DB Cooper

[olemisscub 466]

31 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

We’ve gone down many rabbit holes on this case and have debated topics for what seems like forever, but I don’t remember any prolonged discussion on whether he landed with the money. We’ve talked pull, no pull, lived, died, water landing, etc. Could Cooper have landed with the money ? Mac lost it, Gryder too. What info do we have on these scenarios (20 pound bag, tied with cord)? Even if I was an expert with knots, I’d still not bet on that bag landing with me. Maybe with a real smooth exit. 

I've previously asked Mac to go into detail about how his was tied. He produced this drawing. He had some rope in his mystery bag fwiw. He did a pretty clever thing when securing it that SHOULD have worked. He put that top handle of his money bag through his belt. Unfortunately for him, he didn't realize that his belt buckle wasn't sewn onto the belt but was attached with some sort of snaps. As soon as he opened his chute those snaps broke and the bag slipped through the belt. 

As for Gryder, it wasn't tied to him or anything. His intent was always to lose it over the river because he thinks that what happened to McCoy. 

I think if I could ask Tina just one question, it would be whether Tosaw's version was correct or not i.e. was Cooper's bag tied to his body or, as Tosaw claims, did he have the money bag tied to the end of a tether that was dragging behind him.

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

Based on the TBAR money, we know at least some cash got separated from Cooper after he received it..

that could have been during the jump.. before or after.

But, I have always wondered what I would do if I had lost all the money in the jump.. probably assess the situation with the authorities and search if the risk/reward was favourable. 

The reason I brought this up now is because of this letter.. it was mailed Dec 11th from a 980 zip code..

Those codes are to confirm and identify the sender at a later date.. only the sender would have the codes. There was no follow up communication.

I have either deciphered the 717171684* code... or it is a random coincidence. Probably 1 in a million+ coincidence but possible.

But, what I have trouble understanding is why Cooper would still be in the area a few weeks later.. that makes me think the letter was a hoax. I would have gotten out of there ASAP...

Hanging around a few weeks doesn't seem to fit unless Cooper was looking for the money or holed up injured..

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

My issue with Cooper losing the money is the bag itself staying together upon impact. Would a stuffed tight canvas bag wrapped in parachute cord stay intact when it hit the ground or would it explode and throw the contents everywhere? So many variables there. If the bag had hit tree tops first that may have slowed it down tremendously. 

Let's crunch some numbers here and all are related to the Cooper jump.  The typical shroud lines used on parachutes in the 1971 era were rated at about 550 pounds tensile strength each under static conditions.  Using 25 pounds for the weight of the money and its bag (it was actually about 22 pounds), a single shroud line should be able to support 22 times the weight of the money bag under static conditions.

According to Tom Kaye's measurements, Cooper cut enough shroud lines from the second reserve parachute to wrap around the money bag about 10 times.  And he would surely use more than a single line to attach the money bag to himself or his parachute harness.  Consequently, it is a reasonable assumption that Cooper securely attached the money bag to himself or his backpack harness.

The opening shock of Cooper's parachute would probably be an impulsive load, as opposed to a static load, of about 10g's or less.  If tied as mentioned above, the money bag should easily remain attached to Cooper or his rig.  If Cooper had an open canopy and went through some trees on landing, the money bag might be damaged to some extent but would still be essentially intact in my opinion.

But if Cooper were a no-pull, we have a completely different story.  If he impacted at sea level, his minimum speed would be at least 120 MPH if he were in a stable sky diver position with his body parallel to the ground.  But that is also unlikely and his real speed would probably be at least 175 or 200 MPH and he would probably be tumbling.

A significant force is required for the money bag to be damaged enough for the bills to later emerge.  If Cooper landed on top of the money bag while doing 120+ MPH, a pneumatic rupture would occur but it would probably be relatively minor and the vast majority of the bills would remain in the bag.  This is not like popping a balloon since there is not very much air in the bag to begin with.

