DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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The armed services reduced their number by quite a bit at this time. Example - the 6th SFG was deactivated in 1971.

That is very interesting, and imo an important addition to the "what happened in 1971" list.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

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Tandems have made skydiving more accessible,
and skydiving is more familiar to the general public
today than then.

Considering that, sit down with 10 non-skydiving friends and ask them if they would jump out of an airplane without any prior training or familiarity with gear. How many "Yes" votes?


Reply: This is what I was getting at. My guess
is even skilled jumpers might pick another skyjack escape plan and not chose parachuting? If true,
then what swings the plan toward parachuting -
skills/experience alone? If not true, then what
swings the plan to parachuting?

Now, if you add: must bail over wilderness - how does that affect the choices?

If you add: must bail over urban area - what affect
in choices does that have?

Keep in mind. Cooper did not specify a route! He
coiuld just as well been jumping over the ocean so faras we know and in fact a coastal route was talked about! (what would Cooper have done then?)

Cooper did not exert great force (that we know of)
in getting people to comply. His bomb (and the low
money count?) had Nyrop order compliance. Cooper
let passengers and crew off the plane which helped. The transcript reads as if they just wanted rid of the guy and Cooper did not to enrage people.....

But something swings this toward parachuting.
Could it be as simple as 'prospective ease of escape
and hard to detect or trace'?

G.



- This points to some experience, however little.

Cooper picked the non-sport gear. You go with what you know.
- Points to familiarity with military gear.

The era of the 70s.
- VN era military is discharging people.
- 40yo estimated age. A 20-year career vet is 38.

[snowmman 3]

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But something swings this toward parachuting.
Could it be as simple as 'prospective ease of escape
and hard to detect or trace'?

Now I'm know I'm speculating widely..and only because it doesn't feel like any profile fits well...
But:

If I was Cooper, and I decided I just had to do this damn thing for whatever twisted set of reasons.....I would be conflicted by:
1) I know I can do it even though no one else thinks I could
2) After I did it, it will be obvious who could have done it...because the community of jumpers from '62-'70 would be relatively small, and the necessary skills so obvious...and yet even though I know every bureaucracy in town is totally incompetent..I've seen them do things they shouldn't be able to achieve

SO...
3) I'd stress about them finding me...I KNOW I'll make it seem like a totally crazed whuffo did it. I'll jump in a business suit! I mean it's no big deal...only the jumpers less fully tuned into the consciousness of man-air symbiosis than me would think the suit thing is a big deal...Hell they'll create the alibi for me! It can't be him! He's either not good enough or not whuffo enough..

i.e. no one could have done the hijack! It didn't happen cause there's no way someone in a business suit would jump off a 727!

Which is why the best plan for robbing a bank, is in a motorized wheelchair.

[snowmman 3]

okay I'm off on a literature tangent again, but there's two kinds of people in the world:
Those who think Yossarian lives at the end.
and
Those who don't.

The whole Cooper thing has a Catch-22 flair to it
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22

"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
"That's some catch, that Catch-22," Yossarian observed.
"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed."


or if you're worried about bureaucracies:

"An old woman explains: Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can’t stop them from doing."

[Orange1 0]

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2) After I did it, it will be obvious who could have done it...because the community of jumpers from '62-'70 would be relatively small, and the necessary skills so obvious...

Yes, but this may have been less of an issue for a jumper with military experience than one known to the sport community?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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2) After I did it, it will be obvious who could have done it...because the community of jumpers from '62-'70 would be relatively small, and the necessary skills so obvious...

Yes, but this may have been less of an issue for a jumper with military experience than one known to the sport community?

You're saying Cooper got freefall experience in the military? I don't think that makes sense given his age.
Or are you saying he got static-line jump experience and went with that?

He may have been WWII military that got into sport jumping for some reason.

But I don't see why saying "just military" solves anything. If he was so gungho military that he'd be freefalling in the military as part of the job, I think there would be different personality/behavior issues than what Cooper displayed? (biased speculation by me)

[snowmman 3]

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2) After I did it, it will be obvious who could have done it...because the community of jumpers from '62-'70 would be relatively small, and the necessary skills so obvious...

