DB Cooper

[377 20]

propblast

I want to talk about the jump aspects of this caper but am not sure what the correct questions are....

ANY parachuting related question or statement will be a breath of fresh air here Propblast. Fire away.

"We interrupt the Jerry Springer, Dr. Phil, Judge Judy, Oprah show to bring you some relevant on topic information."

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Amazon 7]

377

***I want to talk about the jump aspects of this caper but am not sure what the correct questions are....

ANY parachuting related question or statement will be a breath of fresh air here Propblast. Fire away.

"We interrupt the Jerry Springer, Dr. Phil, Judge Judy, Oprah show to bring you some relevant on topic information."

377


DUUUUDE are you sure we are allowed to do that???

[quade 3]

Amazon

Hundreds if not thousands.. have done night jumps under similar if not worse conditions.

Mmmm, fully trained military personal with the proper gear for the jump and survival situation to follow, sure.

I doubt many civilians have done night, cloud punching, foul weather, jet jumps into forests with no spotting, either before or since the DB Cooper incident.

Let's be clear here. While some people may have performed similar type jumps, even under the best jump conditions there was still an entire night to survive in a wet forest and lots of people have died from less.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[propblast 0]

Agreed on the last. Its one thing to do this in perfect conditions. It is quite another to do it in the conditions that were present. I know guys from contemporary times with modern spotters and big ass purpose driven platforms that jumped into the trees that then themselves had issues. Just look at that History of HALO operations that was posted several years ago on the site.

The reason, I asked about the aircraft is because it is often pointed out that the AC was jumped later at the WFFC. I recently saw it shown utilized as a static line platform in Laos. In both of these cases the AC was rigged in its own way for jumper safety. The platform that Cooper exited was so far from optimal and he made no attempt to rig it as such, even in a temporary fashion. It makes me wonder if he was a trained parachutist.

The fact that he did not ask for any kind of jump bag with the equipment leads me to believe that he wasn't military trained. He may have been a civilian skydiver but, I can't see a trained parachutist of any kind thinking that a money bag tied on with 550 would stay attached.

Here is another question. Why did he jump where he did? What led him to spot the place that he actually stepped off the ramp? If he was a trained freefall parachutist something would have led him to that moment. Again in all the reading I have yet to find that clue for me. If there is no reason maybe that does point to a absolute novice.

It is interesting to me that nothing was found in the search grid. Makes me wonder if he pushed a bag or bundle out the back to get the plane to buck. It also leads me back to wondering what would make sense as a target DZ. If Cooper was as smart as he seemed, I can't see him leaving that aspect to luck.

I agree that a round jump could be made at night, even into the trees. I may have made a few myself. I just think that anyone would try to tip the scales in their favor and wouldn't blindly leave the ramp….err…aft staircase without a solid plan. What do you guys and gals think?


But, I am sure this has been covered somewhere in this thread.
It is hard to find amongst all the BS.

Propblast

[Amazon 7]

quade

***Hundreds if not thousands.. have done night jumps under similar if not worse conditions.

Mmmm, fully trained military personal with the proper gear for the jump and survival situation to follow, sure.

I doubt many civilians have done night, cloud punching, foul weather, jet jumps into forests with no spotting, either before or since the DB Cooper incident.

Let's be clear here. While some people may have performed similar type jumps, even under the best jump conditions there was still an entire night to survive in a wet forest and lots of people have died from less.

Let me assure you.. most of the thousands of bomber crews of the Allied Air Forces had minimal training with no jumps. They jumped from aircraft in flight attitudes detrimental to life and limb. The mental state at the time... only they know for sure.. but knowing that not all of their buddies were alive... or were not able to get out.. weighed heavily. Most of them jumped with no survival equipment at all, other than things recommended to them to be carried in their flight clothing. They jumped into some of the best or worst weather every month of the year that Mom Nature could dish out to them over Europe. They had no spot... since the time of aircraft destruction was up to their enemy. Many of their enemies also experienced such a jump, some of them getting multiple jumps in over the war. Country boys might have fared better than city boys.. but it all depended on what shape you were in when you got to the ground. The survivors filled Stalags all over the map... They were Americans.. they were Brits.. they were Canadians They were Aussies and they were Kiwi's as well as from all other allied nations who flew on those aircraft. Thousands of them survived, and returned with honor.

