DB Cooper

[377 21]

yes I meant Boeing 307. 337 was mistake. You can find anything Snow.

Great to see the mighty Sluggo Monster back too!

How is the money analysis coming Georger and Tom?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Now for Sluggo's theory: he had a phD in avionics,
knew Max Gunther, had been a paratrooper in WWII, probably had FBI and CIA connections,
knew the real story of JFK and maybe some of
the principles, married Jo whoever, and hid the loot in some cemetary in the State of Washington ...
and maybe was in the Astronaut core or ran for
public office? (It's Teddy!)

G.

You left out the Masonic (Order of the Amaranth) connection and the specific issues raised by the Bay of Pigs and MLK assassination...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

You left out the Masonic (Order of the Amaranth) connection and the specific issues raised by the Bay of Pigs and MLK assassination...

I was just reading a nice doc I found with lots of photos about USAF special ops during the cold war. Had a picture of the cuban exiles training in Guatemala for their paratroop in during Bay of Pigs. There were 200 paratroops?
I thought the picture of the rig was interesting.
(attached)

From "Apollo's Warriors, United States Air Force Special Operations during the Cold War", Col Michael E. Haas, USAF Retired 380pp

[skyjack71 0]

Interesting - Earl Cossey and William Hayes.

Did Williams Hayes make a name for himself in the skydiving world? Just curious - is this the same Hayes who ended up in WA or OR?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

This is in the strange but true category. But I consider this a Snowmman Excellent Post.

Hopefully all you skydivers know who Thomas Pynchon is, right?

It provides evidence of my claim of engineering being only one of the ways to acquire 727 knowledge and how we have a stunning lack of knowledge about how information was created and maintained in the '60s at Boeing.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6750/is_/ai_n28819965

"Early in 1960, after having graduated from Cornell and while writing V., Thomas Pynchon moved to Seattle and began working for the Boeing Airplane Company. What Pynchon did while working at Boeing has puzzled scholars almost from the moment of the very private author's literary debut. When we try to delve into his stint at Boeing--first mentioned by Lewis Nichols and Dick Schaap--we reach dead ends or find conflicting information. Yet Pynchon's time at Boeing is perhaps the most documented period of his life, and over the years a number of interesting (though not always accurate) bits of information have emerged."

.....

"In "The Quest for Pynchon," Mathew Winston provides the first substantial, if brief, discussion of Pynchon's work for Boeing. Though Winston's essay is not particularly well-documented, he does give Pynchon's dates of employment as February 2, 1960, to September 13, 1962. What did Pynchon do during this time? Winston gives only a vague account: Pynchon worked "not as editor of a house organ ... but as an 'engineering aide' who collaborated with others on writing technical documents" (284-85). In half a sentence Winston first refutes a suggestion Nichols had made, then drops a tantalizing hint, but provides no evidence for his claims and leaves many questions unanswered."

.....

"Five years after Winston, David Cowart develops the picture further. Cowart locates one of Pynchon's colleagues at Boeing, Walter Bailey, who worked "'a couple of desks over'" from Pynchon "in Boeing's giant Developmental Center." According to Bailey, Pynchon "wrote for an intramural sheet called the 'Minuteman Field Service News' (to be distinguished from the company's official house organ, The Boeing News)." Specifically, the two men "worked in the Minuteman Logistics Support Program," and Pynchon had "a 'Secret' clearance." Pynchon, Bailey recalls, was an introvert, had few friends at Boeing, and, while working, would occasionally "shroud himself in the enormous stiff sheets of paper used for engineering drawings and work within this cocoon, like an aerospace Bartleby, by whatever light filtered in" (96). The men became friendly when "Bailey made a casual literary reference one day, which generated an immediate and enthusiastic response from Pynchon." Pynchon, Bailey discovered, was "'very literate'" and also well-versed in "technical matters" (97). Unfortunately, Bailey's reminiscences end there (except for a further brief reference, relegated to an endnote, to Pynchon's technical competence), and Cowart, like Winston, fails to inquire further--about either Minuteman Field Service News or, more intriguingly, what Pynchon wrote for it."

