ltdiver 3
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ltdiver 3
Ever hear of a 'latent reagent'? I'm sure Ckret has.
Perhaps the bills had this impregnated in them.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4226194.html
Makes sense with the purple staining. The cow's ammonia caused the reaction which produced the purple staining to appear.
"However, the latent color reagent remains intimately adhered to the stolen goods and clothing and can later be chemically developed to quickly produce a prominent color reaction on the surface of the stolen article. A developing solution containing as an active ingredient an organic primary or secondary amine, an amino acid, an ammonium salt or ammonia. Until the developing solution is applied, the latent color reagent is not noticeable, nor can it be washed or dusted off. Ninhydrin, for example, adheres particularly well to clothing and paper goods, such as money, and is merely spread more effectively when dusted or brushed. Washing with a water solution does not remove the ninhydrin and, instead, slowly activates the ninhydrin to produce a colored complex which stains the contacted article upon drying. After application of the developing solution, the resulting colored ninhydrin complex forms an indelible stain on clothing and paper goods which cannot be removed. "
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
Perhaps the bills had this impregnated in them.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4226194.html
Makes sense with the purple staining. The cow's ammonia caused the reaction which produced the purple staining to appear.
"However, the latent color reagent remains intimately adhered to the stolen goods and clothing and can later be chemically developed to quickly produce a prominent color reaction on the surface of the stolen article. A developing solution containing as an active ingredient an organic primary or secondary amine, an amino acid, an ammonium salt or ammonia. Until the developing solution is applied, the latent color reagent is not noticeable, nor can it be washed or dusted off. Ninhydrin, for example, adheres particularly well to clothing and paper goods, such as money, and is merely spread more effectively when dusted or brushed. Washing with a water solution does not remove the ninhydrin and, instead, slowly activates the ninhydrin to produce a colored complex which stains the contacted article upon drying. After application of the developing solution, the resulting colored ninhydrin complex forms an indelible stain on clothing and paper goods which cannot be removed. "
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
snowmman 3
QuoteApologies if this article has already been linked in this thread, but I found this news new to me:
Seems that they've found more serial numbers on the bills that were stuck together. They pieced together the fragments that they found and were able to identify almost 3 dozen more bills.
Don't know the date of the 'discovery' as the article is not dated.
http://www.pcgscurrency.com/dbcooperserials.html
ltdiver
good find ltdiver
I thought this sentence was interesting
"In some cases, portions of as many as four notes were stuck together due to their apparent long exposure to water and various weather conditions. "
I mean, they're speculating about the long exposure, but hey, they're touching the bills and we're not..so maybe the difficulty in separating them does give us some hints as too how long they were out in the water/weather.
Note at least they use the caveat "apparent" ...so even they're not sure they were out there for 7-1/2 years, I guess?
They also mention sand
“One of the partially crumpled notes we closely examined still had grains of sand embedded in it from the Columbia River shoreline where Brian Ingram found the cash near Vancouver, Washington in 1980,” said Laura A. Kessler, PCGS Currency Vice President."
ltdiver 3
Quote"In some cases, portions of as many as four notes were stuck together due to their apparent long exposure to water and various weather conditions. "
Yeah, that sentence stood out to me as well. If the fragments were so adherent that they didn't reveal themselves to handling before...
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
snowmman 3
ok this is for georger.
I thought he was kind of prodding things this way.
I'm wondering why he didn't call it out..feel like he's setting me up :)
If you like the idea of flooding and getting across the Shilapoo Lake/pasture/farmland area from the Lake River area, to Tina Bar, then the obvious tributary is Salmon Creek, which is listed as being part of the drainage basin for Vancouver Lake.
The interesting thing about Salmon Creek is it provides a path from the Brush Prairie and Battleground area.
(see attached, then consult your favorite map)
That Vancouver Lake hydrology presentation quotes 100,000 acre-ft of water per year from Salmon Creek, which is quite a lot.
I attached the watershed detail from that powerpoint.
I think a hydrologist might point here, if we said we wanted the money bag to fall off around Battleground/Brush Prairie, and make it to Tina Bar, with the low velocity water flow that's dear to georger's heart. And take 7-1/2 years to do it. ..i.e. need high water levels.
(edit) added another jpg that shows the bigger watershed picture.
