DB Cooper

[testxyz 0]

Quote

What significance are you attaching to this anyway? Not being snarky - just trying to understand the end run here.

Forget what was found at Tena Bar and think about $200,000.000.
All the money.

I envisioned the entire batch of 10,000 (20 dollar) bills randomly mixed and dumped into a kids plastic swimming pool.

A blind folded person is asked to pull out 12 twenty dollar bills one at a time.

The chance of two twenties being pulled within a 14 serial number spread no matter if your master list is alpha-numeric or random is 1 in 119.

The eventual end run would be to understand how this odd (1 in 119) might change by including the money found at Tena's bar.

To more specific, how many bills were identified at the time of the Feb 13, 1980 Oregonian article. There is some visual documentation via pictures to guesstimate. My working number is 12. (more or less)

With the primary interest in the two L55 bills.

Close up of 12 packets....Feb. 13, 1980

[mrshutter45 21]

"I do NOT know what the speed limit was in 1979"

"Duane drove very fast & the speed limit was 85."

just an example....

anyway. how did a traveling life insurance salesman work? I understand commissions. I guess you both held multiple licences in N. Colorado & Wyoming. also licence for S.C. and Georgia? I believe he went back and fourth eastward as well?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

.

it truly amazing watching you build

I simply tell the same things over and over I have told for yrs. Explorations, but NO building.

99.99 % of the time I stick With What I Know! The only facts I do know are what I actually witnessed and/or found proof of. I have NO idea what I was witnessing and my opinions and facts are about ONE person - a man I lived with for 17 yrs! A man whose life I have spent another 18 yrs on top of that exploring! If you think I am building anything - I sure did misjudge you!

If one wants to talk about building a story perhaps we need to discuss your assimulated flight. It just so happens I have more of a PERSONAL connection to the case than others...so I will work with anything thrown at me and explore it - but I will NOT tell any lies or deliberately try to make something what it is not.

No I did NOT look up the speed limits - I used things I remembered from my life and I do not remember a 55 mph rule on a major highway or expressway in the 70's. Surely when there are farm animals and road crossing - that is common sense.


The highways in CO, WY and ID - and lots of places are completely or were completely unobstructive back in the day. Speeding no them WAS NOT a problem....not with radar and a damn good CB.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[mrshutter45 21]

it was common knowledge and big news when the Federal law was made for the 55 mph limit. truckers went nuts. they get better mileage going faster.

my SIMULATION will be on track starting next week. I'm getting a new computer shipped here by 9/4/2013. I7 processor with 12 gigs of memory and a gtx 550 (i think) video card. 1 TB hard drive. I also changed the software. lots of things happened. but little forward motion. I should have nothing holding me back from this
point forward.

I am open to any valid data that could help the project.

sadly you can't see this because of your computer. I can also go into space with the program. I haven't a clue what I'm doing, but it's cool....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1N17yc7pe0

the offer still stands on the computer, you could easily use both. just switch the phone line to and from....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[smokin99 0]

testxyz

Quote

What significance are you attaching to this anyway? Not being snarky - just trying to understand the end run here.

Forget what was found at Tena Bar and think about $200,000.000.
All the money.

I envisioned the entire batch of 10,000 (20 dollar) bills randomly mixed and dumped into a kids plastic swimming pool.

A blind folded person is asked to pull out 12 twenty dollar bills one at a time.

The chance of two twenties being pulled within a 14 serial number spread no matter if your master list is alpha-numeric or random is 1 in 119.

The eventual end run would be to understand how this odd (1 in 119) might change by including the money found at Tena's bar.

To more specific, how many bills were identified at the time of the Feb 13, 1980 Oregonian article. There is some visual documentation via pictures to guesstimate. My working number is 12. (more or less)

With the primary interest in the two L55 bills.

Close up of 12 packets....Feb. 13, 1980

I'm still not sure that your numbers are statistically valid, but lets just say that we don't worry about the fact that the bills could have come from the same stack to begin with since they were both L's, and that the overwhelming majority of the bills were Ls - - where do you get the 12 from?

The 12 packets were from the bundles after they were separated. Is 12 like a magic number?
What if the FBI guy had laid them out in 24 stacks?
What if they were able to peel each apart individually?

