  Are you claiming there is a difference in the roll you saw and the Harrison roll?

[georger 197]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

If any progress is to be made in this hijacking, the actual flight path must be determined.  The evidence for the Western Flight Path has been discussed at length over the last 14 years.  All you need to do is read the posts.

You never stop!  The basics of the flight path are known. Its the time of separation and the Drop zone that are still being debated. But, nowhere in any official record is there anything about Tena Bar being the drop zone! That is a new novel idea brought forth by Ulis, subscribed by you since Ulis started appearing on TV   ....  based on absolutely NOTHING but a script for a television program ?

Moreover R99, your original posts going back 14 years did not even claim that Tena Bar was thee Drop Zone!  I wonder if Walker would have even allowed you on his website if your original claim was 'Cooper's DZ was Tena Bar' ! I think Walker might have drawn the line at that. That would have been a claim deserving instant ridicule.  That claim is just one example of how you and Ulis have changed the whole dynamic of the Cooper discussion,  but your original posts did not reflect that 'aberration'.  

Your original posts were as much concerned with you explaining the hydrodynamics and geography of Tena Bar and the surrounding water system, vs your western flight path and DZ alone. Dont you recall your own posts? SafecrackingPLF got on board with your posts and posted maps of the Columbian Basin tributary system  (see attached).  Safecracking followed with his "9 Reasons" and his Logic system with Youtube videos! Agent Carr got on board with this and applauded Safecracking's work. You and your west path faded into the background!

Then when Ulis joined the discussion your west path doctrine had a reincarnation and morphed into:  the new Dtropzone is at Tena Bar. You explained that that is why money was found at Tena Bar -  because "water flows down hill" !  Yada yada yada yada.

Maybe you will change your mind tomorrow with some new novelty ?

Edited August 28, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 103]

2 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I have looked at the roll in the Harrison papers.  Are you claiming there is a difference in the roll you saw and the Harrison roll?

Robert? Are you well? We discussed this very topic on December 4th of last year on the Forum. Go look for yourself. 

The original teletype contained no nefarious or suspicious redactions. Only things redacted were related to flights unrelated to 305. 

This isn't complicated...do you need me to explain more simplistically?

[olemisscub 466]

43 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

You seem to have an attitude problem.  How many ham sandwiches have you indicted as a prosecutor?

Lol I’m not upset in the least. I’m just amused at how expertly you deflect actual questions. 

[Chaucer 103]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Lol I’m not upset in the least. I’m just amused at how expertly you deflect actual questions. 

Well, he has had 14 years of practice...