The money found at Tena Bar was probably in a damaged money bag when it arrived there.  And there is a good chance that the bag was still tied to Cooper's remains or his parachute harness.  Some bills came out and the rest of the bag plus Cooper and his parachute harness went on down stream.

[Robert99 37]

52 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Based on the TBAR money, we know at least some cash got separated from Cooper after he received it..

that could have been during the jump.. before or after.

But, I have always wondered what I would do if I had lost all the money in the jump.. probably assess the situation with the authorities and search if the risk/reward was favourable. 

The reason I brought this up now is because of this letter.. it was mailed Dec 11th from a 980 zip code..

Those codes are to confirm and identify the sender at a later date.. only the sender would have the codes. There was no follow up communication.

I have either deciphered the 717171684* code... or it is a random coincidence. Probably 1 in a million+ coincidence but possible.

But, what I have trouble understanding is why Cooper would still be in the area a few weeks later.. that makes me think the letter was a hoax. I would have gotten out of there ASAP...

Hanging around a few weeks doesn't seem to fit unless Cooper was looking for the money or holed up injured..

This letter is undoubtedly a fake.  He claims not to be a "boasting man" but that is exactly the purpose of the letter.

[olemisscub 466]

4 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Let's crunch some numbers here and all are related to the Cooper jump.  The typical shroud lines used on parachutes in the 1971 era were rated at about 550 pounds tensile strength each under static conditions.  Using 25 pounds for the weight of the money and its bag (it was actually about 22 pounds), a single shroud line should be able to support 22 times the weight of the money bag under static conditions.

 

What about if he jumped like Tosaw claims, with the money tied at the end of a tether like a paratrooper with a leg bag. 

[olemisscub 466]

55 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

I have either deciphered the 717171684* code... or it is a random coincidence. Probably 1 in a million+ coincidence but possible.

 

Does it say "Spongebob Squarepants"?

[Robert99 37]

34 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

What about if he jumped like Tosaw claims, with the money tied at the end of a tether like a paratrooper with a leg bag. 

If he tied the money bag securely to his leg and the parachute harness, then it should still be with him when he landed whether he was a pull or no-pull.  The paratrooper leg bags are tied to the harness and only released to swing from the lanyard when getting ready to land.

If Cooper just tied the money bag to his body or parachute harness by a lanyard, as Tosaw seems to suggest, then you have an "earth and moon" situation and that would change the free-fall dynamics if he delayed opening.  This is bad news with an unpredictable outcome.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Does it say "Spongebob Squarepants"?

No, why do you say that..  is that modern Lawyer humour?

I matched the number.

Edited March 3, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

This letter is undoubtedly a fake.  He claims not to be a "boasting man" but that is exactly the purpose of the letter.

So, it is a fake because it is dishonest..

How do you know it is not from Cooper? What is your evidence?

I thought it was very unlikely Cooper until I matched the code in it.

I have been working on that code for years,,

Now, maybe it is legit..

Edited March 3, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

54 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, why do you say that..  is that modern Lawyer humour?

I matched the number.

Because a military cryptographer decoded the alleged 5th Cooper letter and was able to make it say “SpongeBob SquarePants” instead of “Robert Rackstraw”, as Colbert and team claimed.

[FLYJACK 654]

18 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Because a military cryptographer decoded the alleged 5th Cooper letter and was able to make it say “SpongeBob SquarePants” instead of “Robert Rackstraw”, as Colbert and team claimed.

That was complete nonsense.. and not about the WAPO number which I claimed.

What does that have to do with me.

I found a match for the complete WAPO number, they didn't. Might be a random coincidence but the chances have to be 1 in a over a million..

garbage..

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Media-Release-With-Errors.pdf

Edited March 3, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That was complete nonsense.. and not about the WAPO number which I claimed.

What does that have to do with me.

I found a match for the complete WAPO number, they didn't. Might be a random coincidence but the chances have to be 1 in a over a million..

garbage..