(edit) taken from http://www.cityofvancouver.us/PublicWorks/vancouverlake/MapsMaterials/ClarkCountyVLWP03162005.pdf
which has been posted before
I thought he was kind of prodding things this way.
I'm wondering why he didn't call it out..feel like he's setting me up :)
If you like the idea of flooding and getting across the Shilapoo Lake/pasture/farmland area from the Lake River area, to Tina Bar, then the obvious tributary is Salmon Creek, which is listed as being part of the drainage basin for Vancouver Lake.
The interesting thing about Salmon Creek is it provides a path from the Brush Prairie and Battleground area.
(see attached, then consult your favorite map)
That Vancouver Lake hydrology presentation quotes 100,000 acre-ft of water per year from Salmon Creek, which is quite a lot.
I attached the watershed detail from that powerpoint.
I think a hydrologist might point here, if we said we wanted the money bag to fall off around Battleground/Brush Prairie, and make it to Tina Bar, with the low velocity water flow that's dear to georger's heart. And take 7-1/2 years to do it. ..i.e. need high water levels.
(edit) added another jpg that shows the bigger watershed picture.
(edit) taken from http://www.cityofvancouver.us/PublicWorks/vancouverlake/MapsMaterials/ClarkCountyVLWP03162005.pdf
which has been posted before
snowmman 3
attached jpg from http://www.clark.wa.gov/water-resources/documents/Monitoring/maps/Map%20A_LISP%20stations.pdf
When you look at Salmon Creek hydrology, remember that Lake River at Vancouver Lake has bidirectional flow (noted earlier...depends on Columbia River stage)
(edit)
nice page on current programs around Salmon Creek
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/tmdl/SalmonCr/SalmonCr.html
When you look at Salmon Creek hydrology, remember that Lake River at Vancouver Lake has bidirectional flow (noted earlier...depends on Columbia River stage)
(edit)
nice page on current programs around Salmon Creek
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/tmdl/SalmonCr/SalmonCr.html
Georger - GUYs look at the map. The area you have outlined is away from Tena's bar - think about the houses over there and the road that goes along the river.
That other road over where the track are - I was not over there.
It may have been a road we came down before we turned off to the river, but - we were already on the river road before that point. At least that is what I remember .. I had lots of people asking me questions and I don't remember how we got there. I just know we came down a road and before Tena's bar we turned to our Left toward the river and went along the river. There was a parking area and West of that was the farm house. In between these two areas was the gate to the beach... but this road was on the river and what you are indicating might be on the main artery going to the farm.
I paid no attention to the land coming into the area and the area you are designating I would not have seen. I will make a call to Himmelsbach this week end and he may know.
That other road over where the track are - I was not over there.
It may have been a road we came down before we turned off to the river, but - we were already on the river road before that point. At least that is what I remember .. I had lots of people asking me questions and I don't remember how we got there. I just know we came down a road and before Tena's bar we turned to our Left toward the river and went along the river. There was a parking area and West of that was the farm house. In between these two areas was the gate to the beach... but this road was on the river and what you are indicating might be on the main artery going to the farm.
I paid no attention to the land coming into the area and the area you are designating I would not have seen. I will make a call to Himmelsbach this week end and he may know.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
QuoteJo you must have missed post 2034 when I posted more photos of the Ingram bills originally.
I do not open most of the pictures, because I do not want to confuse what is in my mind. You have posted so many pic it is impossible to look at all of them.
Sorry, but I have other things I have to do besides this forum.
Quote
I'm also curious whether 5 gallon plastic paint cans were in use in 1971..
They may not have been paint cans but they were 5 gallon plastic and metal cans - they were right there in the back of that shed - the man's daughter said they had been there since she could remember. I can contact her and let her verify this in an email to me then I will post the email. I may call her if I still have her number somewhere. All of this has already been checked before.
Quote, would have gone down the columbia and landed at tina bar, relatively flat and still in their bundles.
Also, the rubber bands were in such bad shape, they would have had to gone from relatively okay shape when you said Duane threw them in, to really bad shape by the Feb discovery. Remember they were intact, but crumbled upon touch at Tina Bar.
Duh! They were in a paper bag and I do not know how they may have been protected inside of that bag - they could have been wrapped in plastic or bundled in some way. This is an unknown factor.
QuoteI can believe he threw a paper bag in the Columbia and watched it float. Lots of people litter that way. So what.
