DB Cooper

[nigel99 143]

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I think i have some shows lined up that are willing to investigate the case and i want to recreate the jump. This is an important part to test if the bag was ripped away upon leaving the aircraft.

Can I volunteer to be the "whuffo" jet jumper for a free jet jump?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[snowmman 3]

I saw Ckret's post about bank bags.

Interestingly, I was perusing the Brinks FBI page, (doesn' everyone read the entire fbi.gov with coffee every morning?) and I "think" a new picture is there (or I missed it before) showing bank bags from the Brinks event.

Only relevant in that it shows tied open necked bank bags. Which is applicable.

An issue came to mind in looking at the two bags in the photo.

How full was the Cooper bag? If it was "very full" then it would be more difficult to get a secure top tie. If it was half full, it'd be easier (see the picture).

I think we had the exact dimensions of the bag before? Or did we? Can someone confirm that? I think we need to know exactly how much extra fabric was loose at the top, after all the money was in there.

Note I'm assuming a "neck" tie as shown in the photo, as opposed to a "fold down the top and secure" tie.

(edit) I added some more money bag photos. Interestingly one has an integrated neck tie mechanism. I'm assuming Cooper's didn't.

[snowmman 3]

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So lets put our heads together and come up with our best guess as to how Cooper tied the bag. Or do you think I have pretty much figured it. if so, no need to put much more into it.

Ckret, since we can't know for sure how Cooper secured the bag, we should focus on the experiment goal. The goal is to get more data on the likelihood of Cooper hitting the ground with the bag, given a variety of attach methods.

We should start with a perceived "worst case" scenario.

I think the idea of a loose bag, only attached by a loop of rope to the harness would be very interesting, since people have said things like it would knock him out, etc. I don't know if you can find a jumper to jump with a loose bag, but I'd be interested in knowing what happens with that. Maybe if they wear a helmet, and can cut it away easily, the risk is okay?

it would also create maximum turbulence/swinging for trying to dislodge the bag from it's wrapped suspension line attach method. Chose any method for that. I would just tell the jumper to do something that he thinks will survive the jet exit.

After seeing the results of that experiment, you can brainstorm a couple more. But start with worst case.

[snowmman 3]

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In regard to the bag and it's trip down the Columbia i think we are focusing on it from the wrong view. It seems as if folks are trying to envision the bag as making this trip on it's own through tributaries out into the Columbia and to Tina's/Tena's Bar. when things come out of tributaries they do so as "snags."

Things collect and eventually have enough mass to be forced out of the tributary. The bag was probably no different, it got caught up in a snag and when the snag became large enough it was pushed out into the Columbia. The bag didn't sink or float by itself, it drifted to Tina's Bar with the snag.

It lands at the beach, the action of the mass hitting land rips the bag, a few bundles fall out, the snag and bag continue on its journey.

The snag/raft theory is good. Although it means the bag would continue on the snag/raft down the Columbia...i.e. a snag makes it more likely for the rest of the bag/money to have been found, I think?

So the theory would have to say why bag or money didn't similarly deposit more bundles anywhere that were findable, on it's trip farther down the Columbia, after it left Tina Bar.

You could say "it did and wasn't found". But then you're really just on the path of a random theory that's no better or worse than any other one.

[snowmman 3]

I think a lot of tests could be done before a jump test, by tieing bags (with money or money substitute) up and tieing them to a steel support sticking out of a car, then driving about 120mph and seeing what happens. Turbulence/chaos won't be the same, but it will be interesting.

It's not a jet exit, but if you see bag loss at those speeds, you know you don't have to do the jet exit.

If you see the bag staying there, no matter what you do, then it's interesting, and proves the need for a jet jump.

You can try lots of loose bag methods.

[snowmman 3]

I've been musing about my experiences with canvas boat covers, and canvas tarps over woodpiles.
I can't get my head around the idea of a canvas money bag lasting 8-1/2 years and providing protection/containerization to money during that period. If it was buried, I would think decomposition would accelerate, (moisture and increased microbial activity from ground contact?) so even if bag had protection from sun/air/water, it doesn't seem to help the 8-1/2 year lifetime problem.

There are also some industry standard texts addressing weathering of materials/textiles. They've mentioned the decrease in tensile strength of canvas with weathering..i.e. bag becomes easier to rip apart over time.