10,000 bills might be in the swimming pool, but you can't just pull the number 12 out of the hat. To mean anything at all this has to relate to the actual amount of money - and if you are talking about the money then wouldn't the blind guy have to pull out 290 bills, not 12? So wouldn't that be like 1 in 5, following your steps?
But hey - even saying you got the math right and I forgot everything I learned (which is quite possible - my eyes really do glaze over beyond the basics ... I still don't understand what this would mean in the scheme of things. But that's okay, don't let me ruin your fun. Maybe you're on to something and I'm like the guy at the swimming pool.
edited to fix my math - forgot to clear calculator.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

I think the 12 comes from the amount of stacks on the table with the Ingram's and the FBI. this was after they took the bundles apart and tried to clean them.

how did the bugs or what every it was eat the bills into rounded edges? no square edges anywhere? the bill in the front center has a strange straight cut on it where the corner should be? didn't they say they were going to burn the money?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[smokin99 0]

mrshutter45

it was common knowledge and big news when the Federal law was made for the 55 mph limit. truckers went nuts. they get better mileage going faster.

my SIMULATION will be on track starting next week. I'm getting a new computer shipped here by 9/4/2013. I7 processor with 12 gigs of memory and a gtx 550 (i think) video card. 1 TB hard drive. I also changed the software. lots of things happened. but little forward motion. I should have nothing holding me back from this
point forward.

I am open to any valid data that could help the project.

sadly you can't see this because of your computer. I can also go into space with the program. I haven't a clue what I'm doing, but it's cool....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1N17yc7pe0

the offer still stands on the computer, you could easily use both. just switch the phone line to and from....

Shame you didn't make it back. Now what would be really cool is if you could simulate no gravity while you're flying around out there.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[smokin99 0]

mrshutter45

I think the 12 comes from the amount of stacks on the table with the Ingram's and the FBI. this was after they took the bundles apart and tried to clean them.

how did the bugs or what every it was eat the bills into rounded edges? no square edges anywhere? the bill in the front center has a strange straight cut on it where the corner should be? didn't they say they were going to burn the money?

That's a great question. One of the articles said that using it to start the fire was suggested by the bro / bro-in-law, but Daddy Ingram saved the day. Who knows if the story is legit?

Everything has been guessed at for the holes and the edges. Bugs, diatoms, flare burn, dredge markings, friction, cleaning agents, I could go on and on.
I've always favored the insects, rodents, and birds, myself.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

"Shame you didn't make it back.
Now what would be really cool is if you could simulate no gravity while you're flying around out there."

you have no sense of speed or anything, so I guess it simulates no gravity to an extent. I have no clue about the shuttle. many knobs and buttons and screens lol. I place myself 100 some miles up and a speed of 17,000. from there i'm flying anyway I can to keep it straight. I can't orbit, I only have the North American disc. it stops me. when I go out into space I eat up my virtual memory and crash the software. it's not made to go into deep space. re-entry....not a clue. made it in one time. the rest I just flop around and the program ends. to shallow or quick. don't know.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

smokin99

***I think the 12 comes from the amount of stacks on the table with the Ingram's and the FBI. this was after they took the bundles apart and tried to clean them.

how did the bugs or what every it was eat the bills into rounded edges? no square edges anywhere? the bill in the front center has a strange straight cut on it where the corner should be? didn't they say they were going to burn the money?

That's a great question. One of the articles said that using it to start the fire was suggested by the bro / bro-in-law, but Daddy Ingram saved the day. Who knows if the story is legit?

Everything has been guessed at for the holes and the edges. Bugs, diatoms, flare burn, dredge markings, friction, cleaning agents, I could go on and on.
I've always favored the insects, rodents, and birds, myself.


the holes I can understand, but, it looks like surgical munching lol. most of the bills are equal all the way down
around the edges? just another crazy thought I guess.

I say we pitch in a couple bucks and plant it on the beach and check on it every 1/4 out of a year? 30 or 40 one dollar bills should be enough....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[smokin99 0]

mrshutter45

******I think the 12 comes from the amount of stacks on the table with the Ingram's and the FBI. this was after they took the bundles apart and tried to clean them.

how did the bugs or what every it was eat the bills into rounded edges? no square edges anywhere? the bill in the front center has a strange straight cut on it where the corner should be? didn't they say they were going to burn the money?

That's a great question. One of the articles said that using it to start the fire was suggested by the bro / bro-in-law, but Daddy Ingram saved the day. Who knows if the story is legit?

Everything has been guessed at for the holes and the edges. Bugs, diatoms, flare burn, dredge markings, friction, cleaning agents, I could go on and on.
I've always favored the insects, rodents, and birds, myself.


the holes I can understand, but, it looks like surgical munching lol. most of the bills are equal all the way down
around the edges? just another crazy thought I guess.

I say we pitch in a couple bucks and plant it on the beach and check on it every 1/4 out of a year? 30 or 40 one dollar bills should be enough....

