georger 197
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georger 197
QuoteQuoteand that is why ...
PMs are closed. Sorry. Absolute necessity.
I just dont have the time for all of them ...
HEY! I haven't tried to PM except for the time you opened it for some communications we worked on together. After that it was closed - I have NOT tried to PM you since you Closed it so MAKE your statement to the appropriate posters - not me.
well somebody has deluged me with dozens of PMs
which arent getting through -
must be Marla's sister -
Quote
The flight test program that Boeing did on the SE Asia 727s undoubtedly included validation of controllability under the conditions that were expected to be enountered during their operational use.
Robert99
The very design of the aircraft might have (should
have?) included that capability right from the start -
selling the 727 to the DOD etc. The people who worked out the design would know ?
Its hard to believe the 727 was produced without
stairs-down-in-flight and the opportunity that gave,
being right on the design board from the start -
The tests pilots would know -
The plane had been in the sky how many yrs before the jump?
Gray matter will not let me remember the introduction date.
How many times were passengers and workers and maintence individuals allowed to use the aft stairs. The DAMN aft stairs was THE SELLING POINT for the smaller airports or did some of you geeky types forget that?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Robert99 37
QuoteRobert99 says:
“As I have stated a number of times before, Cooper was probably a former US Government employee (whether military or civilian) or had worked for a US Government contractor.”
You have been registered since 2009, and said this “a number of times before”, why all the butthurt over something you have studied so closely, for years?
All I did was ask for the source you referenced when you said:
“Anyone seeing the video of static line parachute jumps from the aft stairs of 727s, reportedly made in SE Asia, should note that the stairs were "locked" down.”
I want to meet the qualification of “ANYONE SEEING THE VIDEO”, is that too much to ask regarding YOUR well thought out claim?
This is already iteration three and you have deflected and dodged with the best of those caught being inaccurate. Why not link the video? Why didn’t you do a screenshot of the video for your files? Why can’t you publish the URL without the imbed feature? Why can’t you answer a simple request for a source YOU claim to have used in formulating some facts YOU published to the World Wide Web? I know what people being pissy when they are challenged typically leads to and would be delighted to be proven wrong this time. In fact I would have been happy to have been proven wrong every time. What are to odds of me asking for some verification which is so utterly illusive to the person who created it? Strange.
All I did was ask for the source of the silly claims you made. It's your turn to put up or shut up.
Robert99
Robert99 37
QuoteKnowledge of FBI access to funds (?)
Robert: NWA had a bank account. They could either make a withdrawal or watch the plane explode on the tarmac with all the passengers. Asking for $200,000 was a lot back in 1971, but a big airline could obtain it, and if it was after banking hours, some bank manager was going to get a wake-up call at his house.
Blevins, Why don't you explain how the bank manager would overcome the time lock matter to get into the vault? Some of Duane Weber's more industrious associates would probably be interested.
Robert99
Robert99 37
QuoteStewardess Tina Mucklow has said that the hijacker popped the ripcord on the spare chute, and donned the NB-6 main container like he knew what he was doing. The idea that leaping out the rear of a jet doing 175MPH...and that it was the very first jump the hijacker had ever made...this is a bit of a stretch, IMHO. I think he had jumped before.
Blevins, What is the basis for the above conclusion about Cooper having previous jump experience?
As Amazon and others have previously pointed out, plenty of people made their first jump under far worse conditions during WW2 and a high percentage of them survived.
Robert99
QuoteThe 2012 Ariel Party video is up at YouTube.
It's all good except I will have to adjust the opening screen text later.
Set to Fullscreen, 720p HD, turn up speakers, for best results. Comments have been disabled, for obvious reasons. (*laughs*) If you don't know why, it doesn't matter anyway.
Great job, Robert. Thanks. I loved it.
One suggestion- next time maybe you could have more pix of Christie, especially her dancing!
QuoteQuoteKnowledge of FBI access to funds (?)