...

page 2 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6750/is_46-49/ai_n28819965/pg_2?tag=artBody;col1

" Work was assigned, the subject studied, for example a loading-pin mechanism, then a visit was made to the on-site manufacturing and application of the pin, a chat with the design engineers, then the writing up of the paper, using a Boeing style-book as reference, before editorial approval.
"

In his quest for examples of Pynchon's Boeing writing, the author of this article examines on page 7

" A closer look at the issue, however, challenges such a generalization. "MIU Plug Problems," for example--which at first seems similar to the other articles in the issue--contains the following passage:

Those who design electrical cables become--not unreasonably--concerned when these cables are damaged in use. For a hypersensitive few, perhaps, the only significant difference between the cable assembly one has designed and one's own offspring is the $600 tax deduction; every tear in a protective covering, every deviation of a plug from the perfectly circular, every bent pin or contaminated socket is like a judo chop, inflicted by an invisible but tireless adversary; an adversary who haunts one's uglier nightmares, wears AF blue and is named The User. Ask one of these delicate souls what he thinks The User has been doing with the MIU cable plugs lately and most of the answers you get will be unprintable. (BSN 33: 6)

Not quite by the book, to be sure."

(edit) Pynchon worked on his book "Gravity's Rainbow" throughout the 1960s and early 1970s while he was living in California and Mexico City.

(edit) The article is a beautiful piece of research. It can be had as a single html page (to avoid having to page thru) at
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6750/is_46-49/ai_n28819965/print?tag=artBody;col1

(edit) Pynchon's purpose is to discuss the safety precautions necessary when airlifting the IM-99A Bomarc missile, yet seemingly excess material repeatedly creeps in. Consider the following passage:

As this article goes to press, the safety record of Bomarc Airlifts can be summed up in four words: so far, so good. You may recall, however, the optimist who jumped off the top of a New York office building. He was heard to yell the same thing as he passed the 20th floor: so far, so good.

[georger 197]

Quote

This is in the strange but true category. But I consider this a Snowmman Excellent Post.

Hopefully all you skydivers know who Thomas Pynchon is, right?

It provides evidence of my claim of engineering being only one of the ways to acquire 727 knowledge and how we have a stunning lack of knowledge about how information was created and maintained in the '60s at Boeing.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6750/is_/ai_n28819965

"Early in 1960, after having graduated from Cornell and while writing V., Thomas Pynchon moved to Seattle and began working for the Boeing Airplane Company. What Pynchon did while working at Boeing has puzzled scholars ....................................

Reply> from Wiki-

Pynchon attended Oyster Bay High School, where he was awarded 'student of the year' and contributed short fictional pieces to his school newspaper (Pynchon 1952-3).

After graduating from high school in 1953 at the age of 16, Pynchon studied engineering physics at Cornell University, but left at the end of his second year to serve in the U.S. Navy. In 1957, he returned to Cornell to pursue a degree in English.

After leaving Cornell, Pynchon began to work on his first novel. From February 1960 to September 1962, he was employed as a technical writer at Boeing in Seattle, where he compiled safety articles for the Bomarc Service News (see Wisnicki 2000-1), a support newsletter for the BOMARC surface-to-air missile deployed by the U.S. Air Force. Pynchon's experiences at Boeing inspired his depictions of the 'Yoyodyne' corporation in V. and The Crying of Lot 49, and both his background in physics and the technical journalism he undertook at Boeing provided much raw material for Gravity's Rainbow.

After resigning from Boeing, Pynchon spent some time in New York and Mexico before moving to California, where he was reportedly based for much of the 1960s and early 1970s, most notably in an apartment in Manhattan Beach (see Frost 2003), as he was composing his most highly regarded work, Gravity's Rainbow. Pynchon during this time flirted with the lifestyle and some of the habits of the hippie counterculture (see, for example, Gordon 1994);

In 1964, an application to study mathematics as a graduate student at the University of California, Berkeley, was turned down (Royster 2005).

In 1966, Pynchon wrote a first-hand report on the aftermath and legacy of the Watts riots in Los Angeles. Entitled "A Journey Into the Mind of Watts," the article was published in the New York Times Magazine (Pynchon 1966).

Following this period Pynchon concentated on literary
pursuits leading to a number of literary-academic
affiliations which has served as the basis for the rest of his life. On several ocassions Pynchon has been nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature.


G.

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

from wikipedia. All hail the comic book!
How many wannabe Pynchons existed in WA at Boeing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon

"Along with its emphasis on loftier themes such as racism, imperialism and religion, and its cognizance and appropriation of many elements of traditional high culture and literary form, Pynchon's work also demonstrates a strong affinity with the practitioners and artifacts of low culture, including comic books and cartoons, pulp fiction, popular films, television programs, cookery, urban myths, conspiracy theories, and folk art. This blurring of the conventional boundary between "High" and "low" culture, sometimes interpreted as a "deconstruction", is seen as one of the defining characteristics of postmodernism."