Yes, but this may have been less of an issue for a jumper with military experience than one known to the sport community?

I thought I already proved that this concept of everyone knowing everyone in the sport "community" from '62-'70 is a lie.

Tell me the history of USPA records for instance, if you know them. (hell even when USPA started!)

[Orange1 0]

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2) After I did it, it will be obvious who could have done it...because the community of jumpers from '62-'70 would be relatively small, and the necessary skills so obvious...

Yes, but this may have been less of an issue for a jumper with military experience than one known to the sport community?

You're saying Cooper got freefall experience in the military? I don't think that makes sense given his age.
Or are you saying he got static-line jump experience and went with that?

He may have been WWII military that got into sport jumping for some reason.

But I don't see why saying "just military" solves anything. If he was so gungho military that he'd be freefalling in the military as part of the job, I think there would be different personality/behavior issues than what Cooper displayed? (biased speculation by me)

I asked before how many mil. jumpers may have had HALO experience in that time frame but got no answers.

Military - more tight-knit, perhaps less of a feeling that someone would turn criminal esp from an elite unit, doesn't "solve" everything but makes it perhaps less likely. That was all I was saying.

I don't get your "gung ho" aspect. HALO jumpers, even "ordinary" paratroopers, AFAIK have always been highly trained elite units. Your note about "personality issues" does indeed I think show a huge bias. Being "gung ho" about being in the military at that time - for someone who grew up in the WW2/immediate post WW2 era - in an era where there was almost universal acknowldgement that the US saved the world from the Nazis/fascists - would have been very different to what it is now.

If he only had SL experience, I have raised that as well - makes it more likely he opened at exit with all the likely negative outcomes from that that have already been discussed.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

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I thought I already proved that this concept of everyone knowing everyone in the sport "community" from '62-'70 is a lie.

I must have missed that. Could you refer me to the relevant post with such proof please?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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I thought I already proved that this concept of everyone knowing everyone in the sport "community" from '62-'70 is a lie.

I must have missed that. Could you refer me to the relevant post with such proof please?

If it was true, I'd get a response to the following:
Hey out there in DZ land: you guys know anyone who was on those C-47 loads with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club in the late '60s?

or

Hey out there in DZ land: who else was jumping at that civilian club at Clark Air Base back in the '60s...remember that crazy shit we did?

or

Who the heck was that guy that jumped with Seattle Skydivers in '63. you remember him? remember the rig he used?

or

fuck...remember the old 1929 Travelair at Issaquah. I loved it!

I'll await a response.

[377 21]

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Excellent point. A lot of people in the sport community were jumping surplus military gear.

What year would you estimate would be the last year that it would be hard to find someone that had not jumped a Paracommander, ever?

(edit) Said another way: last year you could find someone who had never jumped a Paracommander..
(edit) To make it more difficult, I've read that the new jumpers at jump clubs sometimes got the old gear, like 28' rounds.

Assuming they are actively jumping every year. Assuming we're talking about both poor and non-poor jumpers.

US would be one year.
non-US another year.

This estimate would provide a reasonable bounds for when someone who was a "jumper" "had" to be familiar with Pioneer gear. (I'm assuming Paracommander but we don't know. I don't know what range of Pioneer gear was around in '71. They did pilot emergency rigs, but we're told it was some kind of Pioneer Sport rig of unknown vintage, Type 226).

So what are the two years?

(edit) But there has already been hundreds of posts about Cooper's implied expertise based on gear selection. People "have" to have made an estimate in their minds. What is it? If no estimate was made...well..

(edit) Note I'm assuming correlation between "Pioneer sport rig" and Paracommander based on my weak understanding of the era. I may be missing a better correlation.

(edit) Also: Cossey was 33 in '71? What year did he start jumping?