Here's some info from a canvas supplier, suggesting 5 year lifetimes for outdoor canvas, assuming maintenance.

from:
http://www.westerncanvas.com/material.htm
We have found in our 20 years of manufacturing tents and tipis, that tipis manufactured out of Sunforager brand material that are intended for extended use or left up year round can experience accelerated deterioration when exposed to the following:

- intense UV radiation (4000 ft. and higher elevation)
- coastal areas with salt air
- areas of significant air pollution
- areas of high rainfall
- areas with prolonged periods of high humidity.

5oz Untreated Cotton-We offer a heavy weight (15oz) 100% cotton duck. Although the untreated canvas is susceptible to the harmful effects of sun and moisture, it is an inexpensive alternative for Arid to Semi-Arid climates. The cotton duck has a natural water repellency due to the 15oz of thread per square yard and is a durable fabric. Longevity 1-5 years depending upon climate conditions and maintenance.

12.98oz Marine Finish Boatshrunk has two treatments for water repellence and mildew resistance. The 10.10 oz weight and 12.65 oz weight refers to the ounces of thread per square yard of material and we use 36" material in our tents and tipis. Longevity 2-5 years depending upon climate conditions and maintenance.

12.98oz Fire Resistant has the treatments for water repellence and mildew resistance and an additional flame retardant quality which meets the flammability standards of CPAI~84, an industry wide standard. Longevity 2-5 years depending upon climate conditions and maintenance.

[georger 197]

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In regard to the bag and it's trip down the Columbia i think we are focusing on it from the wrong view. It seems as if folks are trying to envision the bag as making this trip on it's own through tributaries out into the Columbia and to Tina's/Tena's Bar. when things come out of tributaries they do so as "snags."

Things collect and eventually have enough mass to be forced out of the tributary. The bag was probably no different, it got caught up in a snag and when the snag became large enough it was pushed out into the Columbia. The bag didn't sink or float by itself, it drifted to Tina's Bar with the snag.

It lands at the beach, the action of the mass hitting land rips the bag, a few bundles fall out, the snag and bag continue on its journey.

REPLY>

You or Sluggo have to declare one or more DZ's to explore possible tributaries or routes of conveyance.

[georger 197]

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Quote

I think i have some shows lined up that are willing to investigate the case and i want to recreate the jump. This is an important part to test if the bag was ripped away upon leaving the aircraft.

Can I volunteer to be the "whuffo" jet jumper for a free jet jump?

REPLY> Body donnations can be made to:
Cztsahan Yahcz, phD MD
Institute of Pathology
University of Yo Momma
Nome, AK 97854

[georger 197]

Two more questions:

i. Are you absolutely sure there is no way Cooper could
have overheard cabin conversations/talk eg. turning his
rear PA on, in order to know where he was based on
cabin conversaations ..... after Tina went up to the cabin?

ii. Which tributary are you focused on?

[georger 197]

REPLY> I do want to point out there was and still is
a railroad which goes right through the Battle Gnd
Orchards, Hockinson, Scotton, & Brush Prairie area
which goes right down to Vancouver and straight over
to Vancouver Lake and over and up right behind Tina
Bar ... and continues up the Columbia.

See map attached . I have marked the rail route
& Tina Bar...

[Mr.Nuke 0]

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Two more questions:
i. Are you absolutely sure there is no way Cooper could
have overheard cabin conversations/talk eg. turning his
rear PA on, in order to know where he was based on
cabin conversaations ..... after Tina went up to the cabin?

Pretty darn sure. A light indicator will go off on the overhead panel. Most aircraft (I can't speak for certain of the 727) also have an auditory indicator to let the cabin crew know of a crew call.

Edited to add: Why would he need to know where he was based on cabin conversations?

[skyjack71 0]

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I think i have some shows lined up that are willing to investigate the case and i want to recreate the jump. This is an important part to test if the bag was ripped away upon leaving the aircraft

.

It will not make one IOTA what anyone else presents because YOU will make it sound like it HAD to be your WAY. What you think and not what anyone else thinks.

Such as your senario of the bag coming down the Washougal - where is your mind - have you not understood any of the past posts that tell you THAT is NOT Possible.
Yet you will make it sound like you want it to sound and how you want the public to percieve this.

Like all of the other things you go on record as saying - such as the fact that you stated that I was informed about the DNA in Feb of 2007 - YOU KNEW that WAS not TRUE. Yet, not one time have you made sure that was retracted.

This is but one example because it personally involved me. There have been many others. If you can not be truely unbiased and open to ALL possibilities then you should not even attemt this. What you do not know about programs like that is this - they film lots of footage (5 or 6 hours) and show 30 mins of it and maybe omit the most important things.