[377 21]

so much for "Cooper had to be an engineer"

Into every myth
A little Snow must fall.

Back to the Boeing drawing board.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Into every myth
A little Snow must fall.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[steve1 5]

Quote

[ There were 200 paratroops?
I thought the picture of the rig was interesting.
(attached)

That has to be the worst military exit position that I have ever seen. Feet and knees should be together. Knees should be straight. Elbows should be locked against your side with your hands on the side of your reserve. I'd say that guy forgot all his training or he didn't have much to start with....What a mess!

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

[ There were 200 paratroops?
I thought the picture of the rig was interesting.
(attached)

That has to be the worst military exit position that I have ever seen. Feet and knees should be together. Knees should be straight. Elbows should be locked against your side with your hands on the side of your reserve. I'd say that guy forgot all his training or he didn't have much to start with....What a mess!

!
The whole document is a nice read. The Bay of Pigs deal is just one thing in it. Here's the url. Anyone interested in historical USAF special ops should check it out. Some nice pics in it. lots of pages
(best to save to disk first, big pdf can hang up your pc, acroreader thing: 7.6 MB)
http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/aupress/Books/Haas/Haas.pdf
or if you want to copy the link
http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/aupress/Books/Haas/Haas.pdf

[snowmman 3]

The sunglasses could mean nothing, much like the tie and clasp.

But I always wondered if they meant Vietnam.

Nice photo of VNAF crew with their H-34. Check out the belt buckles! (and sunglasses)

[georger 197]

Quote

from wikipedia. All hail the comic book!
How many wannabe Pynchons existed in WA at Boeing?

Reply> One!

• Quote

[skyjack71 0]

I am LOST. What does this Thomas Pynchon have to do with Cooper. He was 34 yrs old in 1971 and worked for Boeing for a couple of yrs. So did a lot of other people who helped design the 727.
These guys where actual engineers with engineering degrees as was Duane's brother.

I guess I got lost in the blizzard.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

Quote

The sunglasses could mean nothing, much like the tie and clasp.

But I always wondered if they meant Vietnam.

Nice photo of VNAF crew with their H-34. Check out the belt buckles! (and sunglasses)

There was a LOT of stuff left by the USAF when we evacuated from Nam. A few years ago some enterprising merchant in Viet Nam was trying to market a huge supply of overhauled USAF C 130 engines left behind. They had no maintenance logbooks and because of that werent worth anywhere near his asking price, even though they were in sealed "cans" and probably in fine shape. Some fairly complete AD1 Skyraider aircraft were also offered.

AFAIK, there wasnt a lot of military jumping done in Nam. Most troop insertions were done in helos. I actually know a Vietnamese paratrooper. He works as a barber in the US. I took his stories about military freefall jumps with a grain of salt until I saw photos later. He jumped from H 34 RVNAF helos. The freefall jumps were not combat jumps, but were part of his service, not some weekend sport thing.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I am LOST. What does this Thomas Pynchon have to do with Cooper. He was 34 yrs old in 1971 and worked for Boeing for a couple of yrs. So did a lot of other people who helped design the 727.
These guys where actual engineers with engineering degrees as was Duane's brother.

I guess I got lost in the blizzard.

"Gravity's Rainbow"

My understanding of skydiving is that the primary interaction is with the field known as "gravity"
I can't understand this fantasy that it's a primary interaction with air!
:)

[377 21]

Quote

Quote

I am LOST. What does this Thomas Pynchon have to do with Cooper. He was 34 yrs old in 1971 and worked for Boeing for a couple of yrs. So did a lot of other people who helped design the 727.
These guys where actual engineers with engineering degrees as was Duane's brother.

I guess I got lost in the blizzard.

"Gravity's Rainbow"

My understanding of skydiving is that the primary interaction is with the field known as "gravity"
I can't understand this fantasy that it's an interaction with air!
:)

Yeah Snow, the air stuff is just fluff. It's all gravity all the time. Gravity ALWAYS wins. We skydivers just try to make sure it isnt a shutout.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

There was a LOT of stuff left by the USAF when we evacuated from Nam.

just FYI. I probably should have explained better.. that photo was from before we pulled out. It's not guys "claiming" stuff afterwards....It was South Vietnamese Air Force. I think a special ops group they had. VNAF is short for the South Vietnamese air force the US supported. The US shipped them a lot of stuff over the years.

http://vnaf.net is a good reference (there are many!) with actual numbers of planes/helis shipped in certain years. Also has percentage lost. Wikipedia has good stuff too.

