DB Cooper

[JAGdb 71]

21 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

What do people think?

If Cooper survived but lost the money in the jump would he stay in the area and look for it?

 

If he lived in the area or even greater vicinity, it would have given him flexibility to sit back and kind of wait for an opening.  If he did land in the wooded or remote areas, could maybe even have got a hunting license to give him a little cover or reason for being out there.

If he wasn't from the area, and didn't have a reason for being there, I think it would have been risky for him to hang around in the immediate aftermath.

His comment about right place, right time still sticks with me that he had some kind of ties to the pacific north west, the area was targeted for a reason.

[FLYJACK 654]

2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

If he lived in the area or even greater vicinity, it would have given him flexibility to sit back and kind of wait for an opening.  If he did land in the wooded or remote areas, could maybe even have got a hunting license to give him a little cover or reason for being out there.

If he wasn't from the area, and didn't have a reason for being there, I think it would have been risky for him to hang around in the immediate aftermath.

His comment about right place, right time still sticks with me that he had some kind of ties to the pacific north west, the area was targeted for a reason.

That is possible but the number I potentially matched indicates he did not live in the PNW.

[olemisscub 466]

Does a DC-9 have cockpit controls to lower the stairs or just manual from the rear?

[FLYJACK 654]

10 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Flyjack, when you write "there should be no assumption that the content [of the letter] is true or honest", perhaps you should have included "or fake".  The contents of the letter moved the needle for me to believe that the letter was fake.

People trying to inject themselves into famous public incidents is exceedingly common.  And the appropriate investigators have to take actions of one kind or another to identify them. 

What contents, there are no contents in that letter that indicate it is fake,, it is possible.. but there are several things in there that indicate it could be legit.

Of course there are dozens or more fake Cooper letters but there are three that I have been investigating that are unique,, you have done zero investigation into the letters and just assume they are all fake based on a generality..  

This is something I found with many people in this case,, binary assumptions based on opinion or bias.. people take hard positions based on nothing. Once you have taken that position critical thinking ends.

Fact is, we don't know if the letter is fake or not.

You can have that opinion but you have no evidence.

You have to be skeptical of everything and that includes your own assumptions.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Does a DC-9 have cockpit controls to lower the stairs or just manual from the rear?

Two controls in the rear one inside and one outside,, like the 727

 

[CooperNWO305 146]

Which stewardess was living in Missouri in 1989? I’m assuming Alice. One from Eugene, OR is mentioned later on. This is from 1989, so they were still showing photos then. 

[FLYJACK 654]

6 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Which stewardess was living in Missouri in 1989? I’m assuming Alice. One from Eugene, OR is mentioned later on. This is from 1989, so they were still showing photos then. 

Tina was in Eugene later.

Edited March 4, 2023 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 146]

14 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Tina was in Eugene later.

Two weeks later same deal in Eugene, OR. 

[FLYJACK 654]

Here is what I believe those codes in the letter are for,,

Each of the four newspapers was send a copy of the typed letter with a unique code..

That code was only known by the sender and could be used by the sender to confirm that they were the author.. only the sender knew the codes. Those codes were meant for further communications..  It could have been a predicate to sell information.. but there was no followup.

Those codes were something known to the sender and unique receiver. Figuring out those codes may identify the sender.

Edited March 4, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Which stewardess was living in Missouri in 1989? I’m assuming Alice. One from Eugene, OR is mentioned later on. This is from 1989, so they were still showing photos then. 

 

Hancock fits the redaction at the bottom. Wheeler fits as well, but I’m not sure when Flo became a Wheeler.

[CooperNWO305 146]

Anyone have a flight sim for the DC8,9,10,737. A couple months back I had clipped some pics of the cockpits and flight manual for these planes to look at the flap settings. I found 15 degrees was an actual setting on all of these. An aircraft manual might show it too. From my perspective, Cooper did not have real inside knowledge of the 727. He clearly had some time to plan things and seemed meticulous in ways. I expect he would have tried to see a cockpit of a plane, maybe a 727. It’s probably a broken record, but my profile is a guy with some knowledge of aviation, but not a pilot. He does not come across as one. The FBI had him as slightly educated, high school, The Boeing thing just does not die, and in my mind is a red herring at this point. If he worked for Boeing in the Seattle area and stayed there, then law enforcement let a big fish slip through their fingers. The tie has gone from Boeing, to Teledyne to Tektronix to RMI to RemCru, to I don’t know where else. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Anyone have a flight sim for the DC8,9,10,737. A couple months back I had clipped some pics of the cockpits and flight manual for these planes to look at the flap settings. I found 15 degrees was an actual setting on all of these. An aircraft manual might show it too. From my perspective, Cooper did not have real inside knowledge of the 727. He clearly had some time to plan things and seemed meticulous in ways. I expect he would have tried to see a cockpit of a plane, maybe a 727. It’s probably a broken record, but my profile is a guy with some knowledge of aviation, but not a pilot. He does not come across as one. The FBI had him as slightly educated, high school, The Boeing thing just does not die, and in my mind is a red herring at this point. If he worked for Boeing in the Seattle area and stayed there, then law enforcement let a big fish slip through their fingers. The tie has gone from Boeing, to Teledyne to Tektronix to RMI to RemCru, to I don’t know where else. 

