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quade

DB Cooper

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40 minutes ago, SeventyWonderful said:

Wanted to de-lurk to add that Hahneman stood 5' 9" according to his 1942 draft card. (In 1946 he's down to 5' 8".) That seems to be a little short for Cooper who was reportedly 5' 10" to 6" tall according to the witnesses.

Judging from the composites, the real Cooper seems to have had an underbite perhaps causing his pouty lower lip. The medical term is class 3 malocclusion, which would have required braces or orthodontic surgery to correct.

 

underbite.jpg

before-after-class-3-malocclusion-1_facial_changes.png

The sketches are just sketches... an underbite, maybe. Who knows.

Everybody knows about Hahneman's draft cards, he was probably between 5'8" and 5'9" and rounded up or down at times.. in shoes he was probably about 5'10"..

I have witness estimates for him from 5' 9" to 6'... almost the exact same range as Cooper.

The original Cooper description was 5' 9" to 6', later changed.. Cooper was seated almost the entire time and some of the witnesses had him at 5' 9"..  

Bottom line height estimates during recall are not that accurate.. when asked to recall, most people guess in hindsight.

He is on the short end of the range but within spec.. the fact that the witness range for his hijacking almost matches the Cooper range indicates that.

 

 

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Spreckel's revised Comp A that he drew is in this vault. I believe it was in a much earlier vault but was hardly visible. Would be nice to have a higher quality. It appears that mostly what he did is what he said to do: widen the face by a bit. Interesting that he kept the lower face as is and didn't widen it as well.

spreckelsketch.png

spreckelsketch302.png

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2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

He is on the short end of the range but within spec.. the fact that the witness range for his hijacking almost matches the Cooper range indicates that.

 

 

Not being argumentative, but I've yet to come across any EAL 175 witness claiming their hijacker was over 5'10. 

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Just now, FLYJACK said:

Are you calling me a liar? Again?

Are you malfunctioning? I said I'm not being argumentative but I've yet to come across that i.e. I'd be interested in seeing that. 

Why must everything be interpreted by you as hostile? My tone was inquisitive. 

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1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Are you malfunctioning? I said I'm not being argumentative but I've yet to come across that i.e. I'd be interested in seeing that. 

Why must everything be interpreted by you as hostile? My tone was inquisitive. 

When somebody starts with "Not to be argumentative" they usually are..

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(edited)
1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

When somebody starts with "Not to be argumentative" they usually are..

Yes normally, but I feel I have to add that type of disclaimer when saying something like that to you because you kinda do take offense easily…as this entire exchange has kinda shown. I genuinely was curious where you saw that because I had not come across that yet.

Edited by olemisscub

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4 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Yes normally, but I feel I have to add that disclaimer when saying something like that to you. You’re kind of a grump, haha.

I am grumpy because I am being pressured to unnecessarily publicly disclose my research...  I have been collecting this stuff for 6 years and initially disclosed it as I went but was completely trashed for posting facts.. I stopped for several reasons. I have exclusive Cooper stuff as well.

It probably doesn't make sense now but releasing info will undermine my ability to advance this case... it jeopardizes my ability to get more information.

I am on the 1 yard line 4th down and every time you guys bring up H I feel like I am penalized 10 yards.

I have much more info than everyone and that has given me completely different perspective. I can't discuss things adequately without disclosing my info and disclosing info undermines my research... a catch 22.

As a lawyer, is it smart to disclose your case before you get to court?

The problem with Hahneman isn't his lips or his height... it is something else that I am trying to resolve. Something that has three capital letters.

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43 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

I can see how that sounded contentious, but I'd curious to hear your take on that discrepancy. It's a good question! Why would so many people get his height wrong on one flight but right on the other? 

Not so..

Both had a similar range. An FBI agent had Hahneman at 5'10"-6'

For Cooper Tina said 5'10-6', Flo was 6'1 then later 6', Mitchell and Gregory were 5'9". Lysne was 5'10"-11, LABISSONIERE was 5'10", Spreckel 5'10"... Spinal Tap Stonehenge was 18"... 5'10" is the sweet spot..  the estimates tell me he wasn't noticeably tall or short.

The initial FBI Cooper description was 5'9"-6', that was changed. The FBI biased the higher range for some reason, maybe favouring Stews but that is subjective. Cooper was seated almost the entire time..

IMO, Hahneman was 5'9.5"-10" in shoes..  that puts him within spec..

And these height estimates were based on recall, not very accurate.. studies show that people aren't really very accurate recalling height but they select an average height based on other characteristics.... race, class, age, body shape etc.. Studies show recall of hair is more accurate. Hair is a visual imprint, height is an estimate.

Regardless, he is close enough to include. 

 

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Here Al Lee recalled that Tina was 5'6" she was actually 5'8" and he saw her standing right in front of him..

1172498652_ScreenShot2023-03-02at6_21_17AM.png.cef73aba202de86bfba49fcd10d888e9.png

Cooper was seated nearly the entire time.. When Flo noted he was 6'1" she probably never saw him standing. Flo was the outlier, she might never have seen him standing. 

Tina made a trip out of the plane when Cooper went to the Lav. She saw him go into the lav but he was seated when she returned.

683419685_ScreenShot2023-03-02at6_12_49AM.png.2b89389517cafda8972282be88404fcc.png

So, Cooper's height was estimated largely while he was seated except for a brief moment.

Hahneman was different, he was forced to switch planes, he had to get up and walk from one plane to another surrounded by the crew.

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Even though the FBI low side description was updated to 5'10" from 5'9" they were using 5'8" as an inclusive threshold..

They may have just gone with Tina's height description.. 

But that makes sense because Cooper was seated almost the entire time and most (self) reported heights are without shoes.. or about an inch low.