If you do this thing - MAKE SURE IT IS FAIR for every senario - not just what the FBI wants the world to think.

PS: Make sure the jumper has smoke jumping experience if you use a loose hanging bag...but you know that is not where all of the money was. That he removed part of the of the money from the bag in order to secure the bag.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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REPLY> I do want to point out there was and still is
a railroad which goes right through the Battle Gnd
Orchards, Hockinson, Scotton, & Brush Prairie area
which goes right down to Vancouver and straight over
to Vancouver Lake and over and up right behind Tina
Bar ... and continues up the Columbia.

HOW MANY TIMES do I have to scream my story about the tracks and where they went - go back to the first thread - go back to Unsolved Mysteries, FBI - go back to the original information I present in 1996. I have screamed shouted raved and pointed out these track over and over and over.

These track played a very important part in what Duane told me. These tracks used to have parallel tracks running along the area on the river he took me to...the same tracks that you mentioned go right to this spot.

Duane made a point to tell me about those track when we went to the Columbia - I don't know why,
He did say that the trains slowed down there...but the conversation just didn't mean anything to me and time has taken my memories away, but not all of them.

When he pointed out the tracks he aalso pointed to a berm and told me that just over that berm there used to be some nice homes.

You could not see any homes from the point we were at. The tracks separated us from from the berm.
The steep bank going down to the Columbia was on our Southside.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Ckret 0]

I am not focused on any tributary yet, I want a hydrologist to look at the flight path, review the fine work you folks have done, review the hydrological history of the area and see if any possibilities exist.

[n467us 0]

Jo, please refresh my memory on something... what was Duane's actual reason for taking you to WA? I know it has been referred to as a "sentimental journey", was that his exact phrase?

[snowmman 3]

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I am not focused on any tributary yet, I want a hydrologist to look at the flight path, review the fine work you folks have done, review the hydrological history of the area and see if any possibilities exist.

Hi Ckret,
I'm not sure what all your thinking is, but one can pick a simple theory and say "it works"...i.e. money bag disconnects from Cooper, lands on the bank of the Columbia, stays there a while, eventually makes it to Tina Bar. Cooper lands somewhere else successfully.

And then there are lots of other possibilities from there.

How are you going to evaluate whether some alternate theory a hydrologist might provide, is better or worse?

Is the timing for a jump near the banks of the Columbia not workable?

I'm confused about how you could "lead with data" from a hydrologist. Doesn't make sense to me. I must be missing something.

I could believe that a hydrologist might convince you that no water movement theory makes sense. That would help convince you of a money plant story.

Basically, I can't picture what a hydrologist might tell you that will make you say "Aha, that's a good theory and should be used to modify/fine tune other parts of our theory"

[skyjack71 0]

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Jo, please refresh my memory on something... what was Duane's actual reason for taking you to WA? I know it has been referred to as a "sentimental journey", was that his exact phrase?

We were going to Seattle for a managers meeting, but he wanted to take a couple of extra days. He took me to Salt Lake City (I had been there as a young woman) with my family.

He was very familiar with the church - he mentioned he had attended a funeral not to far away at another church - he was comfortable there and he wanted us to make The Duells area before night fall. I got the impression that the Salt Lake area had something to do with his wife with whom he had a child in 1946.

He did not refer to the trip as a Sentimental Journey - it was a song he sang with many bands and at piano bars - I have never heard anyone sing that song the way he could - not even professionals such as Sinatra, Como, Tom Jones and Englebert.
It was a tone and a sound that needed no music - his voice was the music...he always recieved applause and chants of MORE, MORE.

That night he told me that we had a late check out for the next day and that he had something he needed to do (I could sleep in) - he set his clock for 5:30 but did not get up until 6:30.

He was never one to linger after the alarm, but he had a restless night. He did not get back until after check-out.

I will not repeat the story of the things that happened during the rest of that day and for the duration of the trip. I will jump to our turning down the highway in Or. toward Vegas - I thought we were going home, but he informed me that we were going to Tahoe.

I do not know where the money came from for us to go to Tahoe - he did NOT want to go to Reno and basically told me there were reasons he could not go to Reno. He was not welcome in Reno and absolutely refused to take me there. He explained our having extra money by saying the Company gave him a bonus - no there was no bonus.