Yes, 737 has 15 degree flaps, not sure if all variants.

and most DC-9 variants did as well, not all.

DC9-10

Flaps 0 - not used for takeoff or landing
Flaps 10 - takeoff setting
Flaps 20 - takeoff setting
Flaps 30 - approach and landing setting used for abnormal situation such as engine out approach and landing
Flaps 40 - normal setting for landing, i.e., company standard
Flaps 50 - not used, see below *

DC9-30/40/50

Flaps 0 - could be used for takeoff only in "Flaps 0, Slats extend" configuration
Flaps 5 - takeoff setting
Flaps 15 - takeoff setting
Flaps 25 - approach and landing setting used for abnormal condition such as engine out situation
Flaps 40 - normal setting for landing, i.e., company standard
Flaps 50 - not used, see below *
 

DC-9/30 flaps 15..

[FLYJACK 654]

15 degree flaps is a generic take off setting.. it might have nothing to with a specific model.

Some planes use different increments like percentage or 1/4, 1/2 of full... that may equal 15 degrees,,

 

Found this about the DC-3 (C-47).. 

Douglas Service Bulletin DC-3 No. 261 contains information relative to the identifying characteristics of the above listed axle assemblies.

(c) A flap setting of 15 degrees is required to meet the take-off and climb requirements at weights in excess of 25,200 lbs. at sea level except for those aircraft operated in accordance with a FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual or those aircraft eligible for operation in accordance with the take-off limitations of FAR 121, in which case a retracted flap position may be used for take-off.

 

[CooperNWO305 146]

13 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

15 degree flaps is a generic take off setting.. it might have nothing to with a specific model.

Some planes use different increments like percentage or 1/4, 1/2 of full... that may equal 15 degrees,,

 

Found this about the DC-3 (C-47).. 

Douglas Service Bulletin DC-3 No. 261 contains information relative to the identifying characteristics of the above listed axle assemblies.

(c) A flap setting of 15 degrees is required to meet the take-off and climb requirements at weights in excess of 25,200 lbs. at sea level except for those aircraft operated in accordance with a FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual or those aircraft eligible for operation in accordance with the take-off limitations of FAR 121, in which case a retracted flap position may be used for take-off.

 

Knowing the DC3/C47 opens it up to a whole lot of military people, especially from WW2. The sheer number of Americans and Canadians who served in uniform at that time is amazing. The flaps setting for him could have been to keep the plane in the air given the configuration, and/or to keep it flying at a low speed. I’d lean towards the flaps setting for him being so the plane would stay airborne just above stall speed. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Knowing the DC3/C47 opens it up to a whole lot of military people, especially from WW2. The sheer number of Americans and Canadians who served in uniform at that time is amazing. The flaps setting for him could have been to keep the plane in the air given the configuration, and/or to keep it flying at a low speed. I’d lean towards the flaps setting for him being so the plane would stay airborne just above stall speed. 

It gets confusing because the DC3/C47 uses fractions of full flaps.. not degrees,, some planes used percentage of full,, those may = 15 degrees but not be marked on the controls.

The 15 degree flaps is a general setting for takeoff.. 

I recall some prior discussion as to whether Cooper actually used the number 15,, I think it was Larry Carr,,  Cooper initially demanded only flaps down,, then the crew had to go back to him to confirm and the number 15 came up, I think Larry thought it may have come from the crew or Cooper was influenced by the crew.

IMO, flaps 15 is a well known standard takeoff setting and doesn't imply only a 727.

But Cooper definitely had some general aviation knowledge, not necessarily the 727 specifically. The fact that he didn't understand the airstair operation confirms that.

Edited March 5, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

The C-130 has rear ramp/door controls in the cockpit....

That is is the most likely source for Cooper's "experience"... and error applying it to the 727.

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

The C-130 has rear ramp/door controls in the cockpit....

That is is the most likely source for Cooper's "experience"... and error applying it to the 727.

This has been my belief for some time.