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Media-Release-With-Errors.pdf

Fly, you’ve got to chill out on being so defensive about everything. For real. I think you’ve got PTSD from years of this board being snarky assholes toward you, but it was a knock on Colbert, it had nothing to do with you or whatever you’re working on with this decryption. I’m sure you’re doing solid work, as usual.

Edited March 3, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

7 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Fly, you’ve got to chill out on being so defensive about everything. For real. I think you’ve got PTSD from years of this board being snarky assholes toward you, but it was a knock on Colbert, it had nothing to do with you or whatever you’re working on with this decryption. I’m sure you’re doing solid work, as usual.

Fair enough,, your post was a non sequitur replying to my post about the letter possibly being legit..

You also liked R99's statement claiming it was a fake... which was nonsense logic.

I only matched that number...  none of that other stuff.

If that number is not a random coincidence it is a big big deal...

[olemisscub 466]

12 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Fair enough,, your post was a non sequitur replying to my post about the letter possibly being legit..

You also liked R99's statement claiming it was a fake... which was nonsense logic.

I only matched that number...  none of that other stuff.

If that number is not a random coincidence it is a big big deal...

I liked his post because I personally think all of the letters are fake. That doesn't mean your work isn't legit on that particular one. I'm a skeptic on the letters until proven otherwise. Cooper doesn't strike me as the type to write letters to the authorities. 

[FLYJACK 654]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I liked his post because I personally think all of the letters are fake. That doesn't mean your work isn't legit on that particular one. I'm a skeptic on the letters until proven otherwise. Cooper doesn't strike me as the type to write letters to the authorities. 

 

Skepticism is healthy, but that isn't an argument.

You personally think all are fake,, why? You have no evidence. 

To say Cooper doesn't strike you as... how can you possibly conclude that.

I accept it as your opinion,, but ask yourself,, why do you conclude that. What knowledge or experience causes that belief.. 

 

I think there are three letters that have unique characteristics which may be potentially legit.. 

You can be skeptical and open minded..

 

 

[olemisscub 466]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

You can be skeptical and open minded..

That’s basically what I said: 
 

“I'm a skeptic on the letters until proven otherwise.”

Perhaps “convinced” would have been the better word instead of “proven”. 

[SeventyWonderful 18]

On 3/1/2023 at 3:11 PM, olemisscub said:

Strong possibility he had an underbite. 

Springsteen has one and his lips look a lot like the sketch lips. 

All this time and I never noticed that Bruce Springsteen has an underbite.  And he has essentially the same complexion that Cooper must have had as well.  How cool is that?

Tina Mucklow is supposed to be 5'8" which would make her 5'10" at a mininum in shoes.  Surely she saw Cooper standing up while he was attaching the money bag to himself (whichever way he did it).  Maybe that's why the FBI rounded up his height?

Could the length of his tie help with determining his height?

[FLYJACK 654]

30 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

That’s basically what I said: 
 

“I'm a skeptic on the letters until proven otherwise.”

Perhaps “convinced” would have been the better word instead of “proven”. 

That is the problem..

If you start with the letters are fake,, how do you become convinced, you have already staked a position with no evidence. From there, you would never research those letters to gain any info if you already have the position that they are fake. You now require an outside influence to convince you.

R99 said they are fake because the writer was boasting but claimed he wasn't a boasting man in the letter..

So, the letters are fake because a writer is being a little dishonest..  that makes no sense. If the letter is fake the guy is being dishonest and if it was from Cooper he is a criminal and dishonest.. there should be no assumption that the content is true or honest.

My strategy for this case is to start as skeptical but open.. or neutral. The evidence or argument moves the needle one way the other. 

There are actually many many letters beyond the publicized ones. Most can be dismissed for gross errors or content, but I have found three that are very unique.. and have been analyzing. I can't conclude they are fake or real.

For that letter I matched the number but it was mailed from the area on Dec 11th..  have to reconcile that.

Another letter was heavily redacted, I got it unredacted and it is amazing..  You don't have the unredacted version and never would if you start out with the position they are all fake.