See excerpt below from my jump memoirs proving that surplus gear was jumped well into the mid 70s, at least by me. Anyone who was at US DZs in the late 60s and later would have seen commercial sport gear (Pioneer, Security and others) but knowing it and owning it were separated by a lot of dollars. Surplus gear was dirt cheap. I paid $50 for my entire rig including a reserve in 1968.

"Jumping was still a part of my life during many years of school. It was fun, cheap and just too hard to quit for an adrenaline junkie like me. One reason it stayed cheap was that I jumped "boat anchor" surplus parachute gear exclusively until about 1974. It worked. It was dirt cheap. I had grown accustomed to the brutal landings and knew how to roll with them. My main chute was a USAF 28 ft C9 jet ejection canopy made in 1952 and my reserve was a USN 26 ft conical made in 1956. The landings under that tired porous C9 were hard, really hard. At least it looked good. The canopy was bright orange and white with alternating panels. Although quite porous from the many jumps made prior to my ownership, it had no rips or patches and I was proud of it. I stuck with that gear until it was literally laughed at and hopelessly obsolete. I am pretty sure I was the last guy to jump a surplus round at Pope Valley DZ in CA. The PCs (PC=Paracommander, a commercial round canopy) had already come and gone. There I was in a sky full of square ram air canopies with my old surplus round C9. It was like a model T running in a NASCAR race. Fortune smiled on me and I lived long enough to get a good career going and eventually buy decent gear."

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

thanks 377 for the first hand info.

So my question: why the heck did anyone listen to Cossey's opinion in 1971? I'm sure he's a great guy.
He was doing competitive stuff in '71. I can see news articles about him in '68.

I'm really curious. What's his background? He was 33 in '71. He probably didn't have jump experience back to '62?

I'm just asking. Shouldn't be any foul in not knowing something.

[skyjack71 0]

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If this link with Max Gunther is as solid as you now claim - lets forget youve never mentioned any of this
in any forum before - why when Gunther was informed
by you of your evidence didn't he pick right up on this
and issue a national best seller. It was in his power to do so. It was in your power to do so through Gunther.
Why did reporters at the NY Times etc miss the
connection all these years? Maybe you have just written
Geoff Gray's book for him.

I asked Gray back when he first contacted me in regards to Christainson about Max's files? If he has found them - it is news to me.

Should Geoff even discuss me in his book without written permission and exploit anything he and I have discussed he would have the devil to pay. Frankly I think he is much more of a man than that - he is an aggressive writer, but he treated me with respect when he did the Christiansen story - he did not violate a confidential agreement at that time and I do not expect him to do so in the future.

As for Max - the last letter I got from him he was going to California because one of his books was being made into a movie - it was during this time - there was a problem. We had a phone conversation after the last of his many trips to California...which will forever be confidential- unless that person has access to Max's files.

Max was an interesting person and he had done his book on Cooper. He was entering the last phase of his life and this is not something he needed financially nor the stress and research that it would be involve. It was as simple as that and you can read between the lines anything you like.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

What we really need is a boobie angle, though.

The only thing I can find is here. The Icelandic Girls.
It makes sense.

http://www.anusha.com/icegirls.htm

"Heidi told me about two bars where the Icelandic girls would go to meet and drink, so I started going there too. Both bars were next to Harold Square in Midtown Manhattan. One was called the Executive Lounge and was on 33rd Street directly across from the McAlpin Hotel. The address was 30 West 33rd Street. However, that closed down and turned into a strip club, so the Icelandic girls moved over to O'Reilly's Pub on 54 West 31st Street."

[skyjack71 0]

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In regard to handwriting samples, I have several hand written letters from Duane to his mother. Speaking of that, there was a comprehensive investigation into Duane’s life, from his teen years through his death. We tried very hard to link Weber to the Cooper case, we put a large amount of effort into the investigation. From our Seattle office to the Jacksonville office to our lab in Quantico and a few in between. We interviewed family members, colleted evidence and documents outlining his life; civilian and military. I have the file at my desk; from that investigation no leads were developed that could be followed linking Weber to the Cooper case.