Much respect to all of them.

8AF total loses:
KIA - 26,000 to 28,000 (I have no idea, why there is so big discrepancy)
MIA - 28,000 (POWs in German captivity)
WIA - 18,000 (psychological casualties not included - nobody ever counted them)
Total: 72,000 to 74,000 (34% of those who experienced combat)

Source: "Eight Air Force:The American bomber crews in Britain", Donald L. Miller.

Bomber Command crews also suffered an extremely high casualty rate: 55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4% death rate), a further 8,403 were wounded in action and 9,838 became prisoners of war.[11] A Bomber Command crew member had a worse chance of survival than an infantry officer in World War I.[12] By comparison, the US Eighth Air Force, which flew daylight raids over Europe, had 350,000 aircrew during the war, and suffered 26,000 killed and 23,000 POWs.[13] Of the RAF Bomber Command personnel killed during the war, 72% were British, 18% were Canadian, 7% were Australian and 3% were New Zealanders

Lifted from Wiki, however, its the same information that Ive seen countless times and dont think I could dispute them.


An extraordinary mix of people from all over the world flew with Bomber Command, including Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, Poles, Czechs, South Africans, French, Americans, Jamaicans, Rhodesians. Some served in mixed squadrons, some formed their own squadrons. Almost all arrived in wartime Britain with no previous experience of the British way of life. http://www.rafbombercommand.com/master_about.html

[377 20]

I don't like restraints on free speech.

Quade punishes speech that he finds offensive but I've seen no evidence that he has prevented anybody's posts from appearing prior to banning.

Bruce has created a system of prior restraint. That's a little bit ironic.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

Quade wrote

Quote

Let's be clear here. While some people may have performed similar type jumps, even under the best jump conditions there was still an entire night to survive in a wet forest and lots of people have died from less.

Lets assume he died either on impact or later from injuries or exposure.

Seems very likely that his remains and at least some gear would be discovered. It's not a jungle. The area is traveled year after year by hunters and other recreational users.

If he landed alive there was no need to do a super hiding job on the parachute gear. All he needed to do was conceal it enough so it wouldn't be easily seen before he could complete his escape.

He could have splashed but Georger presented a convincing analysis that showed this ending to be very unlikely.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Amazon 7]

377

Quade wrote

Quote

Let's be clear here. While some people may have performed similar type jumps, even under the best jump conditions there was still an entire night to survive in a wet forest and lots of people have died from less.

Lets assume he died either on impact or later from injuries or exposure.

Seems very likely that his remains and at least some gear would be discovered. It's not a jungle. The area is traveled year after year by hunters and other recreational users.

If he landed alive there was no need to do a super hiding job on the parachute gear. All he needed to do was conceal it enough so it wouldn't be easily seen before he could complete his escape.

He could have splashed but Georger presented a convincing analysis that showed this ending to be very unlikely.

377

I thought of the splash scenario... It would have been easy to land in the Lake Merwin reservoir based on where the placard was found but then you have to deal with the money at Tena Bar that shouts down the water landing in the lake. The money would not have floated upstream 10 to 15 miles from the mouth of the Lewis River up by Woodland especially after making it over the spillway or thru the turbines.. then many many miles down the Lewis...

[mrshutter45 21]

well, first of all Mr. I'm leaving the form?????

He has the blog set up to moderate the first new post made. after that the moderation stops. you sound bitter over this? days ago you were so backed up with work and yet found time to monitor two sites.

"Hatred, racism, or name-calling are NOT allowed...and will be deleted without mercy."

that is on your site, not much different than what Bruce says.

you call people Cooper nuts, Galen said psychos. who is right and who is wrong?

If not mistaken you are the one who constantly says he doesn't trust anyone on here so how is it bad for Bruce not to trust people coming on his site? I had a feeling with your track record that you wouldn't last but a couple days not posting. I guess I won that bet.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

377

Quade wrote

Quote

Let's be clear here. While some people may have performed similar type jumps, even under the best jump conditions there was still an entire night to survive in a wet forest and lots of people have died from less.

Lets assume he died either on impact or later from injuries or exposure.

Seems very likely that his remains and at least some gear would be discovered. It's not a jungle. The area is traveled year after year by hunters and other recreational users.

If he landed alive there was no need to do a super hiding job on the parachute gear. All he needed to do was conceal it enough so it wouldn't be easily seen before he could complete his escape.

