DB Cooper

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Thanks Snowmman, I knew you would support my theory 100%, thats why I feed you information, oh wait thats Safecrack, no I mean Sluggo, oh hell, I don't know who I mean.

IF ANY OF YOU ARE DEPENDING ON THESE THINGS THAT SNOWMMAN AND GEORGER HAVE POSTED FROM THEIR ON-LINE SEARCH - YOU ARE GOING TO BE DISAPPOINTED.

The Lake River and Lake Vancouver along with Salmon Creek - does not work. AS PER - two individuals who live there and know the river and its surrounding.

Those bodies of water are not as you are theorizing with your maps.

Lake River flows N. and Salmon Creek empties into the River Lake all of which is above Tina's Bar and the water flows NORTH - therefore those avenues are impossible.

was not a flood from 1971 to 1980 that could possibly have allowed any back-flow or over flow or flooding of these area that could deposit anything on Tena's Bar...Besides the currents would have carried any debri North of those location - no back flow.

cannot make deposits at Tena's Bar.

None of the areas can make any deposits on Tena's Bar.

Lake River or River Lake is a peaceful and popular boating area.

I will have all of this information when I am in WA. The locals have made it very emphatic that your "theory" could not be possible.

If the money did end up in Salmon Creek it would have come out above Tina's bar where the other river empties into the Columbia. It could not get to Tina's Bar from Salmon Creek.

Obviously you guys have NEVER been to that area of WA and what you are getting off of the computer sites - you are reading what you want it to be...but it is NOT POSSIBLE.

Before making such claims and confusing the house or the guest or the public in anyway so ever - you need to go to WA and talk to the people who have the same knowledge and capabililties that you all have - they will SHOW you how - what you are " theorizing" cannot be POSSIBLE.


Oh! Snowmman there has been arguments before about the state of the money and that the damage had to have been done by water and air to make mold and mildew occur. Submerged money does not mold or mildew.

Say what you wish - but money that has been submerged in WATER for 7 yrs will NOT have the kind of damage you are seeing.

The money had to have had stages of wet and moisture and heat in a closed container..this left the money in a fragil condition (with mold and mildew damage) so when it was retrived and dumped into the river - the deterioration you are seeing would have happened rapidly with the current and the water damage that you are seeing on the bills.

5 gallon containers where used for yrs prior to 1971 - farm feed for one, paint, tar and other chemicals used for highways and by the county. I am sure someone else can add to this list.

Plastic bags like we buy fertiziler in now came in other kinds of containers because of the petroleum needed to make the bag and the quality of the bag was not sufficient to hold these things - so buckets that were re-usable was very popular.

I believe the above statements are the best I can do from 2 phone conversations with Locals. No, one of them WAS NOT Himmelsbach - he doesn't really know that much about these things.

REPLY> Just to be clear, I am not theorising anything.
But I am close to one but by a different route than yours. I can only work with what I have to work with,
with some old fashioned "horse sense" thrown in for good measure.

Your comments above are well taken and all accurate
from what I know as of this minute. Im glad you made
your calls. (Very happy about that!). You confirm everything I have suspected, and more... please thank
your local friends there. It is invaluable help, for me at
least.

Have a nice Fourth Jo. NASA Infra Red scan of the
Vancouver watershed attached -

smile! javascript: addTag(';)')
javascript: addTag(';)')


George.

PS* I think we are going to be talking about Scholl's airport here very soon. What goes UP, must come down.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Lake River flows N.

Do you have a name for who told you that?

What you're saying doesn't make sense to me, Jo. I'm not looking at any maps when I try to find out the flow behaviors of Lake River.

I have already quoted a Clark County employee, Ron Wierenga, on the bidirectional flow of Lake River, which is seasonal. I had quoted the specific months it reverses, based on this County public works guy's powerpoint.


Also note that the flushing channel was created at Vancouver Lake, in '79-'81. I don't believe that affected the Lake River behavior though. But we are interested in pre-flushing-channel behavior, to be absolutely certain.

If you prefer "locals" as somehow being more informed, then I'll quote the Rosemere Neighborhood Association, which lobbied about flushing channel issues at Vancouver Lake.