Believe what you want - but back then we didn't litter - we did not even throw a cigarette butt out the window or chewing gum wrap. We knew what that did to the birds.
Quote
Even your paint can decomposition theory is just one decomposition theory. You should be able to name 5 theories, rather than just going on and on about one.
I leave the other theories up to you guys - I just try to defend what I know - I look and listen to the possibilities, but so far no one has been very convincing. You all are going on and on about that land - at Fazio's and you have never been there.
QuoteLike I've said before, you're only watching one channel.
Oh, but I am listening and watching - I have seen some individuals make real ---'s out of themselves and then be proven wrong. There have been other suspects and other theories over the last 13 yrs and there are those that came before. You have a lot of research to do on me before you can really say that...have you read all of the other forums prior to DZ? Have you read every book? Have you talked to people who were involved? What exposure did you have until this forum and this tread. Want to see my many suitcases of things - pictures, maps --- I can't add much more. Most of the pics were repetitive, but the money - I opened that on a whim - it is not necessary to consume myself with every detail and every pic posted.
I do try to have a life regardless of the limitations. I do keep an open mind. I do continue to research (the FBI doesn't).
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
QuoteGeorger - GUYs look at the map. The area you have outlined is away from Tena's bar - think about the houses over there and the road that goes along the river.
That other road over where the track are - I was not over there.
It may have been a road we came down before we turned off to the river, but - we were already on the river road before that point. At least that is what I remember .. I had lots of people asking me questions and I don't remember how we got there. I just know we came down a road and before Tena's bar we turned to our Left toward the river and went along the river. There was a parking area and West of that was the farm house. In between these two areas was the gate to the beach... but this road was on the river and what you are indicating might be on the main artery going to the farm.
I paid no attention to the land coming into the area and the area you are designating I would not have seen. I will make a call to Himmelsbach this week end and he may know.
Hi Jo.
I'm not exactly sure what you think we're confused about. We know all the places perfectly. Are you asking about the Salmon Creek to Tina Bar theory? I've attached a jpg from current Google Earth showing a path.
What exactly is Himmelsbach going to be able to tell us? It would actually be pretty interesting to ask him some questions, if he'll return your calls. I'm not exactly sure what might be interesting to ask him though.
It is interesting that the money was found relatively close to a parking area, now that you mention it. On the one hand you say it's an obscure area...on the other hand there's a parking area and gate right there!
It's not like you have to walk very far from your car to get there.
QuoteTake one look at this picture, and if you're sensible, you've got to say to yourself "Hmm..I actually have no idea how money decomposes in a can". I know I don't. I know enough to know there's no way you could know.
I do not know where that 'can" in your picture was stored - obviously in a dry place and not in the ground around the Columbia...where it was subject to the wet ground. The contents of that can have obviously been dry and not wet and in a very dark place.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
from current GE (attached)
mostly big logs.
Just background for Ckret's snag/raft theory
mostly big logs.
Just background for Ckret's snag/raft theory
Now, that makes sense. Perhaps that is why the money was already set aside for such an incident - in a vault. The trap had already been set for a hijacker? Maybe? Or did they have such technology in 1971 and if so would they have used it.?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
I admit this is a bit of a stretch...
This photo is current GE just S of Tina Bar.
I labelled the Lat/Long so you can find it in GE
I think the bright white spots could be garbage? This is interesting to me, because I thought if the money "landed" at Tina Bar from the Columbia, it should be a natural garbage collection spot. It may be. See photo. Also note how high up the beach the apparent garbage is.
This photo is current GE just S of Tina Bar.
I labelled the Lat/Long so you can find it in GE
I think the bright white spots could be garbage? This is interesting to me, because I thought if the money "landed" at Tina Bar from the Columbia, it should be a natural garbage collection spot. It may be. See photo. Also note how high up the beach the apparent garbage is.
SNowmMan sorry that post was for Georger - he knows what I am referring to. My computer or connection does not allow me to make quotes so I have to copy and paste to make a post. He sent me a map asking about land between the Shoreline road to the farm and the Rail Road Tracks.
As for the gate and being obscure - perhaps you do not understand what I am trying to say and I don't know how to say if better so you don't try to make jumble pie out of it. I am tired.