He could have splashed but Georger presented a convincing analysis that showed this ending to be very unlikely.

377

Let's also keep in mind that the jump time vs exactly where the plane was could be inaccurate. ckret gives a time frame of up to 8:15. the plane is getting closer to water. it's pretty obvious that nobody knows the exact spot. this seems to be a major clue needed to understand where he jumped. we can say a 50/50 shot of making it, but the closer you get to large bodies of water the lower the percentage becomes. I realize that the percentage of hitting water is low, but that's back at the 8:11-12 mark on the map. the path could be accurate and the timing could be off. then again, the path could be wrong to some extent too?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[sailshaw 0]

SAILSHAW

The site for Bruce may be approached by:

Google "DB Cooper Discussion Site on Word Press."

Bob Sailshaw
[email protected]

[quade 3]

sailshaw

The site for Bruce may be approached by:

Great! I think that will be quite enough free advertising for the site for now. I trust anybody who cares to go there will and it no longer requires people to point it out.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 20]

Which illustrates my prior point.

The initial posts here about Bruce's site werent blocked. After a couple were posted it was declared off limits for future posts.

I dont like any censorship but that's less censorship than blocking initial posting attempts.

Its all bad, but some is less bad than others.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 3]

377

After a couple were posted it was declared off limits for future posts.

Not even that. If somebody at a future date needs information on how to get to Bruce's site, fine, send them to it. All I'm saying is, okay, we all get it. Let's move on.

BTW, if Sailshaw would like to BUY an ad for Bruce's site . . . he can absolutely go for it. We just don't need to advertise it for free like he's currently doing.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[377 20]

Mr. Shutter wrote

Quote

Let's also keep in mind that the jump time vs exactly where the plane was could be inaccurate. ckret gives a time frame of up to 8:15. the plane is getting closer to water. it's pretty obvious that nobody knows the exact spot. this seems to be a major clue needed to understand where he jumped. we can say a 50/50 shot of making it, but the closer you get to large bodies of water the lower the percentage becomes. I realize that the percentage of hitting water is low, but that's back at the 8:11-12 mark on the map. the path could be accurate and the timing could be off. then again, the path could be wrong to some extent too?

With uncertainties in both flight path and exit timing all sorts of things "might" have happened.

The pressure bump, to me, is convincing evidence of Cooper's exit, but not absolute proof.

The T Bar money really throws a wrench into the gearbox. I just can't come up with an explanation that makes sense. Its a curve ball. A swing and a miss.

Just finishing Towsaw's book. Its a good read but doesn't add much to the discussion here. It is amazing how much of his own time and money he spent looking for Cooper's remains.

From a news article:

Quote

Tosaw (pronounced TOO-saw) believes the skyjacker's remains lie somewhere in the river. This month he hired a team of divers to scour a stretch of the river where a small portion of the ransom money was found. It was Tosaw's second trip to the river this summer. He has made the journey often enough to call it a tradition.

"I know guys who go elk hunting every year," said Tosaw, 80, who lives in the Modesto area. "I look for Mr. Cooper. It's my hobby."

It's an expensive hobby, but Tosaw, a bachelor with no children, said he could "afford to have a little fun." He paid the three-man dive team $2,500 a day for four days of searching an area on the Washington side of the river about five miles west of Vancouver. The team used a barge, pushed by a tugboat, as a command center. Tosaw, in jeans and sweatshirt, manned the barge like a captain, overseeing the activity and occasionally offering direction.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[mrshutter45 21]

377

Mr. Shutter wrote

Quote

Let's also keep in mind that the jump time vs exactly where the plane was could be inaccurate. ckret gives a time frame of up to 8:15. the plane is getting closer to water. it's pretty obvious that nobody knows the exact spot. this seems to be a major clue needed to understand where he jumped. we can say a 50/50 shot of making it, but the closer you get to large bodies of water the lower the percentage becomes. I realize that the percentage of hitting water is low, but that's back at the 8:11-12 mark on the map. the path could be accurate and the timing could be off. then again, the path could be wrong to some extent too?

With uncertainties in both flight path and exit timing all sorts of things "might" have happened.

The pressure bump, to me, is convincing evidence of Cooper's exit, but not absolute proof.