But, you also said Cooper isn't that type of person to send letters, how do you conclude that. I realize it is an opinion but I don't see how you possibly get there.

[FLYJACK 654]

42 minutes ago, SeventyWonderful said:

All this time and I never noticed that Bruce Springsteen has an underbite.  And he has essentially the same complexion that Cooper must have had as well.  How cool is that?

Tina Mucklow is supposed to be 5'8" which would make her 5'10" at a mininum in shoes.  Surely she saw Cooper standing up while he was attaching the money bag to himself (whichever way he did it).  Maybe that's why the FBI rounded up his height?

Could the length of his tie help with determining his height?

Black and white images do not show complexion well..

Mucklow's passport says 5' 8"..

Al Lee said Tina was 5' 6"..  he was standing next to her. Was she shorter or was it a bad guess, either way it tells you height claims are imprecise.

but Flo said that they were ordered to remove their shoes, emergency procedure. I brought this up before but couldn't find anything on whether Tina had her shoes on or not..

Tina had Cooper 5'10"-6',, the FBI probably updated to her estimate because the other estimates were when Cooper was seated though Tina would have seen Cooper standing only briefly. 

It is irrelevant as the FBI admitted they included suspects 5'8" as a threshold.

Edited March 4, 2023 by FLYJACK

[SeventyWonderful 18]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Black and white images do not show complexion well..

Mucklow's passport says 5' 8"..

Al Lee said Tina was 5' 6"..  he was standing next to her. Was she shorter or was it a bad guess, either way it tells you height claims are imprecise.

but Flo said that they were ordered to remove their shoes, emergency procedure. I brought this up before but couldn't find anything on whether Tina had her shoes on or not..

Tina had Cooper 5'10"-6',, the FBI probably updated to her estimate because the other estimates were when Cooper was seated though Tina would have seen Cooper standing only briefly. 

It is irrelevant as the FBI admitted they included suspects 5'8" as a threshold.

It sounds like the FBI used the standard average adult male height at the time so as not overlook someone who would be an otherwise good candidate.

One of the confusing things about this case is the sheer quantity of information available and how much of it is so contradictory in nature.  That's why it's so helpful to go back to the source material and reexamine the available evidence.  I've learned a lot by reading through all the commentary online, especially on this thread, over the past few months and didn't know that the stewardesses had to remove their shoes during the hijacking for example.  

This is why I was asking about the length of the tie.  I know clip on ties weren't as long back then as they are now, but if the tie is on the longer side, then Cooper was probably not 5' 8".  If Tina really is 5' 8" herself, then she would have a good idea of his height because she was sitting next to him.  If she had to keep looking up at him while he was seated next to her, then that would make him taller and another way to estimate his height. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, SeventyWonderful said:

It sounds like the FBI used the standard average adult male height at the time so as not overlook someone who would be an otherwise good candidate.

One of the confusing things about this case is the sheer quantity of information available and how much of it is so contradictory in nature.  That's why it's so helpful to go back to the source material and reexamine the available evidence.  I've learned a lot by reading through all the commentary online, especially on this thread, over the past few months and didn't know that the stewardesses had to remove their shoes during the hijacking for example.  

This is why I was asking about the length of the tie.  I know clip on ties weren't as long back then as they are now, but if the tie is on the longer side, then Cooper was probably not 5' 8".  If Tina really is 5' 8" herself, then she would have a good idea of his height because she was sitting next to him.  If she had to keep looking up at him while he was seated next to her, then that would make him taller and another way to estimate his height. 

Correction,  According to Flo, she was ordered by Rataczak to remove her shoes as that was the procedure for emergencies..  I couldn't confirm if any of the stews did or not..

Tina said she didn't get a good look at Cooper's face, claimed he looked forward and was hunched over,  yet she had input on the sketches,,, the FBI followed her after the hijacking. I don't think she had anything to do with it but she may be compromised as a witness. Something is just off with her.

I don't know about the tie, it was a Pennys Towncraft clipon, they are one size but are they adjustable?