Hey - I've often thought that if someone had started several experiments when this thread first started we'd have quite a few years of data now.
I can see something munching on the edges all the way around - kind of the path of least resistance. We had a guinea pig once that ate around the edges of crackers and lettuce. No twenties though.

Another thought is that the edges were very brittle and came off during cleaning but you'd think that would have been noted somewhere, and would not have been so uniform/surgical.

Just erosion over time also doesn't seem like it would be so "surgical"

But your question about the fire is interesting -- Have you ever tried to burn a stack of papers or a book? It always gets the edges and then the fire eventually goes out leaving the middle intact. Looks very similar to the money. Makes you wonder if they didn't actually try to fire it up before they realized what it was?

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

smokin99

*********I think the 12 comes from the amount of stacks on the table with the Ingram's and the FBI. this was after they took the bundles apart and tried to clean them.

how did the bugs or what every it was eat the bills into rounded edges? no square edges anywhere? the bill in the front center has a strange straight cut on it where the corner should be? didn't they say they were going to burn the money?

That's a great question. One of the articles said that using it to start the fire was suggested by the bro / bro-in-law, but Daddy Ingram saved the day. Who knows if the story is legit?

Everything has been guessed at for the holes and the edges. Bugs, diatoms, flare burn, dredge markings, friction, cleaning agents, I could go on and on.
I've always favored the insects, rodents, and birds, myself.


the holes I can understand, but, it looks like surgical munching lol. most of the bills are equal all the way down
around the edges? just another crazy thought I guess.

I say we pitch in a couple bucks and plant it on the beach and check on it every 1/4 out of a year? 30 or 40 one dollar bills should be enough....

Hey - I've often thought that if someone had started several experiments when this thread first started we'd have quite a few years of data now.
I can see something munching on the edges all the way around - kind of the path of least resistance. We had a guinea pig once that ate around the edges of crackers and lettuce. No twenties though.

Another thought is that the edges were very brittle and came off during cleaning but you'd think that would have been noted somewhere, and would not have been so uniform/surgical.

Just erosion over time also doesn't seem like it would be so "surgical"

But your question about the fire is interesting -- Have you ever tried to burn a stack of papers or a book? It always gets the edges and then the fire eventually goes out leaving the middle intact. Looks very similar to the money. Makes you wonder if they didn't actually try to fire it up before they realized what it was?


it does look like it was burned and then quickly dried. very brittle for being wet a day or so ago? does anyone know if the money was dry when found? how much of the river did they wash off.

we should of packed some cash to go with 99 and Meyer. still a good idea I think.

here is a better look at the money....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

smokin99

*********I think the 12 comes from the amount of stacks on the table with the Ingram's and the FBI. this was after they took the bundles apart and tried to clean them.

how did the bugs or what every it was eat the bills into rounded edges? no square edges anywhere? the bill in the front center has a strange straight cut on it where the corner should be? didn't they say they were going to burn the money?

That's a great question. One of the articles said that using it to start the fire was suggested by the bro / bro-in-law, but Daddy Ingram saved the day. Who knows if the story is legit?

Everything has been guessed at for the holes and the edges. Bugs, diatoms, flare burn, dredge markings, friction, cleaning agents, I could go on and on.
I've always favored the insects, rodents, and birds, myself.


the holes I can understand, but, it looks like surgical munching lol. most of the bills are equal all the way down
around the edges? just another crazy thought I guess.

I say we pitch in a couple bucks and plant it on the beach and check on it every 1/4 out of a year? 30 or 40 one dollar bills should be enough....

Hey - I've often thought that if someone had started several experiments when this thread first started we'd have quite a few years of data now.
I can see something munching on the edges all the way around - kind of the path of least resistance. We had a guinea pig once that ate around the edges of crackers and lettuce. No twenties though.

Another thought is that the edges were very brittle and came off during cleaning but you'd think that would have been noted somewhere, and would not have been so uniform/surgical.

Just erosion over time also doesn't seem like it would be so "surgical"

But your question about the fire is interesting -- Have you ever tried to burn a stack of papers or a book? It always gets the edges and then the fire eventually goes out leaving the middle intact. Looks very similar to the money. Makes you wonder if they didn't actually try to fire it up before they realized what it was?

http://www.ask.com/question/why-are-pebbles-round

[testxyz 0]

Attached is documentation of the first packet R.H. examined to find out this was Cooper's ransom money. An exciting moment for sure.

I'm pretty sure the top bill is the L55 Bill I overlayed.

Image attached......