The T Bar money really throws a wrench into the gearbox. I just can't come up with an explanation that makes sense. Its a curve ball. A swing and a miss.

Just finishing Towsaw's book. Its a good read but doesn't add much to the discussion here. It is amazing how much of his own time and money he spent looking for Cooper's remains.

From a news article:

***Tosaw (pronounced TOO-saw) believes the skyjacker's remains lie somewhere in the river. This month he hired a team of divers to scour a stretch of the river where a small portion of the ransom money was found. It was Tosaw's second trip to the river this summer. He has made the journey often enough to call it a tradition.

"I know guys who go elk hunting every year," said Tosaw, 80, who lives in the Modesto area. "I look for Mr. Cooper. It's my hobby."

It's an expensive hobby, but Tosaw, a bachelor with no children, said he could "afford to have a little fun." He paid the three-man dive team $2,500 a day for four days of searching an area on the Washington side of the river about five miles west of Vancouver. The team used a barge, pushed by a tugboat, as a command center. Tosaw, in jeans and sweatshirt, manned the barge like a captain, overseeing the activity and occasionally offering direction.

377


Yep, a huge wrench. I read the locked thread the other day from mid point. ckret claims it's possible the jump happened further south than originally thought. this tells me they were never 100% sure of the path, or the timing. if we can possibly put any merit into the path, along with accurate timing, we might have a better understanding of the jump zone.

I'll include some points from the locked thread. including a pic made by you about the sage that I thought was funny

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[377 20]

Knowing that jumpers in freefall can be seen by ATC radars over considerable disrtances (20+ miles) I spent a lot of time pinging former SAGE operators and techs. Bottom line is a jumper would probably not be seen on on the SAGE display due to graphics processing. The jumper echo may very well have been in the raw radar video output but it would not have made it to the screen.

That still leaves the individual FAA ATC radars which did not process echoes the same way that the networked SAGE system did. I have spoken at length with a skydiver who works FAA ATC as his day job. He said he cold see INDIVIDUAL jumpers on his scope and give jump pilots accurate counts of how many jumpers had exited. Guru, a skydiver and jump pilot, confirmed this.

Tuna boat S band radar can see birds 20 miles away. Furno makes special "bird radars" just for this purpose.

Radar tapes are routinely preserved in avaiation accident or incident cases. What happened to the Cooper tapes???

If the raw video was taped and preserved it probably showed Cooper's exit.

Was Rosemary Woods working for the FAA?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[mrshutter45 21]

377

Knowing that jumpers in freefall can be seen by ATC radars over considerable disrtances (20+ miles) I spent a lot of time pinging former SAGE operators and techs. Bottom line is a jumper would probably not be seen on on the SAGE display due to graphics processing. The jumper echo may very well have been in the raw radar video output but it would not have made it to the screen.

That still leaves the individual FAA ATC radars which did not process echoes the same way that the networked SAGE system did. I have spoken at length with a skydiver who works FAA ATC as his day job. He said he cold see INDIVIDUAL jumpers on his scope and give jump pilots accurate counts of how many jumpers had exited. Guru, a skydiver and jump pilot, confirmed this.

Tuna boat S band radar can see birds 20 miles away. Furno makes special "bird radars" just for this purpose.

Radar tapes are routinely preserved in avaiation accident or incident cases. What happened to the Cooper tapes???

If the raw video was taped and preserved it probably showed Cooper's exit.

Was Rosemary Woods working for the FAA?

377

didn't the Sage also use computer punch cards? I'm wondering about the weather if that would have an affect on actually seeing the blip? was it even possible in that time frame? the radar's today are far more advanced than 1971. did McChord have a play by play while this was happening, or did they only monitor the flight? the photo included is the Sage from McChord.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 37]

377

Quade wrote

Quote

Let's be clear here. While some people may have performed similar type jumps, even under the best jump conditions there was still an entire night to survive in a wet forest and lots of people have died from less.

Lets assume he died either on impact or later from injuries or exposure.

Seems very likely that his remains and at least some gear would be discovered. It's not a jungle. The area is traveled year after year by hunters and other recreational users.

If he landed alive there was no need to do a super hiding job on the parachute gear. All he needed to do was conceal it enough so it wouldn't be easily seen before he could complete his escape.

He could have splashed but Georger presented a convincing analysis that showed this ending to be very unlikely.