377 obviously knows all this history, I think I just didn't explain the timing of the photo.

[377 21]

Didnt Pynchon do a year or two in physics? If he believed that there are gravity waves, then they would have a spectrum which could be refracted and spread out into a "gravity rainbow." I want to generate gravity waves, invert them and use them to cancel Earth's gravity when I jump. Beats the hell out of a canopy. Sluggo, Georger, Snow, when can you start design work on my prototype?

I still wonder how Cooper KNEW he could jump the 727. I didn't know that in 71 and I dont think many others did. Not even the NWA crew knew that. So we have Cooper armed with narrowly distributed 727 knowledge that has its roots in Boeing. How far removed from Boeing was Cooper? Did he work there? Did he know someone who did?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I still wonder how Cooper KNEW he could jump the 727. I didn't know that in 71 and I dont think many others did. Not even the NWA crew knew that. So we have Cooper armed with narrowly distributed 727 knowledge that has its roots in Boeing. How far removed from Boeing was Cooper? Did he work there? Did he know someone who did?

377

I think we're missing some key info about the FBI investigation in '71, that makes it not worth our time to even speculate about the questions you raise.

The "interesting" times for 727 go back to 1959 when the design started. So the question is: what did the FBI investigate at Boeing? How far back? I'm not even sure the FBI understands when Boeing employees first got together to start jumping socially.

The FBI might, but like I've said before, we really don't have any more facts today, than people did 10 years ago. We have an illusion of more facts today.
I can believe that it's because the Cooper-related facts are almost zero. But there are plenty of FBI investigation facts, that I guess as a matter of course, we'll never know.

Oh well!

(edit) I'm not even sure Ckret can reel off the history of the USPA and their records, and what came before USPA, from the top of his head..Do we even know what percentage of jumpers from '62 to '70 would show up in any records? This goes to my claim that the "everyone knows everyone" theorem is baseless.

[377 21]

OK, so how many skydivers here really DID know who Pynchon was?

Gore Vidal has made the comment that comparing Pynchon to James Joyce is like comparing a kindergartener to a graduate student. Vidal was just being his usual self, an effete snob. Like to see James Joyce write a tech report on a Bomarc missile.

Given the choice, I'll bet James Joyce would have rather shared a pint with Tom Pynchon than Gore Vidal.

Who among us has or seeks a Ph.D. from Miskatonic University?

Just trying to scope out the DBC forum's literary landscape.

Oh, and what's the latest on the NIGHT CLERK?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Quote

Do we even know what percentage of jumpers from '62 to '70 would show up in any records? This goes to my claim that the "everyone knows everyone" theorem is baseless.

Old jumpers just THINK that they know all the old jumpers. It is an illusion that I suffer from. It was brought home to me recently when someone mentioned a jumper who was a constant and large presence on my DZ in 68. I had TOTALLY forgotten about him because there had been no intervening reminders, no logbook entries or old photos with him in it. Had you asked me if I could name the top ten RW jumpers on my DZ from back then I would have said absolutely yes, but I would have unknowingly omitted him and picked number 11 for the empty slot.

People can slip through the cracks of the human memory.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Oh, and what's the latest on the NIGHT CLERK?

Hastur was part of the Cuthulu mythology.
At points, he is described as a benign shepherd.
At other times, he is something that kills you in an ugly fashion.

However, Hastur was called "He Who Shall Not Be Named"
because when you spoke his name, he would appear to you, but not in a good mood. Summoning him was a bad idea.

Since the Night Clerk is not going to be named, and seems
to be another of the fairly mythical characters in this tale,
the parallels are uncanny at this point.

I vote that we start calling him Hastur.


From now on, we can assign any unnamed, secret beings with
the names of other characters from mythology to keep them
straight.

[377 21]

I KNEW there just had to be some Lovecraft fans here. Hastur it is.

I must consult my Necronomicon tonight and see what it reveals.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Oh, and what's the latest on the NIGHT CLERK?

Hastur was part of the Cuthulu mythology.
At points, he is described as a benign shepherd.
At other times, he is something that kills you in an ugly fashion.

However, Hastur was called "He Who Shall Not Be Named"
because when you spoke his name, he would appear to you, but not in a good mood. Summoning him was a bad idea.

Since the Night Clerk is not going to be named, and seems
to be another of the fairly mythical characters in this tale,
the parallels are uncanny at this point.

I vote that we start calling him Hastur.


From now on, we can assign any unnamed, secret beings with the names of other characters from mythology to keep them straight.

Reply> funny. And Sluggo can put up a page of pseudo-nyms.