This organization has filed lawsuits against the city on Environmental matters, so can be considered informed, I think.

A press release where they were complaining about stuff:
http://www.rosemerena.org/release.php?page=flushing

"There were a number of design flaws with the implementation of the flushing channel:

1) Engineers did not account for the backflow action of Salmon Creek as it reversed course and flowed back into Vancouver Lake, causing additional contamination from other creeks. The Backflushing of Salmon Creek was never factored into the hydrological assessment regarding the workings of the flushing channel, despite the fact that Lewis (of the Lewis and Clark team) recorded a 30"-36" tidal influence in Vancouver Lake due to backflow from Salmon Creek.

Lake River, another tributary of Vancouver Lake, can also reverse flow in this same manner. As a result of the backflow, Vancouver Lake becomes the depository for contaminants from all of the following: Lake River, Whipple Creek, Flume Creek, Salmon Creek, and Gee Creek. Lake River then flows into the Columbia River near Bachelor Island."


In addition, this url
http://www.cityofvancouver.us/PublicWorks/vancouverlake/Meetings/VLWP031605Meeting.pdf
on page 4 has the minutes where Ron presented a Vancouver Lake watershed report to a 3/18/06 meeting. Ron apparently showed a diagram from a 1971 WSU report that showed hydrology prior to the flushing channel. So I looked for this 1971 info in the powerpoint we have from Ron.

The minutes on page 5 also have the testimony from Ron at that meeting about Lake River's seasonal flow reversal.

I have attached the graphic from page 18 of Ron's report, where he showed a picture from the 1971 Bhagat and Orsborn WSU report. It shows bidirectional arrows on Lake River. ("B" in the graphic). This is before the flushing channel was implemented in '79-'81.

I have the exact reference for the Bhagat and Orsborn 1971 paper here. Ron probably has a copy.

Bhagat, S. K., and Orsborn, J. F., 1971, Water quantity and quality studies of Vancouver Lake, Washington: Washington State University Publication, Pullman, Washington

Bhagat also did a 1968 paper at WSU that might have some interesting stuff also:
Hydroclimatic Studies of Vancouver Lake. 1968. S. Bhagat and W. Funk


Two other questions Jo:
You initially said "plastic" paint bucket. Your recent post seems to hedge that a bit. Why did you say plastic paint bucket before? If you said it before, why hedge now?

Also: you mentioned highway 17 in WA before when you were talking about maps and atlases. Can you clarify why you were on highway 17, why you remember that, and why you remember Duane talking about missing a turn? That sounds totally bizarre to me, to remember that minor a detail. And I'm curious about 17.

[snowmman 3]

Okay, so the IR map shows that Vancouver Lake has warm water, compared to the Columbia.

Are you just testing our sleuthiness or ???

confirmed by this report:
"Vancouver Lake is very warm and does not exhibit widespread oxygen depletion." (page 5)
Surface temperatures in summer of 77 degrees. Talks about bluegreen algae growth.


Volunteer Monitoring Report Summary from 2004
http://www.clark.wa.gov/water-resources/documents/Monitoring/volmon/VanLake%20data%20summary%202004.pdf

This is another nice report. Page 3 confirms the bidirectional flow of Lake River also.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Two other questions Jo:

You initially said "plastic" paint bucket. Your recent post seems to hedge that a bit. Why did you say plastic paint bucket before? If you said it before, why hedge now?

Who is hedging? I said 5 gal. paint buckets - I don't care if they are plastic, metal or papermache - just the fact that they are 5 Gal. buckets. I am not trying to "hedge" anything and I really don't know what that means.

I might not say exactly what I am trying to say. I am sure that if you go back to all of the forums and the materials I sent to the FBI you will find I said 5 gal bucket - saying plastic wasn't meant to be set in concrete.

I did NOT examine the buckets in that shed to see what they were made of. Sorry - I am not a geek just a woman trying to get the truth told.... That was real picky just lilke an FBI agent. Just like they are known to interogate suspects.