Robert: NWA had a bank account. They could either make a withdrawal or watch the plane explode on the tarmac with all the passengers. Asking for $200,000 was a lot back in 1971, but a big airline could obtain it, and if it was after banking hours, some bank manager was going to get a wake-up call at his house.
Blevins, Why don't you explain how the bank manager would overcome the time lock matter to get into the vault? Some of Duane Weber's more industrious associates would probably be interested.
Robert99
Robert99, you are being an ASS.
It is clear the airlines made arrangments for such as this. It was stored in a bank. I expect Himmelsbach's book addressed this as the newspapers also did.
It was trivial of you to pop off a question like that. You knew what he meant.
Blevins mistakenly stated bank account, but that was just a slip of the "tongue" so to speak.
Perhaps we ALL need to attack you with your own Slips. Everyone but you seemed to understand what he meant.
You do the same thing to me and most of your post have slurs directed at Blevin or myself. Don't you think it is time quit NIT PICKING?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
QuoteSomeone said this:
Quote'As I have stated a number of times before, Cooper was probably a former US Government employee (whether military or civilian) or had worked for a US Government contractor...'
Or, he could have been a pissed-off, dirt-poor employee of the airline who used to be a US Army paratrooper...
What is the similarity between those two statements? Easy. They are both theories, not facts.
NOTE he used quotations and asked the question about similarities. Then he followed it with his opinion. HE was not even talking about his book or his subject. He was trying to participate withOUT promoting his book or even his subject.
Give the guy a chance - he has as much reason and interest to be here as you do - as long as he does NOT use the thread to promote his book. That is my opinion. I do NOT dislike Blevins and he has a right to exchange his ideas and talk about a subject. This is or was America the last time I checked.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
377 21
QuoteAs Amazon and others have previously pointed out, plenty of people made their first jump under far worse conditions during WW2 and a high percentage of them survived.
And as Farflung has pointed out, so did a few skyjackers.
Still, I want Cooper to be very chute savvy. Radio wise too. Oh, and having more knowledge about 727 jump capability than anyone at NWA.
It's just no fun to think of Cooper as a lucky Whuffo.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
QuoteRobert 99 asks in part:
'Blevins, Why don't you explain how the bank manager would overcome the time lock matter to get into the vault? Some of Duane Weber's more industrious associates would probably be interested.
Robert99'
Answer: How do you know all the banks in Seattle in 1971 used time-locks?
Blevins go back and read my reply to Robert99. You do NOT have to defend your statement as you do not know the answer to the question any more than I do.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 197
QuoteSomeone said this:
Quote'As I have stated a number of times before, Cooper was probably a former US Government employee (whether military or civilian) or had worked for a US Government contractor...'
Or, he could have been a pissed-off, dirt-poor employee of the airline who used to be a US Army paratrooper...
What is the similarity between those two statements? Easy. They are both theories, not facts.
Easy! The former (his) starts with a 6'-6-2' foot
person. The latter (yours) starts with a 5'8" dwarf
which only by hyper-extension through Dopler
recession as mass approaches infinity at only
Mach .21, is stretched to over 6 feet tall with his
tongue wagging ... known as the Porteous-Blevins
Effect!
In other words: HIS uses facts and math. YOURS
uses science fiction and allegory and Sham Wow.
377 21
Jo wrote
Check frequently Jo. The Bill of Rights has a serious erosion problem.
377
QuoteThis is or was America the last time I checked.
Check frequently Jo. The Bill of Rights has a serious erosion problem.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
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QuoteMeyer Louie wrote
QuoteIf the composite sketches were anywhere close, don't you think someone, somewhere in the Boeing or Northwest Airline ranks would have recognized him?
That's a big IF. Everyone assumes that the sketch was an accurate depiction of DBC. I worked on cases where composite sketches were prepared, witnesses all agreed that the sketch closely resembled the perpetrator, then a guy is arrested, tied to the crime by solid evidence... and he looks VERY different from the sketch. Go figure.