I argued this with Shutter and he would never accept that Cooper could be a suspect "recorded" under 5'10"... the FBI disagrees.

1637764466_ScreenShot2023-03-02at6_08_20AM.png.e4a9a5fec934831c5440e1db2cd0e474.png

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1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Flo was the outlier, she might never have seen him standing. 

 

By my estimation, her 302 indicates that she positively saw him standing at least once, but probably twice:

First, she is who was checking passengers onto the plane at the rear entrance of the aircraft. This is how she remembers that he was the second to last to board. So presumably he walked right past her and would have stood right next to her as he showed her his ticket. 

Second, she claims that she saw him putting on his parachute. My guess is that Cooper didn't do that sitting down. 

I'm with you in thinking that Cooper's height via the Stews is overestimated a bit. Witnesses in fear will almost always do that when they are given a brief look at someone. Hahneman is certainly different. He was around his Stews for 15 hours or so. 

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13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

By my estimation, her 302 indicates that she positively saw him standing at least once, but probably twice:

First, she is who was checking passengers onto the plane at the rear entrance of the aircraft. This is how she remembers that he was the second to last to board. So presumably he walked right past her and would have stood right next to her as he showed her his ticket. 

Second, she claims that she saw him putting on his parachute. My guess is that Cooper didn't do that sitting down. 

I'm with you in thinking that Cooper's height via the Stews is overestimated a bit. Witnesses in fear will almost always do that when they are given a brief look at someone. Hahneman is certainly different. He was around his Stews for 15 hours or so. 

Flo was the outlier, most others were about 5'10"... the average male height in 1970..

Cooper wasn't "the hijacker" until after he sat down.. would she have accurate recall before he was "the hijacker".

Studies show that witnesses tend to recall an average height...  unless a subject was noticeably short or tall they cite the average based on other physical characteristics..

The circumstances were different, though the height range is still close. For Cooper, only the crew knew he was a hijacker and he was seated most of the time. For Hahneman, everyone knew he was a hijacker and he was forced to walk out of the plane to another plane with the crew. 

For Hahneman there would be a bias to being more accurate..

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(edited)

I'm confounded by this 302. It's Williams or Lysne due to the Northwest Airlines tag after the name, and "Mr. Williams" fits on the one but "Williams" doesn't fit in the other. There are only 7 spaces in the lower one. Williams doesn't fit and neither does Lysne or Mr. Lysne.

will1.png

will2.png

Edited by olemisscub

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1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I'm confounded by this 302. It's Williams or Lysne due to the Northwest Airlines tag after the name, and "Mr. Williams" fits on the one but "Williams" doesn't fit in the other. There are only 7 spaces in the lower one. Williams doesn't fit and neither does Lysne or Mr. Lysne.

will1.png

will2.png

"Hal Williams," fits

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/11/25/All-in-black-during-the-day-of-polyesters-and-plaids/3918375512400/

 

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(edited)
38 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The problem with that is the paragraph justifications beneath it. Look where the two paragraphs begin in the type set below. It's all very strange because the redaction is pretty long but the justification of the paragraph indentions don't match the redactions. But I suppose they wouldn't have placed a redaction that long otherwise. Doubt they'd be laying a redaction over blank space. 

Edited by olemisscub

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32 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

The problem with that is the paragraph justifications beneath it. Look where the two paragraphs begin in the type set below. It's all very strange because the redaction is pretty long but the justification of the paragraph indentions don't match the redactions. But I suppose they wouldn't have placed a redaction that long otherwise. Doubt they'd be laying a redaction over blank space. 

I agree, those bottom two indentations are extreme, not a regular format.

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16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

What do people think?

If Cooper survived but lost the money in the jump would he stay in the area and look for it?

 

If we use McNally as a template, then no. Speaking to him, he told me that as soon as he lost the money he immediately looked around to try and find lights or visible objects to triangulate where he was at the moment the bag slipped away so he could go looking for it once he landed. Because there were broken clouds beneath him, he was unable to do so. He knew that with with the wind blowing him away from that spot that he'd never be able to find it in the dark. This is when he became so pissed he came close to killing himself. He unhooked the leg straps to the harness and almost unhooked the chest strap, but decided "where there is life, there's hope" and reached the conclusion that he would just pull off another hijacking. The next time he'd make sure to secure the bag better. 

Presumably if Cooper lost the money, it would have been at the same time Mac did: when he opened his chute. If Cooper pulled below the cloud cover or, if he had been successful where Mac had been unsuccessful in finding a way to triangulate his position, then I suppose he could have looked for it. Did he have a flashlight in his mystery bag? Obviously that would have been necessary if he was going to attempt to find it that night. 

But I suppose your question could also be: did he stay in the area the next few days looking for it? It seems that if he was local or had a place to stay nearby that he could have seen where the search efforts were happening and that would have impact his decision making on the issue. If he knew that where they were looking was NOT where he jumped, then he likely wouldn't have seen any risk in hanging around and walking through the woods or fields looking for it. A small white canvas bag though? Good luck. 

My issue with Cooper losing the money is the bag itself staying together upon impact. Would a stuffed tight canvas bag wrapped in parachute cord stay intact when it hit the ground or would it explode and throw the contents everywhere? So many variables there. If the bag had hit tree tops first that may have slowed it down tremendously. 

 

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We’ve gone down many rabbit holes on this case and have debated topics for what seems like forever, but I don’t remember any prolonged discussion on whether he landed with the money. We’ve talked pull, no pull, lived, died, water landing, etc. Could Cooper have landed with the money ? Mac lost it, Gryder too. What info do we have on these scenarios (20 pound bag, tied with cord)? Even if I was an expert with knots, I’d still not bet on that bag landing with me. Maybe with a real smooth exit. 

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