Are you taking a on-line course from the FBI thru CKRET? Sure made me feel like it...that is his tactics,

Also note the dates on the backflow channels - I suspect that the person you are being fed this information by is none other than DBCoopercatcher but you know him by another name - he claimed to be an engineer at one time. This is the man who said that Mayfield was Cooper. Haven't heard much about him lately but you can bet he is out there plugging away.

I will ask my source about this back flow channel and the reversing of the flow. The way you have explained it is different than my laymans way of telling him what was being said. I will talk to him again in a few days, but I am not going to call him again this weekend.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Two other questions Jo:

Also: you mentioned highway 17 in WA before when you were talking about maps and atlases. Can you clarify why you were on highway 17, why you remember that, and why you remember Duane talking about missing a turn? That sounds totally bizarre to me, to remember that minor a detail. And I'm curious about 17.

It is bizarre to anyone who has never met me or does not know me. I did not know the name of the highway just that it was the Road on the North side of the Columbia and that we crossed over a dam and we were high and I could see lots of boats - Duane thought it was heaven, but in my travels I had seen things I thought more of and was not so impressed.

By the way it is Hwy 14 not 17. As a child and all of the yrs growing up my father took us on 2 to 4 wk vacations every summer and during Christmas we went to FL.
Daddy felt the best education was by seeing and feeling - and travel was his way of providing us with the experiences he felt valuable.

We knew to take everything in - because he would ask us about it later. When we got home and back to school we wrote and told of our travels - so you can say it was bred into me...he was the first farmer to bring white faced angus to the state of Ky. I remember his seeing the cows for the first time and his statement about them on a one of our trips. Later he would go and buy a few of the cows and he had the first White faced Black angus herd in Ky in the 50's.

I remember almost everything about that part of the trip even when Duane tried to trip me up because he realized he said something that might reveal his secret. He did not go about the rest of the trip from that point in a logical manner - he was doubling back.

I remember that the highway became wider with more lanes just before he said that. He thought he had missed his turn and I was reaching for the atlas. Before I could find it on the atlas or at the same time he said "There it is".

I remember almost every turn we made and you know I found those things after the TV crew left - they had taken me to places that did not fit the dsecription of where I was - I kept telling them it was wrong - and they went very fast.

I spent an extra day on my own and found the places I was looking for - everything I had repeatedly over and over and over had told the FBI and Himmelsbach and anyone who would listen. I found them even after Jerry Thomas who is supposed to be the expert told me that nothing existed that fit that description in that area. Yet it was all there right down to the pastures and the fences and the Washougal being on my left. He and others had told me that was NOT possible. I found my way and that is all I care about. I proved Jerry was wrong and I have only talked to him once since then.

I did talk to him one time after I was out there and he told me he would check the area out, but I never heard from him again and he is very hard to get hold of.

He didn't have a phone and you had to leave a message for him to call you. Himmelsbach told me he hears from him every once in awhile.

Yes, my memory about somethings was bred into me. I could walk and ride (by horse-back the hills and knobs (some would call them mountains) of Casey County Ky. --- I alway got back to my Grandparents home without getting lost. Just chalk it up to the way I was raised - my brother is better than I am in recall.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Get on a plane and go to Wa and go to Tena's bar.

When you get there you will see that it is impossible to get debris from Salmon Creek and River lake by the route you are indicating. There is lots of land there and the one house that I saw. The water would have to go over hill and dale and flood the Fazio Farm house that was there in 2001 and sat many feet above the river level to put debris on Tena's Bar.

Do you really know how much land is between the point where the creek feeds into River Lake and Tena's Bar - that was high dry land - pastures and fences in 2001 and I expect it is today...I did not even see River Lake - it was far away from Tena's Bar. The Fazio's would know if all of their land and home flooded...come on.

Go to WA and then make these posts otherwise change gears. Lets get back to the DZ - this is a total waste of time...because you are going to find out you are wrong.

I will still check on this reverse flow you are talking about but it will not explain how the money got on Tena's Bar from that location.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Did anyone see the movie about the Zodiac killer? I can see the basis for a similar one here. That movie was all about painstaking research and not much action.