I've seen witnesses get height and weight waaaay off too. Sometimes they even got eye color wrong.
I too wonder why Cooper appeared to take no significant disguise measures. But I've represented defendants who stuck up places they KNEW had cameras and yet they didn't put on a mask. I think Cooper was way smarter than they were. If Ted Braden was DBC he might have figured he'd spend his life in non extraditable exhile and didn't care if he was eventually identified.
Because of my experience with police sketches, I don't assume that the FBI drawings closely resemble Cooper. I've seen too many cases where the drawings were highly inaccurate.
377
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However, 377, I would be interested in what Tina came up with. Tina spent 5 hours with this guy. She was a trained "people" person -- trained to notice, observe, and recall her surroundings. She had to have noticed Cooper's particular features -- she had hours to study them. I'm saying, even if her re-creation of DBC's composite was somewhat close, it should have been enough for someone, somewhere, to recognize him. This may not be the case though -- I hear what you're saying.
Tina Mucklow was probably our best witness, she's the only one who significant time with Cooper. And now she's probably lost forever, thanks to Galen Cook, Roberts Blevins, and Bruce Smith -- who deceived her, surveilled her without her knowledge, disrespected her privacy, and then divulged her exact whereabouts.
MeyerLouie
georger 197
QuoteRobert 99 asks in part:
'Blevins, Why don't you explain how the bank manager would overcome the time lock matter to get into the vault? Some of Duane Weber's more industrious associates would probably be interested.
Robert99'
Answer: How do you know all the banks in Seattle in 1971 used time-locks?
Refer to Ckret's posts - this was answered years ago.
The answer is: READ THE THREAD.
QuoteHowever, 377, I would be interested in what Tina came up with. Tina spent 5 hours with this guy. She was a trained "people" person -- trained to notice, observe, and recall her surroundings. She had to have noticed Cooper's particular features -- she had hours to study them. I'm saying, even if her re-creation of DBC's composite was somewhat close, it should have been enough for someone, somewhere, to recognize him. This may not be the case though -- I hear what you're saying.
MeyerLouie
Tina repeatedly stated that Cooper's hair was a shiny dark - like it had been dyed. She like myself from the day knew when a woman had dyed her hair - it was shinier than the norm and the color was more consistent than the woman's natural hair.
The dyes in the day were OBVIOUS. The FBI and this thread want to ignore this very aspect of the crime. IF Cooper had premature graying hair and his wife dyed it for him or he dyed it himself - it was an excellent way to NOT be identified. I can show you pictures of a man with dyed hair in 1970 and then one in 1972 with it very gray - you would NOT know they were the same person.
I also happen to KNOW from personal experience that hair dye took my curly hair and made it more sleek....not so curly.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 197
I would venture that because of the way Cooper asked for the parachutes, he may have had experience, but probably not for a while, and he wasn't a regular visitor to any dropzone. The choice of dress for him is one of the biggest mysteries, IMHO.
And which "way" did he ask for the chutes that implies experience? Front vs back chutes?
Clothes? To me that implies lunacy vs. extreme
certainty in what he was doing and would survive
the whole experience - quickly. And that may imply
a dropzone near civilisation.
The paucity of his clothes and the lack of any
attempt to disguise himself or his prints may
imply a "minimalist" approach on his part driven by
dead-certain acceptance of the few logical options
which applied to the situation he was in - either
succeeds in an expeditious manner without
complications, or is prepared to face and accept the
alternatives ... that is a profile which the wallowers
KC and Weber do not have !
Look at this crime as a game (theory). The options
once he has taken the plane are rather narrow and
well defined ... the only avenue for escape is to
jump and that implies a narrow choice of
outcomes ...
Sure, idiots get themselves into situations like that
every day but the outcomes have a large probability
of being negative. Cooper's body was never found
nor any other artifacts from the crime except for the
placard and money (and both of those articles can
be easily transported by nature).
