DB Cooper

[georger 197]

Sorry I dont agree. The FBI will accept anything that
can be proven and explains the facts. But, they do want
solid facts that walk.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Sorry I dont agree. The FBI will accept anything that can be proven and explains the facts. But, they do want solid facts that walk.

yeah, but there are some things that just can't be answered. I think the money is going to be one of them, unless Cooper is still alive and confesses. There's just too many possibilties. I can't conceive of accumulating enough data to point to just one of them.
Even if we all agree to agree on one theory as "best", it's just a gentleman's agreement. It won't necessarily be true.

Getting a definitive statement on the cause of the black and purple staining of the money, and the length of time required in the probable sand/water environment for the bill edge decomposition, and the source of the holes...would be a HUGE step in understanding the money. But we can't even get that!

I mean the most detailed photos of the Ingram money were the ones I published here, that I stole from the auction site...Isn't that laughable?

If there's no investigation budget to do even a rudimentary money analysis, as far as we know here,... our motley stabs at it are pretty pointless...

I mean we have our fun, and I hope everyone else is drinking too...everyone does a shot when Jo goes off a bit...and another shot when she makes it back :)

I sent an email to the B.E.P. guys that analyze damaged US currency asking them to look at photos of the Cooper bills to give an opinion. They never responded. I figured they forwarded my email request to Ckret saying "hey there's this weird guy asking us to look at bills from the Cooper case, maybe it's Cooper!" :)

(edit) I'd flame at Ckret for his mention of releasing info to Sluggo cause he's on the same page, but I didn't want to reveal the Con we have going...i.e. at least one plan is working well...

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Ok. Same photo now with ??????? in blue on
what looks like hill area, also added incline line, and
labeled 2nd sand operation below the first.

isn't the ??? area just cleared/plowed fields, before planting? Remember from Jack Fazio's obit, they had a farming operation?

When I zoom in with Google Earth, it does appear furrowed, but the color seems more gray than I would expect.

But here's the telltale sign. Zoom around OTHER farm areas in that area. Other fields are in the ?same? newly plowed state (grey) ...I think because everyone plants around the same time, and the satellite photo must have been taken before planting?

There are some row crops visible as green...so some things must be planted at different times.


oh and you've seen the little stream that crosses almost all the way from Lower River Rd near Tina Bar to the Lake River that drains/fills Vancouver lake? I showed that in an earlier post.

Note you're talking about the Shillapoo Lake region.

[skyjack71 0]

OK. Duane went NO WHERE near Tena's bar. The closest we got was the Red Lion Inn at the bridge.

When I was at Tena's bar in 2001 there was a farm house there so that pic was taken after 2001...or I am not seeing it. Himmelsbach and I parked up where you see cars and went thru a gate that had been opened for us - it was about 1/4 to a foot ball field length to the Trees which where much larger than they were in 1980...from other pictures I have seen of the actual site. Yes many of Byans photos are pose at other location and one is the dig site after the find several wks later when it snowed again.

After you get to the trees in 2001 there it was about 60 feet to the water - the location Himmelsbach pointed out to was closer to the trees and about 20 to 25 feet from the tree line...and about 25 feet from the water - this was May of 2001. I would say from my observations that the water line was low at that time. If you looked down stream to the East you would see trees closer to the water line - it was explained to us that in 1980 the shoreline looked more like that than what we were currently looking at in 2001.

Do you understand this? - meet me there in OCT.

The layers of Sand or whatever to the right or North of the road and before the tracks - seemed like it was ALL pasture land in 2001. But I would not have been able to see any further than the one pasture that you can see in the photo.

I am sure Safecrack knows what they are and infact I believe he addressed all of that in his posts in describing the area...

I will make a phone call this wk end and get the answers for you. It is NOT stone slabs - that is a very large area you have to remember what you are looking at.
I may be something that the Sand farm does to clean the sand - a process to whiten it for building purposes...just a guess.

As for Duane going that far - NO.
He knew that river and what was on it that is for sure. How, when and why that is the question.

Cooper did not land in the water nor did he physically go to Tena's bar. The closest Cooper go to Tena's bar is the Red Lion Hotel at the bridge.