[smokin99 0]

georger

http://www.ask.com/question/why-are-pebbles-round

I mentioned erosion - I'm just not convinced the end product would be so uniform - but I guess it's possible.

Also wouldn't this process assume an external moving force (water) over a stationary object (rock)? Would the same uniform process be likely on a stationary object in sand? Or if you hold with the washdown theory would the same uniform erosion be likely if the object is being propelled through the water?

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

"I do NOT know what the speed limit was in 1979"

"Duane drove very fast & the speed limit was 85."

just an example....

anyway. how did a traveling life insurance salesman work? I understand commissions. I guess you both held multiple licences in N. Colorado & Wyoming. also licence for S.C. and Georgia? I believe he went back and fourth eastward as well?

Using CO for an example. I held a CO insurance license and did NOT have to take a state test if I remember correctly as I had held a GA insurance license and was tested there, but I had to give up the GA license.

Duane held a GA license also but had to give that up for the CO license and if the states permitted you could have a Non-resident license in other states that are recipitory such as Wy.

When Duane was in GA he held a resident license there and a NON- resident in N.C. Duane always made sure he did NOT have to retest. A lot of the rules have changed since I was last licensed in Florida. in 1988.

I still have all the paperwork on the licensing after he and I were married and the paper trails. None of it is any good anymore - just afraid to throw any of it away.

A non resident was a courtesy thing by most states as one can not draw a line on your business if you live in a small town near the state line. Life Insurance is NOT region specific. One could NOT write for a company nor hold a state license or non-resident license if the company was not register with that state.

We usually held one Active resident license and one ajoining Non resident license in the next state over. Our work was very specific and attached to the mortgages on the houses and placed into the housepayment.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[testxyz 0]

I said...

"The chance of two twenties being pulled within a 14 serial number spread no matter if your master list is alpha-numeric or random is 1 in 119."

Smokin said...

Quote

I'm still not sure that your numbers are statistically valid

My real world numbers so far show..

Out of the 27 serial numbers I have found, the smallest spread is 14 serial numbers....the two L55 serial numbers within the range of 14. Both appearing on 2 of the 12 packets found by Ingram.

The next smallest spread range is 20.........L01 prefix Serial numbers within 20 serial numbers. Percentage difference between 20 and 14 is difference 35%.

27 serial numbers found. Minimum spread is 14 spread....so far.

Of course....odds will change up or down as more serial numbers are gathered.

[testxyz 0]

Quote

Have you ever tried to burn a stack of papers or a book? It always gets the edges and then the fire eventually goes out leaving the middle intact.

Yes, I've done that with magazines.

The edges of paper have the tendacy to fan out when the fire first starts allowing oxygen inbetween the sheets of paper, sustaining the fire awhile. The fire is suffocated by the ashes and lack of oxygen.

[mrshutter45 21]

if you were hoping the bundles were taken apart at one point before the T bar find. this should answer the question. it appears they had the list in 1980. the list has vanished somewhere between 1980-2008.

see attachment.......

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

smokin99

***
http://www.ask.com/question/why-are-pebbles-round

I mentioned erosion - I'm just not convinced the end product would be so uniform - but I guess it's possible.

Also wouldn't this process assume an external moving force (water) over a stationary object (rock)? Would the same uniform process be likely on a stationary object in sand? Or if you hold with the washdown theory would the same uniform erosion be likely if the object is being propelled through the water?

Things with weak-long atomic and molecular bonds tend to be
rounded off (at the corners) quickly, in nature. Corners stick out
and experience accelerated erosion. Water contains particles ...
sand for one thing. Water contains both particulate matter and
bacteria...

Tom determined that the holes in the paper, for example, began
as entry points for colonies of bacteria. See his website.

Paper swells when wet. Corners separate in layered paper
because there is less concentrated mass per area there. That
offers an entry point to corrosion by particles and bacteria ...
the corners go first.

[testxyz 0]

Quote

if you were hoping the bundles were taken apart at one point before the T bar find. this should answer the question. it appears they had the list in 1980. the list has vanished somewhere between 1980-2008.

see attachment.......Pirate

I'm not hoping, just digging to see what's there.

I've seen that form at CitizensSleuth.com (your attachment)

One of the problems, is the story varies so much. Two different
FBI agents say the same thing, suggesting the bundles had random
amounts of money. Tom Kaye says the FBI archive indicates each
bundle had 100 twenties in it.

Tom Kaye says the FBI archive indicates the microfilm is lost or
can't be found. Even though the FBI archive indicates this, does
anybody really believe the money sequence list for the crime of the century is lost?

The only list that can verify the bundle sequence of money.