As for the gate and being obscure - perhaps you do not understand what I am trying to say and I don't know how to say if better so you don't try to make jumble pie out of it. I am tired.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Ckret 0
Thanks Snowmman, I knew you would support my theory 100%, thats why I feed you information, oh wait thats Safecrack, no I mean Sluggo, oh hell, I don't know who I mean.
georger 214
Quote
REPLY> I read the high at 74 not 76/77. See attached. And this was for the Salem station not
Portland. I looked for similar data and a graph for
Vancouver but just ran out of time looking -
.
ah you're correct..I didn't look closely enough. weird the '74 dredging occured that year.
For completeness, I've attached the court case that incidentally documented the August '74 dumping of 175,000 cubic yards of sand on the opposite side of the Columbia River. I've referred to this before.
(page 2, top of column 2)
(the court case by itself is curiously interesting also!)
So I don't know if the high water levels in '74 in the williamette were after the dredging at the Fazios. They might have been.
REPLY? Yes, '74 must have been an interesting year
for the dredgers.. 76 is also wet however, just not as
wet.
I wonder what the Fazio's think about all of this?
georger 214
QuoteQuote"In some cases, portions of as many as four notes were stuck together due to their apparent long exposure to water and various weather conditions. "
Yeah, that sentence stood out to me as well. If the fragments were so adherent that they didn't reveal themselves to handling before...
ltdiver
Good find.
georger 214
QuoteGeorger - GUYs look at the map. The area you have outlined is away from Tena's bar - think about the houses over there and the road that goes along the river.
That other road over where the track are - I was not over there.
It may have been a road we came down before we turned off to the river, but - we were already on the river road before that point. At least that is what I remember .. I had lots of people asking me questions and I don't remember how we got there. I just know we came down a road and before Tena's bar we turned to our Left toward the river and went along the river. There was a parking area and West of that was the farm house. In between these two areas was the gate to the beach... but this road was on the river and what you are indicating might be on the main artery going to the farm.
I paid no attention to the land coming into the area and the area you are designating I would not have seen. I will make a call to Himmelsbach this week end and he may know.
Jo dont go to any special trouble over this.
Please!
georger 214
Quotefrom current GE (attached)
mostly big logs.
Just background for Ckret's snag/raft theory
REPLY> Good photos of Tina Bar debris. Definately
shows it can happen as Ckret thinks. Will go back to
find the year of this debris - 96?
Im not sure what to think of the Salmon Creek idea,
so mulling it over and reading ...
snowmman 3
QuoteThanks Snowmman, I knew you would support my theory 100%, thats why I feed you information, oh wait thats Safecrack, no I mean Sluggo, oh hell, I don't know who I mean.
Yes, the FBI guy is allowed to be funny sometimes! :)
I picture you walking thru the sea of cubicles to get coffee in the morning, and all your straight-laced buds asking "so what's up with the Cooper thing" and in your mind you want to start blabbering about Sluggo_monster and snowmman and Safecrack, and you wisely hesitate and mumble "Oh...nothing".
Here's something that will perk you up.
Google tracks search trends and correlates blips to news events. You can see when searches for DB Cooper peak in response to events. The parachute find caused a big blip.
But they also break it out by countries, states and languages.
I attached the current Google Trends result for "DB Cooper"
Your goal was to create interest. I think you've achieved that. See attached.
You can see it was dead from 2004-2006 (search data only goes back to 2004)
It's also interesting there were more searches for DB Cooper in Portland than Seattle. That's probably bad. You need to drum up Seattle interest more?
snowmman 3
QuoteGood photos of Tina Bar debris. Definately
shows it can happen as Ckret thinks. Will go back to
find the year of this debris - 96?
..
I'm thinking the exact year is not important. (although I suspect the satellite image is <2 years old?) A river person might confirm this, but I suspect things like where sandbars form, and where logs and driftwood tend to collect, are related to the primary structural things in a river that don't change that much (they don't change because man tends to try to keep the river the same, once they build alongside it.)
So you're right it might vary over the years, but I'm guessing that similar things happen every year.
For the coarseness we're talking about, in this particular area.
For instance, we don't see the sand totally disappear.
There are areas on the columbia with hardly any beaches. But Tina Bar maintains it's beach.
And I posted other info from the other side, where people can't replenish the beaches with dredging spoils so easily anymore, because of environmental concerns.