Another similarity to the Zodiac case is that it was known for throwing up many suspects who could all be made to 'match' the profile. There was a term used for this in the Zodiac context but I can't remember what it was. fyi http://www.zodiackiller.com/Suspects.html

OK... begging the forum's indulgence, I can't really face going through 17 pages of posts since I was away... were there any significant developments?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

Quote

Quote

Did anyone see the movie about the Zodiac killer? I can see the basis for a similar one here. That movie was all about painstaking research and not much action.

Another similarity to the Zodiac case is that it was known for throwing up many suspects who could all be made to 'match' the profile. There was a term used for this in the Zodiac context but I can't remember what it was. fyi http://www.zodiackiller.com/Suspects.html

OK... begging the forum's indulgence, I can't really face going through 17 pages of posts since I was away... were there any significant developments?

Orange1,

No, nothing major since you were gone. That's not to downplay the quality of the work done in your absence, it's been top notch... but the forum has not really solved any substantial mysteries while you were away.

Welcome back!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Ok, we have the 1971 flight path map, and somehow Slugggo decided (maybe with input from Ckret) that the little red x marks under the pencilled path, were radar location marks.

Sluggo said something about non-labelled x's being 'estimated" which I still don't follow. The x's are apparently always 1 minute apart. I don't see how they could be estimated locations if the flight path is based on them, and I can't see how the times are estimated, since there are always 1 minute apart.

So something is odd in our information there.

Here's what's more odd:

I was musing about who started the stories about the flight path potentially being east or west of the original estimate. This was Himmelsbach right? after the money find.

Now Himmelsbach had access to the whole secret box of FBI info. He had all the info we don't have.

Yet he's willing to toss the flight path and say it might be wrong.

Now if H. is willing to toss it, what does that mean about it's validity?

Or, is it valid, and the fact that H. was willing to toss it, says something about H. or ???

Basically, nothing about the flight path, or the history of its information even up to today, makes any sense.

I hereby invoke the "Chewbacca defense" which I'm sure 377 has used successfully before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

"I think I have some shows lined up that are willing to investigate the case and i want to recreate the jump. This is an important part to test if the bag was ripped away upon leaving the aircraft. "

I expect you will bias the show to present this in a way that will support your "theory" rather than allow it to be a "honest" representation with all factors taken into perspective.

You will "force" the landing zone to be presented in the area that most lilkely would support your eagerness to dismiss suspects that the FBI has not and do not want to admit might be or are "Cooper".

I dare you to do this above board and that will entail your letting the flight information speak for itself without YOUR interpretations which are what you think and not always fact.

Personal opinions of you or the FBI should not be involved. There is the original fight information and the currently being revised fight information. The one person who should speak is the Co-pilot as he is the only one left alive that can interpret anything that may or may not have happened or was said.

He might also be able to provide to those determining the possible flight paths - something so insignificant that he didn't think about it at that time.

As you have presented yourself in this forum you are not consistent and "your" information is not consistent. You put too many of your 'theories" into play rather than relying on fact.

You still owe me an apology regarding how you discredited me on national TV by saying I had known about the DNA since Feb of 2007 and not in Late Oct when you called me just before going public about the DNA. Mistakes like that should NOT be made, plus you do not really have anything that will dismiss Duane Weber as a suspect and I will prove that in OCT.

I am going to do what the FBI has not done - get answers to my questions. It would be decent of you if you have any of these answers to provide them to me, but not in the forum as you provided Duane's criminal record to me. At least you apologized for that error in judgement....but, I felt it was intentional.

Sorry Guys. but these things need to be said - this needs to be fair (a re-inactment) if it is to be done. The only way to be sure it is done fair is to knock heads with CKret now and not wait until he gets on national TV and makes more blunders that damage and emotionally hurt others by making errors.., perhaps unintentionally.

NOT making corrections of such statements is not what one expects of those who are here to protect us and keep us from harm. The FBI is accountable for what its agent say and do.

I am sorry to have to come down on you this way and I am sure I will be reprimanded by others in the forum, but it needs to be said.
Others have come down on me - and I try to learn by my errors and by experience.