Like Georger suggest, several entities would have needed that
master list to settle legal matters. Post 1980.

I guess someone in the know with the FBI can make one quick
call and get a Yes or No answer to whether the Cooper money bundle
sequence list is lost or not.

[mrshutter45 21]

testxyz

Quote

if you were hoping the bundles were taken apart at one point before the T bar find. this should answer the question. it appears they had the list in 1980. the list has vanished somewhere between 1980-2008.

see attachment.......Pirate

I'm not hoping, just digging to see what's there.

I've seen that form at CitizensSleuth.com (your attachment)

One of the problems, is the story varies so much. Two different
FBI agents say the same thing, suggesting the bundles had random
amounts of money. Tom Kaye says the FBI archive indicates each
bundle had 100 twenties in it.

Tom Kaye says the FBI archive indicates the microfilm is lost or
can't be found. Even though the FBI archive indicates this, does
anybody really believe the money sequence list for the crime of the century is lost?

The only list that can verify the bundle sequence of money.

Like Georger suggest, several entities would have needed that
master list to settle legal matters. Post 1980.

I guess someone in the know with the FBI can make one quick
call and get a Yes or No answer to whether the Cooper money bundle
sequence list is lost or not.

I wouldn't doubt if someone presented a new bundle to the FBI that the list they have would magically appear. I'm sure they have it.


based on the research done on the money. we know the rubber bands dissolved in less than a year. are we basing the money itself on less than a year with the condition it is in. with the Ingram's washing off a lot of the evidence. how much damage did they do to these bills. many claim the bills could of been in the bag prior to being found. all the more reason to put a bundle out there and watch ourselves?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

we know the rubber bands dissolved in less than a year.


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


G replies-

Thats a funny way of putting it. Dissolve? Not in water they dont.
At least not quickly.

Rubber bands are a little more complex than Tom let's on.

And it's "these" rubber bands ... which have a particular
chemistry. And a number of lifetime options depending on
environment.

Let's just say that at 2:30pm on a Thursday after six months
exposed to the Cooper Effect they magically go "poof"! The Law
of Rubber Band Cooper Extinction. (On Tina Bar as opposed to on
Uranus)

Yes .... its sad.

We all know people who have balls of rubber bands they have
made. I dont see any of those balls going poof after six months!
Huh??? Some of Barber Mike's rubber band balls are thirty years
old!!! Holy shit! Sad!!! Poof!!! ??? Now that we have found
20,000 billion trillion living exceptions to Kaye's "poof in nature
Law" what shall we do? Just ignore Barber Mike's balls sitting
next to his picture window soaking up UV at Mike & Bob's Barber
Shop since 1962?

I guess not all rubber bands are alike, or equal?

Rubber is sad.

Oh! Where does Mike get his rubber bands. Newspapers and his
wife is a librarian. She's the one that orders the rubber bands for
the library from the same damned place Sea First got theirs!
But we will keep that a Ckret!

[mrshutter45 21]

georger

we know the rubber bands dissolved in less than a year.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

G replies-

Thats a funny way of putting it. Dissolve? Not in water they dont.
At least not quickly.

Rubber bands are a little more complex than Tom let's on.

And it's "these" rubber bands ... which have a particular
chemistry. And a number of lifetime options depending on
environment.

Let's just say that at 2:30pm on a Thursday after six months
exposed to the Cooper Effect they magically go "poof"! The Law
of Rubber Band Cooper Extinction. (On Tina Bar as opposed to on
Uranus)




I guess I could of used deterioration, or disintegrate. let's put a bundle out there and see what happens? we can talk about it for a year, or watch it over a year? no more guessing.....another "assimilation" as Jo calls it

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

mrshutter45

*** we know the rubber bands dissolved in less than a year.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

G replies-

Thats a funny way of putting it. Dissolve? Not in water they dont.
At least not quickly.

Rubber bands are a little more complex than Tom let's on.

And it's "these" rubber bands ... which have a particular
chemistry. And a number of lifetime options depending on
environment.

Let's just say that at 2:30pm on a Thursday after six months
exposed to the Cooper Effect they magically go "poof"! The Law
of Rubber Band Cooper Extinction. (On Tina Bar as opposed to on
Uranus)




I guess I could of used deterioration, or disintegrate. let's put a bundle out there and see what happens? we can talk about it for a year, or watch it over a year? no more guessing.....another "assimilation" as Jo calls it

Quote

Better yet, ask Tom where temperature comes into the
"poof in six months" rubber band equation?

And God forbid we shall mention "melt transition" ? Screw chemistry!