Keep in mind this is not a member of the a victims family seeking justice or a family member seeking justice from a wrongful conviction. This is someone wanting to find justice by having her husband named as a hijacker and after a comprehensive investigation the FBI’s refusal to do so. That ranks very low on the “seeking justice” scale and my efforts to help. That is why I have encouraged those wanting further review to seek a private investigator. My mind is not closed, I just need evidence, not stories that have no investigative avenue. No one is hiding anything and if a private investigator, or anyone, was able to come up with something that could link Weber to Cooper (and we could prove it) so be it; case solved.

I take to CASE on this - I will be talking to the the main FBI office tomorrow - the FBI DID not talk to his SISTER or his BROTHER. They interviewed only an ex-wife and I have dicussed this before. They interviewed the man who bought the van. They did not even ask for the names and phone numbers of friends and family.

IF the FBI's investigation was SO thorough WHY did Agent Hope deny that DUANE was in MCNEIL and the ARMY in March of 2000. GIVE me a break? WHY did they NOT do the interviews before individuals died? Why did it take a new journalist getting me to go public for them to do anything.

THE FBI did NOT do a comprehensive investigation on DUANE WEBER until it was too late.

We have discuss this before and NOW I take it to TASK.

The FBI ranks very low on the justice scale - when a citizen and a NEWS JOURNALIST were able to find out more than the FBI did in 4yrs of investigation.

Had I not have expected the FBI to do their job when they were contacted in 1996 - a private investigator would have been hired.
I expected the FBI to do its job in due course and in a timely manner, yet 4 yrs later basically NOTHING had been done. By then the trail was cold on my end.

The man who bought the van was gone, the sister was ill, the brother was already old, the items I kept had been handled and handled.

The FBI did NOT even ask for DNA until 2003 - 3 yrs after I went public! How many people do you think handled those things from 1995 to 2008 (eight yrs)?

Definitely not a TIMELY investigation. And definitely not comprehensive until after I went public in 2000.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

In A.D. 2101
War was beginning.
Captain: What happen ?
Mechanic: Somebody set up us the bomb.
Operator: We get signal.
Captain: What !
Operator: Main screen turn on.
Captain: It's you !!
CATS: How are you gentlemen !!
CATS: All your base are belong to us.
CATS: You are on the way to destruction.
Captain: What you say !!
CATS: You have no chance to survive make your time.
CATS: Ha ha ha ha ....
Operator: Captain !! *
Captain: Take off every 'ZIG'!!
Captain: You know what you doing.
Captain: Move 'ZIG'.
Captain: For great justice.

[Orange1 0]

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I thought I already proved that this concept of everyone knowing everyone in the sport "community" from '62-'70 is a lie.

I must have missed that. Could you refer me to the relevant post with such proof please?

If it was true, I'd get a response to the following:
Hey out there in DZ land: you guys know anyone who was on those C-47 loads with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club in the late '60s?

or

Hey out there in DZ land: who else was jumping at that civilian club at Clark Air Base back in the '60s...remember that crazy shit we did?

or

Who the heck was that guy that jumped with Seattle Skydivers in '63. you remember him? remember the rig he used?

or

fuck...remember the old 1929 Travelair at Issaquah. I loved it!

I'll await a response.

Maybe you should have a look at the rest of the threads in this forum and not just the DB Cooper one... there are plenty along those lines.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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Maybe you should have a look at the rest of the threads in this forum and not just the DB Cooper one... there are plenty along those lines.

That makes absolutely no sense. I'm a whuffo, and it's all I can do to not get booted from a DB Cooper thread. There is no way I would post to any other thread at DZ.com. I did once purely by accident. Nope. I can see that it's right to be in a box here.

Hey if you're a jumper, why don't you?

[Orange1 0]

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Maybe you should have a look at the rest of the threads in this forum and not just the DB Cooper one... there are plenty along those lines.