He was reliving a trip he made many yrs ago 1971 after the hijacking and where he went afterwards and he was NOT alone when he left Wa in 1971. He went to the Modesto area and then to San Francisco - home of the trolley cars and he told me a story about this trip that later allowed me to know the time of the trip - 1971.

The 1971 trip would not end until January with a New Years Celebration in N.Y. Sure had a lot of money for a man with NO job.

I am the one who labled it Sentimental Journey - he told me nothing more than he had somethings to take care of and this is how he explained his absence several times on that trip to WA.

He was very happy in WA after his disappearance early that day in Seattle (his second disappearance). Note: clowning around...unusually cheerful and playful. Beaming is a better description. It was the next day we left for Tahoe.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Ckret 0]

I don't think your missing anything, either its possible or not that the money could get to Tina's Bar by natural means. Using the flight path and several drift possibilities (open high, open low, no opening, money stays him and rots off, money gets torn off upon jumping) my hope is that a point can be determined along the flight path where things line up.

If they dont, then we have to explore other possibilities.

[georger 197]

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I am not focused on any tributary yet, I want a hydrologist to look at the flight path, review the fine work you folks have done, review the hydrological history of the area and see if any possibilities exist.

REPLY> When talking to the hydrologist I would include
the option of a conveyance from straight behind Tina
Bar as well as from the area east to Vancouver Lake,
especially during a wet year if there was one.
Thanks,

[georger 197]

Jo, I have a question for you or anyone who knows
Tina Bar well. ... and another special (funny) pic for
you which I hope you think is funny also ... I happened
on it by accident.

Question is: what is this area behind Tina Bar, from
directly behind the bar clear back to stream and the
railroad tracks? What are these things that look like
cement slabs on a hill? Sand piles? Fields? They look
like hillsides? Describe the terrain behind T Bar if you
will. Photos attached.
Thanks Jo.

George

ps* and the funny photos attached - Fazio's cows!
Snowmman should like that also -

[georger 197]

Snowman, I want you to look at something. First, here
is the Fazio sand quarry Jo was talking about. Look at
its location. It is proximate to where the money was
found! Thoughts - ?

Also, behind and just to the side of the crucial area
at T Bar is what looks like a hill (and cement or sand
piles down the incline?).

And behind flanking everything at T Bar is the stream
and a Railline ... which happens to run all the way back
east to Vancouver Lake, then clear up as a wide open
path right to Battle Ground and the whole DZ area
(on revised flight path by Sluggo).

My thought simply is Cooper comes down the rail line
having bailed soith of Battle Ground, walks the rail line
through Vancouver over to Vancouver Lake and Tina
Bar .... and maybe something happens. His body gets
dumped behind Tina Bar and eventually some money
washes down the incline to Tina Bar ? Its a longshot.

This rail line btw, goes all the ways back up to Tacoma.

[snowmman 3]

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I don't think your missing anything, either its possible or not that the money could get to Tina's Bar by natural means. Using the flight path and several drift possibilities (open high, open low, no opening, money stays him and rots off, money gets torn off upon jumping) my hope is that a point can be determined along the flight path where things line up.

If they dont, then we have to explore other possibilities.

ok got it. Glad to see you're still open minded pending more information.

I think you need to find someone expert in weathering of canvas also? I'm assuming the bank bag was untreated for UV etc like some other canvas. It may have been treated for water repellancy.
I'm no expert, but my reading says that an assumption of canvas bag survival for 8-1/2 years, outdoors, given the possibilities of burial, full submersion, partial submersion, or sitting on land in shade or sun...well, it's not clear we should assume that the bag survives.

We've talked a lot about money condition, even though we're not experts. If our theory requires a bag that stays in one piece we need to have some data that supports that possibility?

[snowmman 3]

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S
is the Fazio sand quarry Jo was talking about. Look at
its location. It is proximate to where the money was
found! Thoughts - ?

You've labelled one sand area. I believe the area S of Tina Bar is also a sand accumulation area. When you zoom in you can tell it's sand that seems to have been leveled by scrapers or other earth moving equipment.

(edit) there's no quarry I'm aware of. I thought all the sand is from dredging (annual)

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Also, behind and just to the side of the crucial area
at T Bar is what looks like a hill (and cement or sand
piles down the incline?).

not sure what you mean. Can you mark it on the map?

Quote

And behind flanking everything at T Bar is the stream
and a Railline ... which happens to run all the way back
east to Vancouver Lake, then clear up as a wide open
path right to Battle Ground and the whole DZ area
(on revised flight path by Sluggo).