[FLYJACK 654]

Hadn't caught this before,, 

Cooper demanded the crew members REMAIN seated when Tina got the items....

They were seated when Cooper got the money and the chutes.. where were the other stews, Alice and Flo at that point.

Edited March 5, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

The CRAFT map thing came up a wile back..

 

CRAFT acronym

[Robert99 37]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

This has been my belief for some time.

The 727s used in SEA by Air America and other organizations didn't necessarily have the "standard" controls for the aft stairs.  The hijacking may have been the first time that Cooper had seen the aft stair controls in a US airline 727.

Also, in ordering 727s an airline could probably specify to Boeing the flap degrees for the flap lever indents that they wanted in their aircraft.  At 15 degrees flap deflection, the leading edge slats and the leading edge Kruger flaps would most likely be in use and that alone would specify a limiting airspeed for the 727 airliner.

The IFR "clearance" for the hijacked airliner was essentially given when the air traffic control people told the airliner crew to "do whatever you have to and we will keep people out of your way."  There was no detailed IFR clearance requested by the airliner crew or given by air traffic control.

[FLYJACK 654]

57 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

The 727s used in SEA by Air America and other organizations didn't necessarily have the "standard" controls for the aft stairs.  The hijacking may have been the first time that Cooper had seen the aft stair controls in a US airline 727.

Also, in ordering 727s an airline could probably specify to Boeing the flap degrees for the flap lever indents that they wanted in their aircraft.  At 15 degrees flap deflection, the leading edge slats and the leading edge Kruger flaps would most likely be in use and that alone would specify a limiting airspeed for the 727 airliner.

The IFR "clearance" for the hijacked airliner was essentially given when the air traffic control people told the airliner crew to "do whatever you have to and we will keep people out of your way."  There was no detailed IFR clearance requested by the airliner crew or given by air traffic control.

The C-22 military version didn't even have cockpit controls for ventral stairs.. it is beyond speculation to claim the Commercial 727-100QC Air America planes had cockpit controls.. and also claim Cooper was familiar with them. You need some evidence.

When the stairs were replaced with a slide, there were no stairs to control.

The IFR procedure requires maps, that is what they were referring to.. the maps not the IFR procedure itself..

[FLYJACK 654]

1986 prints no value case closed.

[Robert99 37]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The C-22 military version didn't even have cockpit controls for ventral stairs.. it is beyond speculation to claim the Commercial 727-100QC Air America planes had cockpit controls.. and also claim Cooper was familiar with them. You need some evidence.

When the stairs were replaced with a slide, there were no stairs to control.

The IFR procedure requires maps, that is what they were referring to.. the maps not the IFR procedure itself..

And you need to read the post you are replying to.  No one other than Cooper has claimed that the cockpit could control the aft stairs.  But the aft stair controls were not necessarily the same from airline to airline or to other organizations that used the 727.  Boeing sells 727s and the buyers specify some of the equipment that they want in their aircraft.

IFR procedures do not necessarily "require" maps in abnormal situations such as this hijacking.  The airline crew didn't know if they could make it to Reno until they were already in the Portland area and NWA aircraft performance engineers concluded that it could make it there and so informed the crew.

Basically, the airliner didn't know where it was going to end up when it took off from SEATAC.  And air traffic controllers plainly told the flight crew if you have to land at a location, and do not have maps for that location, we will talk you through the landing.

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

And you need to read the post you are replying to.  No one other than Cooper has claimed that the cockpit could control the aft stairs.  But the aft stair controls were not necessarily the same from airline to airline or to other organizations that used the 727.  Boeing sells 727s and the buyers specify some of the equipment that they want in their aircraft.

IFR procedures do not necessarily "require" maps in abnormal situations such as this hijacking.  The airline crew didn't know if they could make it to Reno until they were already in the Portland area and NWA aircraft performance engineers concluded that it could make it there and so informed the crew.

Basically, the airliner didn't know where it was going to end up when it took off from SEATAC.  And air traffic controllers plainly told the flight crew if you have to land at a location, and do not have maps for that location, we will talk you through the landing.

I did read it, you have zero evidence the Air America or any 727's had cockpit controls for the ventral stairs. 

The FBI comm states CRAFT maps, also the Harrison notes does.. CRAFT is acronym for the IFR procedure. Those maps were requested and delivered, they were CRAFT maps because that is what they called them whatever procedure they actually used.

[FLYJACK 654]

It is nearly impossible to refute certain statements.. particularly concerning prominent deceased persons.

It is equally virtually impossible to positively eliminate many suspects.. and indeed Seattle has reopened several previously eliminated suspects... because of new evidence..