377

377, Are you sure Tosaw and Anderson (the Flight Engineer) are still alive in 2014?

I haven't seen the Georger analysis you refer to but Tosaw apparently thought/thinks otherwise. Tosaw spent a nice piece of change betting that Cooper ended up in the Columbia River. And I doubt that he seriously supports a Washoughal wash down theory.

Robert99

[377 20]

Mr. Shutter wrote

Quote

didn't the Sage also use computer punch cards? I'm wondering about the weather if that would have an affect on actually seeing the blip? was it even possible in that time frame? the radar's today are far more advanced than 1971. did McChord have a play by play while this was happening, or did they only monitor the flight? the photo included is the Sage from McChord.

Yes on punch cards. But they were not used to record raw radar video.

Yes, rain attenuates and also reflects radar signals. Hard to say what effect it had that night on that target. ATC surveillance radar just gives bearing and range not altitude. Altitude info comes from aircraft transponders. Height finding radar uses nodding antennas for vertical angle scanning. You see them on aircraft carriers, missile tracking facilities etc.

Radar signal processing has advanced hugely since 71, but even 71 vintage X band surveillance radars could paint jumpers, birds and rain cells.

Don't know the details of McChords involvement. If they were controlling the F 106 interceptors then they were deeply involved. If the MA1 system had been working properly the F 106 autopilots could have been controlled by SAGE target data through a microwave data link and they could have been steered to intercept the 727. No surprise it appeared to be inoperative. I worked for the MA 1's mfr. It suffered from reliability problems.

It was a truly amazing system when it worked.

http://www.f-106deltadart.com/sage_system.htm

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[quade 3]

377

Radar tapes are routinely preserved in avaiation accident or incident cases. What happened to the Cooper tapes???

Are you certain that was SOP in 1971 at the location in question? Would the facility have had the technical capability at that time?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Robert99 37]

quade

***Radar tapes are routinely preserved in avaiation accident or incident cases. What happened to the Cooper tapes???

Are you certain that was SOP in 1971 at the location in question? Would the facility have had the technical capability at that time?

The short answer is "yes". The radar tapes routinely involved would be the ATC radar tapes. These would be the tapes normally used in the investigations.

However, in some instances, the FAA has obtained non-ATC tapes from other agencies to help in the investigations. One such case was an accident involving an early 727 that was descending into Chicago at night over Lake Michigan from the east and ended up in the Lake.

Several early 727s were lost due to high descent rates when they slowed down a bit too much. These high descent rates were caused by the T-tail configuration of the aircraft. The FAA was able to obtain information from a military radar that had unique capabilities and it aided their investigation.

Robert99

[quade 3]

I think you've misunderstood the question. I'm not talking in general terms. I'm talking about the specific ATC facility on the night in question.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Robert99 37]

quade

I think you've misunderstood the question. I'm not talking in general terms. I'm talking about the specific ATC facility on the night in question.

Again, the answer should be "yes". Preserving the radar tapes, plus the ATC radio tapes, and the phone conversations between controllers was normal starting very early in the radar age. But radar upgrades were done in the high traffic areas first and then the low traffic areas.

I think the Seattle/Portland area traffic would qualify for an early radar update. And remember these radar updates started in the 1950s or maybe earlier in some areas.

But in any event, the FAA tapes for the hijacking have departed to other locations. While I didn't specifically inquire about the radar (I don't have access to the equipment to read those tapes), I have it on good authority that the other ATC tapes have definitely "left the building".

Robert99

[377 20]

Quote

And if McChord scrambled a couple of Delta Darts to pursue 305...and they were guided by SAGE to the point where the pilots knew they had to do S-turns just to stay behind a reletively slow-flying 727...then it might make sense that McChord knew exactly where that flight was at all times. At least until 305 passed out of their radar range.

The S turn scenario is likely a myth. F 106s could pace a 727, even a slow one. I watched a team of CA ANG F 106s from Fresno do a display at an air show. They did formation flybys at high speeds and at low speeds. No big deal. Stall speed in an F 106 was 107 knots. Cooper's 727 was flying way faster than that.

The Fresno ANG unit converted to F 16s when the 106s were retired. Several pilots later expressed a preference for their old 106s.

Want your own F 106? Just add money.

http://www.f-106deltadart.com/westernair_f-106_sale_pkg.htm

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.