You represent as an FBI agent what this country stands for - that needs to be foremost accuracy, honesty and the realization that personal opinions do not play a part in your duties as an FBI agent.

What is the expression "First do no harm". Leave the personal opinions at home that day and you will do just fine. Do not answer questions that are not appropriate and never guess at an answer. You are not a hydrologist, a pilot, or engineer - leave that part to the experts.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

What is the Chewbacca defense? Tell me more.

I've always thought we should trust flight artifacts on the ground to determine flt path, eg placard, money and possibly even that lone shoe allegedly found during the search by Army soldiers. True, we only have two data points and the money may have moved a bit, but if the flight plots in the FBI files do not correlate with the finds on the ground then chuck the flight paths or at least don't treat them as highly accurate.

I once made a hasty jump with street shoes and street clothes, an after work quick trip to the DZ lark. They shoes were slip ons and fit tight, but one blew off. What kind of shoes was Cooper wearing?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

You said the new information is out - where? Has Sluggo posted the flight path he was working on?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

Quote

What is the Chewbacca defense? Tell me more.

oh geez. You just lost any chance at me having you on retainer!

You can read it at the wikipedia url above, but you really have to listen to it to get the full effect:

http://www.dylankinney.com/sounds/chewbaccadefense.wav

Johnny Cochran would be proud!

[snowmman 3]

Quote

What is the Chewbacca defense? Tell me more.

I've always thought we should trust flight artifacts on the ground to determine flt path, eg placard, money and possibly even that lone shoe allegedly found during the search by Army soldiers. True, we only have two data points and the money may have moved a bit, but if the flight plots in the FBI files do not correlate with the finds on the ground then chuck the flight paths or at least don't treat them as highly accurate.

I once made a hasty jump with street shoes and street clothes, an after work quick trip to the DZ lark. They shoes were slip ons and fit tight, but one blew off. What kind of shoes was Cooper wearing?

377

Yes 377 that's an intelligent way to handle the data.
But it doesn't answer the question of why H. would think differently and speculate about alternate flight paths.

It wasn't amateur sleuths that introduced the idea of alternate flight paths. It was H.

Or am I wrong? I go along with your thinking.. I just can't understand how alternate flight paths got introduced into the mythology.

I've been reviewing as many mythologies as I can, trying to understand how they got introduced, or why they weren't corrected. It doesn't make sense to me. It's not just about blaming the press, I think.

[377 21]

That wav file makes Johnny Cochran sound like a minstrel clown. Nothing could be further from the truth. Some of his OJ closing argument antics sounded a bit silly, but they worked. Johnny was no clown, believe me. I saw Johnny Cochran in court back in the old days when he was working for civil servant wages as an asst. DA in LA. He was an awesome prosecutor. Meticulous, articulate and absolutely relentless. Good thing for OJ that Johnny had gone to the more lucrative defense side by the time OJ was charged. If Johnny had been prosecuting OJ he would have gone down. For sure.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

That wav file makes Johnny Cochran sound like a minstrel clown. Nothing coiuld be further from the truth. Some of his OJ closing argument antics sounded a bit silly, but they worked. Johnny was no clown, believe me. I saw Johnny Cochran in court back in the old days when he was working for civil servant wages as an asst. DA in LA. He was an awesome prosecutor. Meticulous, articulate and absolutely relentless. Good thing for OJ that Johnny had gone to the more lucrative defense side by the time OJ was charged. If Johnny had been prosecuting OJ he would have gone down. For sure.

377

hmm...just like a lawyer to argue about alternate realities.

The only things that matter are what really happens or happened.

What-if's don't matter, because they didn't happen.

[377 21]

OK then, what happened to Cooper? Seems like everyone, you and I included, has been doing a lot of "what if" stuff here.

No worries, this is entertainment, not a life or death professional investigation.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

OK then, what happened to Cooper? Seems like everyone, you and I included, has been doing a lot of "what if" stuff here.

No worries, this is entertainment, not a life or death professional investigation.