That makes absolutely no sense. I'm a whuffo, and it's all I can do to not get booted from a DB Cooper thread. There is no way I would post to any other thread at DZ.com. I did once purely by accident. Nope. I can see that it's right to be in a box here.

Hey if you're a jumper, why don't you?

Snow, I didn't say "post", I said "have a look"! Why are you being so argumentative?? You said there is no evidence that the community was small; I simply pointed you to some. If there is a specific question you want asked, maybe you can browse some of the other threads and PM one of the posters who looks like they might have been in the area at the time?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

ignore the thread title and read through the posts, & have a look at the pics..

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1433655;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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ignore the thread title and read through the posts, & have a look at the pics..

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1433655;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

I'm only exasperated because you don't seem to grasp my point.

Anyone who's been in the sport for only 40 years is a FNG, for us theorizing on a particular kind of Cooper profile.

40 year old reminisces are no more useful than I believe talking to Cossey in '71.

Isn't that a reasonable point of view?

I think I'm just stating the obvious. Am I wrong?

[Orange1 0]

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I'm only exasperated because you don't seem to grasp my point.

Anyone who's been in the sport for only 40 years is a FNG, for us theorizing on a particular kind of Cooper profile.

40 year old reminisces are no more useful than I believe talking to Cossey in '71.

Isn't that a reasonable point of view?

I think I'm just stating the obvious. Am I wrong?

You're not wrong - on that - but you do seem to be shifting the goalposts... from when you originally stated you didn't think the community was an "everyone knows everyone" type. Seems to me you said one thing but thought you were making a point on something else!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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I'm only exasperated because you don't seem to grasp my point.

Anyone who's been in the sport for only 40 years is a FNG, for us theorizing on a particular kind of Cooper profile.

40 year old reminisces are no more useful than I believe talking to Cossey in '71.

Isn't that a reasonable point of view?

I think I'm just stating the obvious. Am I wrong?

You're not wrong - on that - but you do seem to be shifting the goalposts... from when you originally stated you didn't think the community was an "everyone knows everyone" type. Seems to me you said one thing but thought you were making a point on something else!

What goalposts? Where were the goalposts before?
Are you saying there was a profile based on any clear rational thinking? I thought all we had was something Ckret read in Psych Today? Can you rearticulate where you thought the goalposts were and why and whether you think it makes sense?

I don't care where the goalposts are. I'm just trying to think clearly.

[happythoughts 0]

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40 year old reminisces are no more useful than I believe talking to Cossey in '71.

A few years ago, I had some beer-light-on conversations around the bonfire with Wash/Calif jumpers of that day:

- The community, at the time, was small enough
that if a jumper went suddenly missing it was noticed.
30 regular jumpers at a dz and "Joe" doesn't show up again?

- The FBI interviewed many people and, in some cases,
asked them to re-create the jump using similar gear and
conditions. All the investigation of possible leads was done then.

- Some of the people of that era were not interested in
attracting the attention of the FBI for personal reasons
and stayed away from any discussions.

- Some of the people had personal theories about the identity
of DBC. They weren't interested in pointing a finger at
someone that they knew, just to help the airline.

I didn't ask anyone who they thought DBC was.

Even at the most minimal use of resources, this pursuit is a waste. The FBI needs to let it go.


I have a theory DBC may have been a space alien.

(wait for it...)
.
.
.
.
"Duane's sister told me that he had an interest in astronomy..."

[snowmman 3]

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- The community, at the time, was small enough
that if a jumper went suddenly missing it was noticed.
30 regular jumpers at a dz and "Joe" doesn't show up again?

That's bullshit beer talk. People could disappear. There is no way "people" know what happened to everyone.

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- The FBI interviewed many people and, in some cases,

We have no idea who the FBI talked to. I've never seen a list of who they talked to, or who was on the suspect lists.

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All the investigation of possible leads was done then.

How the F. do you know? And why does investigating leads have anything to do with whether Cooper was a jumper in '62-'70? "Investigating" means nothing compared to reality.

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The FBI needs to let it go.

I couldn't care less what the FBI does. Isn't that obvious?