The Tena's bar area is not very populated - only a fool would allow himself to be in a place that someone would question his presence. I promise you after seeing the area in 2001 - COOPER who ever he was did NOT put that money there. It got there by flow of the water - and as per Safecrack it did not get there by the Willamett or the Vancouver lake or that creek that runs along there.

He knows that area like the back of his hand...the kid was raised on that river and he lived to be on that river - there is not a nook or crany that he does not know...but he was not even born with Cooper jumped...but his reseach is very thorough and he has lived there all of his life.

I will also talk to Himmelsbach and a couple of others that might help me out with this information - none of the people are posters or use computeres to any extent other than an email.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

I'm theorizing the stained bills (purple/black) are due to direct contact with dredging spoils which contained nitrites/nitrates, or sand that had farm fertilizer runoff.

Assuming outer bills in a bundle were most affected. Which explains why apparent inner bills don't have the staining.

Experts could estimate how long it would take for this staining to occur, given a sampling of current dredge spoils. I think it also means that the rubber bands were there throughout the staining period. This would go against the theory that the rubber bands imply a <1 year lifetime exposed, but I think the rubber band lifetime theories don't accurately account for the inhibited microbial decomposition due to high moisture, and inhibited UV effects due to sand coverage.

Rather than focusing on nebulous rubber band lifetimes theories, I think the staining may provide a better lifetime predictor at Tena Bar.

We're postulating that the bills would have been protected by a bag before Tena Bar, so no direct sand/soil to bill contact would have occured before Tena Bar, and the bag would have provided direct UV protection.

So all staining must have began after bill to sand/soil contact occured at Tena Bar.

If the staining was due to chemicals in the water, than all bills should have been equally affected, because of equal satuation by water.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Sorry I dont agree. The FBI will accept anything that can be proven and explains the facts. But, they do want solid facts that walk.

yeah, but there are some things that just can't be answered. I think the money is going to be one of them, unless Cooper is still alive and confesses. There's just too many possibilties. I can't conceive of accumulating enough data to point to just one of them.

REPLY> Well, maybe, maybe not. The route the money traveled may have left tracks still available,
in the money itself. Not even Cooper can fool Mother
Nature, alive or dead.




Even if we all agree to agree on one theory as "best", it's just a gentleman's agreement. It won't necessarily be true.

Getting a definitive statement on the cause of the black and purple staining of the money, and the length of time required in the probable sand/water environment for the bill edge decomposition, and the source of the holes...would be a HUGE step in understanding the money. But we can't even get that!

REPLY> Ok. Let me see what I can do for you on that.
Our flooding here brought things to a hault, but let me
make a few calls after the 4th and see what I can do.
I know this is important to you.






I sent an email to the B.E.P. guys that analyze damaged US currency asking them to look at photos of the Cooper bills to give an opinion. They never responded. I figured they forwarded my email request to Ckret saying "hey there's this weird guy asking us to look at bills from the Cooper case, maybe it's Cooper!" :)

REPLY> Have you ever worked in a lab? It's busy!
I mean very busy. You get emails from everyone
including the Almighty who want this and that and
on and on ... now multiply that by 40 and that is what
the Seattle Office of the FBI probably gets every week.

So dont take it personally your email wasn't answered.
I suppose we could start a self help group for victims
of email avoidance? DBCEVA ? We would probably have
300 subscribers in the first week, and 2 left after the first month because we couldnt handle the email!

Hope you are smiling -


George

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

I was looking at the Ingram bills again and noticed an anomaly.

I'm assuming the bills were all arranged in a bundle with the front of the bills in the same direction. The purple staining always seems to be most prevalent on the president's face side.

What's odd, is that the "fading" on the rear sides (the ink fades to yellow) seems to only be present on the bills that also have the purple staining on the front.

If the issue was just sun exposure for the top bills in a bundle, I wouldn't think we'd see this front/back correlation on a single bill.

The bills with no front purple staining, also have normal green ink on the back (not yellow)

The faded yellow (from green) on the backs is very dramatic, compared to the backs with no fading.

So somehow, I think the purple staining on the front, and the yellow fading on the back are both caused by the same chemical action.

I suppose the issue is that the front has mostly black ink and the back has mostly green ink. The black ink doesn't seem to fade like the green ink.