I used to hop trains when I was young (actually like 12 years old!) with Marty D. who always had M-80s on July 4th....whenever you see double tracks, there's the possibilty of a side switch they use to let trains pass each other on a single track. Good place to hop a ride. We always grabbed the ladder by the wheels while the train was moving. It was cheating to get on a stopped train!...The scary part was jumping off, since the trains were accelerating..Hey, not much different than a PLF now that I think of it..

If you want an injured/dead Cooper story...then hopping a train, and trying to jump off in the dark while the train is going 50 mph will probably do it.

Train tracks are good to follow. I used to walk between home and another town following the tracks. No one ever saw you. Only scary part was getting stuck on a big high long wooden trestle with a train coming. There was an escape platform, but the railings were missing. Scary standing there looking down 150' with a big train going by!

Yeah, spent a lot of time down by the tracks as a kid...
(did you know if you get "torpedoes" off a caboose, and strap them to the track, they explode when the train runs over them as a warning signal to the train and the engineer will slow/stop he train?...oh I didn't know that either)

There you go, a whole nice little theory about how Duane hopped a ride on a train that night! Like I said, we can manufacture theories left and right..it's pretty easy.

[snowmman 3]

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J
ps* and the funny photos attached - Fazio's cows!
Snowmman should like that also -

good photo, thanks!

It's interesting how we reveal our biases based on the theories we reject or embrace.

It would be way too embarassing for the FBI to ever articulate a theory where the cows ate the bag or the rest of the money. However it's a very plausible theory. More plausible than some of the snag/rip/tear/move-on theories.

But it'll be rejected out of hand, just because it's doesn't have enough dignity (but why does floating have more? Because it needs experts like hydrologists to explain?)

Same thing with rejecting non-natural water paths like stormwater drains.
Hey that reminds me of another story..we used to crawl thru storm water drains as kids. They were our secret caves in suburbia.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

S
is the Fazio sand quarry Jo was talking about. Look at
its location. It is proximate to where the money was
found! Thoughts - ?

You've labelled one sand area. I believe the area S of Tina Bar is also a sand accumulation area. When you zoom in you can tell it's sand that seems to have been leveled by scrapers or other earth moving equipment.

(edit) there's no quarry I'm aware of. I thought all the sand is from dredging (annual)

Quote

Also, behind and just to the side of the crucial area
at T Bar is what looks like a hill (and cement or sand
piles down the incline?).

not sure what you mean. Can you mark it on the map?

Quote

And behind flanking everything at T Bar is the stream
and a Railline ... which happens to run all the way back
east to Vancouver Lake, then clear up as a wide open
path right to Battle Ground and the whole DZ area
(on revised flight path by Sluggo).

I used to hop trains when I was young (actually like 12 years old!) with Marty D. who always had M-80s on July 4th....whenever you see double tracks, there's the possibilty of a side switch they use to let trains pass each other on a single track. Good place to hop a ride. We always grabbed the ladder by the wheels while the train was moving. It was cheating to get on a stopped train!...The scary part was jumping off, since the trains were accelerating..Hey, not much different than a PLF now that I think of it..

If you want an injured/dead Cooper story...then hopping a train, and trying to jump off in the dark while the train is going 50 mph will probably do it.

Train tracks are good to follow. I used to walk between home and another town following the tracks. No one ever saw you. Only scary part was getting stuck on a big high long wooden trestle with a train coming. There was an escape platform, but the railings were missing. Scary standing there looking down 150' with a big train going by!

Yeah, spent a lot of time down by the tracks as a kid...
(did you know if you get "torpedoes" off a caboose, and strap them to the track, they explode when the train runs over them as a warning signal to the train and the engineer will slow/stop he train?...oh I didn't know that either)

There you go, a whole nice little theory about how Duane hopped a ride on a train that night! Like I said, we can manufacture theories left and right..it's pretty easy.

_______________________________________________

REPLY> Ok. Same photo now with ??????? in blue on
what looks like hill area, also added incline line, and
labeled 2nd sand operation below the first. In 1971
there was less development but the tracks were there. there. I retraced the tracks and they go all over the place, Tacoma, Seattle, even Canadian border.

The problem for Cooper using trains is the thugs and
bums which also road the rails. Very unsafe.

I wonder if the Railroads ever reported some body
found that never got connected to the hijacking on or
around the same date.

I hate to bring this up but a sand operation is also
the perfect body disposal device, should one be found.
Instant fish food right down to his atoms.