If Cooper was an idiot/daredevlil or worse, he may
have survived by accident (Amazon's point). If he
was an idiot who failed there is no proof one would
expect of that outcome.
My responses here are in italics (MeyerLouie):
QuoteML writes:
I checked out the simulation of the flight, and I've talked to a couple of folks. From what I've gathered, it seems that even on a cloudy, rainy, stormy night, you can still make out the city lights -- Vancouver, Battleground, even Camas.
R99 replies:
George Nuttall's book, page 95, quotes Himmelsbach as saying that, "There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights."
_________________________________________________
I have also read and heard otherwise. The simulation indicates otherwise. I haven't read Nuttall's book, I'd like to. I've read that it is not necessary to have a crystal clear view of what's below. In fact, I've read you don't need much of a view at all -- the glow of the city lights below can still be observed through the cloud cover (to what degree -- I'm not certain, the experts would know more about this). Enough visibility to establish bearings and landmarks -- who's to say? Some have researched the weather at that time and say there was sufficient visibility. Nonetheless, I see what you are saying, and your point is certainly valid. The data is conflicting on this point.
ML writes:
__________________________________________________
Why do I say this? Because he was cool as a cucumber -- nerves of steel. He didn't get rattled -- about anything -- at this time. In addition, he didn't seem stressed, even in the least, about the upcoming jump nor about the aft stairs problem.
R99 replies:
Richard Tosaw's book, page 29, states that when Tina told Cooper about the delay in refueling, "He exploded. He yelled and swore that this was impossible - it was a stall and he was going to blow up the plane. During his hysteria, he kept hitting his fist against his hand and in his rage Tina held her breath in fear that he might explode the bomb. He was screaming that refueling a 727 shouldn't take more than 20 minutes and that a frozen nozzle in Seattle was ridiculous. He opened his briefcase and Tina saw the red sticks and battery as he grabbed hold of the wire while he was shouting."
__________________________________________________
But Robert99, that was the only time Cooper went ballistic. He didn't get stressed about the aft stairs problem (and your quote from the book helps to confirm this), nor did he seem anxious about the upcoming jump. He just went about his business at every turn. He lost his cool just that one time -- as you cited -- with the refueling problem. MeyerLouie
_________________________________________________
ML writes:
The pilot said the plane could not take off with the aft stairs down. No problem, he calmly instructed the pilots to go ahead and take off with the aft stairs up -- like it was no big deal.
R99 replies:
From Tosaw, page 28, Cooper was told that it would not be safe for the aircraft to take off with the staircase down. "When Cooper was told this he told Tina that it was safe but that he wasn't going to argue the point and would lower the staircase later."
Among other things, Tina stated that Cooper put on the back pack parachute like he had previous experience doing so.
During the hijacking, Cooper demonstrated that he had general knowledge of the 727. He had specific knowledge about the flap setting, airspeed, and altitude that he specified.
Cooper was also knew that the aft stairs could be lowered in flight. That knowledge was relatively closely held at that time.
Cooper did have some trouble with lowering the stairs. This may mean nothing more than that the control panel for the aft stairs may not have been familiar to him. If the aft stairs are going to be lowered routinely, they would probably have a different control panel with more capabilities.
In addition, the stairs themselves would probably be modified from the commercial airliner version. Anyone seeing the video of static line parachute jumps from the aft stairs of 727s, reportedly made in SE Asia, should note that the stairs were "locked" down. They did not rebound or otherwise move upward between jumpers.
All of the above suggests that Cooper had some experience with or knowledge of the SE Asia 727 operations. As I have stated a number of times before, Cooper was probably a former US Government employee (whether military or civilian) or had worked for a US Government contractor.
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Not a NWA employee or Boeing employee then...ML
__________________________________________________
Robert99
Those particles on the tie may connect to something
specific ... ordinance? ... calls for mass spectroscopy
to try and nail down the sources. The FBI/ATF has
this capability.
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