The green ink seems to be affected differently than the black ink. But then again, the green ink on the front of the bills doesn't seem to be affected the same way as the green ink on the back. I don't know if the same green ink is used on front and backs of bills.

While the back sides don't have as much purple staining, it may be because of an oxygen exposure issue, (more on top of bundle?) or it may be something subtle about the composition of the top of the bill.

[snowmman 3]

In reading the various descriptions of the money find, it strikes me that the 3 bundles weren't uncovered all at once...i.e. it took some additional "sweeping" to recover all 3 bundles.

If they were touching, I think the description of the find would have been different...i.e. we just found this one stack and couldn't find any others.

So I'm going to theorize that the bundles weren't touching on discovery...just close together.

The main testimony seems to be from an 8-year old on the initial uncovering of the bundles, so I think it's fair to question it.

I would also note that we've gotten inconsistent descriptions from Ckret over time.

On Dec 2, 2007, Ckret posted this:

"There were multiple bundles recovered under 3 to 6 inches of sand, just at the waters edge (according to the Ingrams) no bricks of money. I found reference to four bundles, of which the rubber bands were still around them, there were 290 20's"

This description makes no sense, since the find was not at the water's edge. And there weren't 4 bundles.
So there must be inconsistent testimony from the Ingrams or something, or Ckret was just misremembering at the time. Although he had discovered the lab reports before this..these prior posts:

on Nov. 28, 2007 Ckret posted this:

"Here's the scoop on the money. It was found in a area known as Tena's Bar which is just northwest Vancouver. The money was found 6 to 8 inches below the surface along the northern shore of the Columbia. This area was owned by the Fazio Brother's Farms."

different depth: the money is 6 to 8 inches below the surface

on Nov. 30, 2007 Ckret apparently found the lab reports. Depth changes to "a few inches"

"I found the cover sheets to the lab reports which summarize the findings. I also found the interviews of the Ingram family with regard to the recovery. I found the following:

The money was not stuck together with muck.

The money was found under just a few inches of sand.

They were still bundled with rubber bands, however, the bands crumbled to the touch when they picked them up.

The Ingrams took the money to their house and laid it out to dry.

The only thing in the lab report was that the money was consistent with being submerged in water and that sand recovered off the money was consistent with silt from the Columbia. "

[snowmman 3]

attached

(edit) another nice one from hawaii attached (big stuff)

[snowmman 3]

I've attached a photo of the back of L01781113A
This one shows most obviously, that the purple stain occurs where there is no ink on the currency...i.e. the ink protected the paper from turning purple?

At first I thought maybe the purple stain occured after the edge decomposition, which made it have the rounded rectangular pattern here.

But then in looking at other bills, front and back, I realized that the purple stains occur mainly where there is bare paper. The ink protected the paper.

This makes it more likely to be a chemical reaction with the paper I think.

In fact, I wondered for a long time whether this could be evidence of counterfeit money, but when zoomed in, I think I can see the telltale threads in the paper. Also the crisp detail of the printing, and colors of the inks on good bills, seems consistent with real money.

[377 20]

Quote

I don't think your missing anything, either its possible or not that the money could get to Tina's Bar by natural means. Using the flight path and several drift possibilities (open high, open low, no opening, money stays him and rots off, money gets torn off upon jumping) my hope is that a point can be determined along the flight path where things line up.

If they dont, then we have to explore other possibilities.

Ckret,

Sure hope you can get a TV show to recreate the jump. Dont worry if you cant get a 727, any turboprop tailgate aircraft can be a pretty good substitute, especially a CASA 212, which if firewalled could likely match the Cooper exit speed. I did a high speed exit out of one and it was almost an identical experience to the DC 9 jet.

Try the local USAF/ANG Air Rescue Squadron. Their PJs can jump out of anything and in to anything... and they have an HC 130 Herc to play with. They even do high seas night jumps and other incredibly hazardous practice jumps. They also have specialized GPS gear to record tracks and do navigation under canopy (using a fold out plotting board no less, at least that's what they had a few years back). I'll bet they would welcome the publicity and it would make a great training jump.