EDIT.. Cooper's actual tie is about 22.5" top to tip.. don't know if that helps any..

Tie's are measured to the top of the taper at the bottom so 2.5" less than the bottom tip = 20" tie length. 20" for a clipon is considered long...  but we don't even know if Cooper wore the tie before the hijacking.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 270]

11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

What do people think?

If Cooper survived but lost the money in the jump would he stay in the area and look for it?

 

That would depend on a number of factors. I basically agree with what olemisscub says about it. (I also agree with R99's assessments.)

If Cooper loses the money on opening, if he's still in the clouds and cannot see exactly where he is over the ground, then he's out of luck. Under canopy, he will drift with the wind far more than the bag in freefall, so the higher he opens, the farther away from it he will land. If he opens really low, can see where he is, and lands soon after, he might have a chance of finding it, but in the dark? It would be predictable that the searches would occur, so he wouldn't want to stay out there long. But if he knew where he was, then after the searches were called off without anything being found, he might go back to look.

However, something olemisscub said about McNally...

 

11 hours ago, olemisscub said:

He unhooked the leg straps to the harness and almost unhooked the chest strap, but decided "where there is life, there's hope"

That just does not seem feasible. The leg straps are the main structural support keeping you in the harness after opening. It would be hard to imagine undoing both leg straps and not falling out, and that would not require undoing the chest strap. Some of those older harnesses were a 'seat' type, where there was a fairly stiff cross-connecter between the leg loops, but still, the whole thing is flexible, and held in place by the legstraps being connected and tightened. The harness part where your arms go through go over your shoulders and run down your sides to a juncture at your hips, at the top of the leg loops. You could conceivably catch yourself by the armpits there and hang on, but that would take great effort.

[Robert99 37]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

R99 said they are fake because the writer was boasting but claimed he wasn't a boasting man in the letter..

So, the letters are fake because a writer is being a little dishonest..  that makes no sense. If the letter is fake the guy is being dishonest and if it was from Cooper he is a criminal and dishonest.. there should be no assumption that the content is true or honest.

My strategy for this case is to start as skeptical but open.. or neutral. The evidence or argument moves the needle one way the other.

Flyjack, when you write "there should be no assumption that the content [of the letter] is true or honest", perhaps you should have included "or fake".  The contents of the letter moved the needle for me to believe that the letter was fake.

People trying to inject themselves into famous public incidents is exceedingly common.  And the appropriate investigators have to take actions of one kind or another to identify them. 

[olemisscub 466]

3 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

 

 

That just does not seem feasible. The leg straps are the main structural support keeping you in the harness after opening. It would be hard to imagine undoing both leg straps and not falling out, and that would not require undoing the chest strap. Some of those older harnesses were a 'seat' type, where there was a fairly stiff cross-connecter between the leg loops, but still, the whole thing is flexible, and held in place by the legstraps being connected and tightened. The harness part where your arms go through go over your shoulders and run down your sides to a juncture at your hips, at the top of the leg loops. You could conceivably catch yourself by the armpits there and hang on, but that would take great effort.

Ya I dunno. I went back and listened to what he said and he said he undid both legs straps and was hanging there about to fall out of the chute when he decided against killing himself and so he hooked back up.

Not sure it makes a difference to what you’re describing but he jumped only wearing a chest pack. He didn’t have a back pack.

Edited March 4, 2023 by olemisscub

[dudeman17 270]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Not sure it makes a difference to what you’re describing but he jumped only wearing a chest pack. He didn’t have a back pack.

 

Yeah I'm not doubting what you say, it just seems odd to me. I'm not completely familiar with all the details of all that older gear, but most harnesses are pretty similar, because a body is what it is. I'm not aware of a front pack only rig with an integrated harness, just those bailout systems that have been previously described where the crewman wears the harness, and clips on the front pack chute if he needs to bail. A lot of older harnesses also had belly bands, like the chest strap but lower. He might have had one of those that was tight enough to hold him under the rib cage.