So I'm thinking behaviors of the river have been consistent for a while.
georger 214
QuoteQuoteGood photos of Tina Bar debris. Definately
shows it can happen as Ckret thinks. Will go back to
find the year of this debris - 96?
..
I'm thinking the exact year is not important. (although I suspect the satellite image is <2 years old?) A river person might confirm this, but I suspect things like where sandbars form, and where logs and driftwood tend to collect, are related to the primary structural things in a river that don't change that much (they don't change because man tends to try to keep the river the same, once they build alongside it.)
So you're right it might vary over the years, but I'm guessing that similar things happen every year.
For the coarseness we're talking about, in this particular area.
For instance, we don't see the sand totally disappear.
There are areas on the columbia with hardly any beaches. But Tina Bar maintains it's beach.
And I posted other info from the other side, where people can't replenish the beaches with dredging spoils so easily anymore, because of environmental concerns.
So I'm thinking behaviors of the river have been consistent for a while.
REPLY> I actually think the Fazios and other locals
may know more about the behavior at T Bar and in
its environs, than even a hydrologist would. Joe made
a remarkable comment saying: 'Farmers know their land'. These people would know what years conveyed
debris vs those that didn't. Sometimes local people
are the true experts, worth more than a million phD's.
I am willing to bet the Fazios have a theory about this
whole thing.
QuoteThanks Snowmman, I knew you would support my theory 100%, thats why I feed you information, oh wait thats Safecrack, no I mean Sluggo, oh hell, I don't know who I mean.
IF ANY OF YOU ARE DEPENDING ON THESE THINGS THAT SNOWMMAN AND GEORGER HAVE POSTED FROM THEIR ON-LINE SEARCH - YOU ARE GOING TO BE DISAPPOINTED. The Lake River and Lake Vancouver along with Salmon Creek - does not work. AS PER - two individuals who live there and know the river and its surrounding.
Those bodies of water are not as you are theorizing with your maps.
Lake River flows N. and Salmon Creek empties into the River Lake all of which is above Tina's Bar and the water flows NORTH - therefore those avenues are impossible. was not a flood from 1971 to 1980 that could possibly have allowed any back-flow or over flow or flooding of these area that could deposit anything on Tena's Bar...Besides the currents would have carried any debri North of those location - no back flow. cannot make deposits at Tena's Bar. None of the areas can make any deposits on Tena's Bar.
Lake River or River Lake is a peaceful and popular boating area.
I
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
will have all of this information when I am in WA. The locals have made it very emphatic that your "theory" could not be possible. If the money did end up in Salmon Creek it would have come out above Tina's bar where the other river empties into the Columbia. It could not get to Tina's Bar from Salmon Creek. 
Obviously you guys have NEVER been to that area of WA and what you are getting off of the computer sites - you are reading what you want it to be...but it is NOT POSSIBLE. 
Before making such claims and confusing the house or the guest or the public in anyway so ever - you need to go to WA and talk to the people who have the same knowledge and capabililties that you all have - they will SHOW you how - what you are " theorizing" cannot be POSSIBLE. Oh! Snowmman there has been arguments before about the state of the money and that the damage had to have been done by water and air to make mold and mildew occur. Submerged money does not mold or mildew.
Say what you wish - but money that has been submerged in WATER for 7 yrs will NOT have the kind of damage you are seeing.
The money had to have had stages of wet and moisture and heat in a closed container..this left the money in a fragil condition (with mold and mildew damage) so when it was retrived and dumped into the river - the deterioration you are seeing would have happened rapidly with the current and the water damage that you are seeing on the bills.
5 gallon containers where used for yrs prior to 1971 - farm feed for one, paint, tar and other chemicals used for highways and by the county. I am sure someone else can add to this list.
Plastic bags like we buy fertiziler in now came in other kinds of containers because of the petroleum needed to make the bag and the quality of the bag was not sufficient to hold these things - so buckets that were re-usable was very popular.
I believe the above statements are the best I can do from 2 phone conversations with Locals. No, one of them WAS NOT Himmelsbach - he doesn't really know that much about these things.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Seems that they've found more serial numbers on the bills that were stuck together. They pieced together the fragments that they found and were able to identify almost 3 dozen more bills.
Don't know the date of the 'discovery' as the article is not dated.
http://www.pcgscurrency.com/dbcooperserials.html
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
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