You do know the Chewbacca defense!
You just invoked the second stage of it, i.e. pulling a monkey out of your pocket and saying
"Here, look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey!" causing a juror's head to explode.

You are good!

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I expect you will bias the show to present this in a way that will support your "theory" rather than allow it to be a "honest" representation with all factors taken into perspective.
....

As you have presented yourself in this forum you are not consistent and "your" information is not consistent. You put too many of your 'theories" into play rather than relying on fact.

.......... plus you do not really have anything that will dismiss Duane Weber as a suspect and I will prove that in OCT.

What is the expression "First do no harm". Leave the personal opinions at home that day and you will do just fine. Do not answer questions that are not appropriate and never guess at an answer. You are not a hydrologist, a pilot, or engineer - leave that part to the experts.

jeeeeeeeeez louise..... apart from the clear venom, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!

Jo, I really, really look forward to this PROOF you say you will present in Oct.

In the meanwhile, ckret continues to astound most of us with his patience.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Ckret 0]

Snowmman,

The money find changed the flight path, not (as you call him) Agent H. Each time a piece of information or evidence surfaces that may point in a different direction you must take a look at from a fresh perspective. Hopefully it completes your investigattive theory, if not you have to look at the facts with the new info added in and see where it takes you.

Welcome back Orange

Quote

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snowmman,

The money find changed the flight path, not (as you call him) Agent H. Each time a piece of information or evidence surfaces that may point in a different direction you must take a look at from a fresh perspective. Hopefully it completes your investigattive theory, if not you have to look at the facts with the new info added in and see where it takes you.

Ckret. I really do want to understand. The money find has not changed our flight path has it? I'm assuming the flight path is the '71 map, which is unaffected by the money find.

The only thing we've discussed is changing the jump point, due to oscillations/pressure bump theorizing and testimony about Portland suburb visibility.

There's nothing about the money find that should change the flight path? I don't think we have? Or have we?

Remember I still half support a money plant theory, so that the money has nothing to do with flight path.

I still don't understand why we have a good flight path or not. I guess I don't understand the source of the '71 flight path map data, and it's reliability.

[Mr.Nuke 0]

Quote

Ckret. I really do want to understand. The money find has not changed our flight path has it? I'm assuming the flight path is the '71 map, which is unaffected by the money find.


There's nothing about the money find that should change the flight path? I don't think we have? Or have we?

That depends on who you are. The money find obviously through the FBI's previous theory of a Lake Merwin area jump out. Combined with the hydrology data pointing to a place like Washougal, and Captain Scott paying Himmelsbach a visit at his retirement party, they are apparently willing to move it around a bit.

Quote

I still don't understand why we have a good flight path or not. I guess I don't understand the source of the '71 flight path map data, and it's reliability.

The map data certainly seems plausible for a hand flown flight. We still don't know the Radar source, anything the detail of the data, or how the data was transferred to that map.


An aside for Crket: How much detail do you have about the location where the placard was found? In his book, Himmelsbach says 13 miles east of Castle Rock, but after reading the book I'm not sure I trust what he says in it. The placard location is the best piece of information as to where the plane was.

[ltdiver 3]

Quote

Jo, I really, really look forward to this PROOF you say you will present in Oct.

Let's Bold that word. It needs to be tangible proof. Something that you can put your hands on and puts her husband in the plane. Undeniably. Not hear-say. If a criminal is convicted of a crime (for let's not forget that's what this is, a crime) there needs to be proof that removes all doubt. Otherwise we're left with just 'what-ifs' again. And you can't convict on that.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Ckret 0]

Mr Nuke,

From reading the reports in the file the placard was found in this general area, I have not located the Sheriff's Office report on the matter so I don't have the exact location. Keep in mind the airstairs where released just a few minutes out of Seatac, so they would have been open about 20 degrees the whole flight.

[Ckret 0]

Reasonable doubt, proof beyond reasonable doubt. For some the sun will not rise in the morning. Reasonably you can state if your in good condition and not going skydiving you most likely will see the sunrise in the morning. Then there are those times when a tree falls on your house and hits you while your sitting on the couch watching "Point Break" for the 300 time. You can't remove all doubt.