Good luck.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I found historical peak flows measured at Salem, OR for the Williamette.
http://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/floods/papers/usgs_large_floods.pdf

While we know of the flooding in 1996, a comparison to 1996 on the chart (attached) seems to show late 1976 (or early '77?) was a high year also. Not as bad as 1996 though. Note severe floods in the '60s (worse) are marked.

Salem, OR is a bit far from the Columbia, but I'm thinking the water levels might be representative.

[snowmman 3]

Nice photo attached from 1976 of barges used in the columbia during bridge construction.

total of 28 cofferdams were apparently constructed.

One possible theory is that this construction work could have displaced the bag for a journey downriver to Tina Bar.

from http://www.gerwick.com/pdf/Cofferdams_Caissons/06columbia_river.pdf

[skyjack71 0]

The"purple" staining. I am not a scientist, but I have lived long enough to have experience many things.

Mold and mildew leave purple and gray stains - this appears to be a mold or mildewed area that has been bleached out by the water and soil in the Columbia. ]Now I will state that if the money had been in the WATER 7 yrs...there would be no mold or mildew.

Hence why the FBI and the specialist who examined the money in 1971 - said it had been in a protected area for a period of time. They knew it had NOT been in the water for 7 yrs.The money was hidden in a place near the water - in a large plastic paint can near a house on the Columbia - the can was buried.

When the money was retrieved in 1979 he knew it was no good. Bugs had eaten it and water had seeped in causing the money to mold, mildew and rot and stick together. Perhaps some of the money was more protected and secured. The damaged money he threw away.

When it hit the water - it may have been caught up some place for a while...but it made its way to Tena's bar and was later found.

Forensic testing will prove that was mold and mildew - after it was subjected to water and soil and sun. That is how it looks.

Thank for posting that picture - I had never seen anything like this and I just do not go looking for these things - but, Snowmman you are a man of many talents.

That ONE photo - enforced what I have said for yrs and yrs and yrs and what Duane told me about the money...when I noted the article in the paper about the find "I know its' worthless".

That ONE photo proved beyond a doubt in my mind that the MONEY was not in the water for 7 yrs and NOT in the money bag beneath the waters of the Columbia.

I feel sure that I can get this backed up by testing of such a bill and I am willing to pay for it if the FBI will provide a bill with this particular staining on it. I am not rich, but I feel confident enough about this to invest my hard earned money into it.

Perhaps one of Ckrets TV programs would like to take this on. The more I learn the more it enforces everything I have said for 13 yrs - and my efforts to do so alone and fighting the elements (the FBI) and the nay sayers has destroyed my health.

This picture of that bill was a VICTORY...one I know the FBI will not make go away. I believe that others can make the same judgement from the photo alone.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

OK. Duane went NO WHERE near Tena's bar. The closest we got was the Red Lion Inn at the bridge.

When I was at Tena's bar in 2001 there was a farm house there so that pic was taken after 2001...or I am not seeing it. Himmelsbach and I parked up where you see cars and went thru a gate that had been opened for us - it was about 1/4 to a foot ball field length to the Trees which where much larger than they were in 1980...from other pictures I have seen of the actual site. Yes many of Byans photos are pose at other location and one is the dig site after the find several wks later when it snowed again.

After you get to the trees in 2001 there it was about 60 feet to the water - the location Himmelsbach pointed out to was closer to the trees and about 20 to 25 feet from the tree line...and about 25 feet from the water - this was May of 2001. I would say from my observations that the water line was low at that time. If you looked down stream to the East you would see trees closer to the water line - it was explained to us that in 1980 the shoreline looked more like that than what we were currently looking at in 2001.

Do you understand this? - meet me there in OCT.

The layers of Sand or whatever to the right or North of the road and before the tracks - seemed like it was ALL pasture land in 2001. But I would not have been able to see any further than the one pasture that you can see in the photo.

I am sure Safecrack knows what they are and infact I believe he addressed all of that in his posts in describing the area...

I will make a phone call this wk end and get the answers for you. It is NOT stone slabs - that is a very large area you have to remember what you are looking at.
I may be something that the Sand farm does to clean the sand - a process to whiten it for building purposes...just a guess.

As for Duane going that far - NO.
He knew that river and what was on it that is for sure. How, when and why that is the question.

Cooper did not land in the water nor did he physically go to Tena's bar. The closest Cooper go to Tena's bar is the Red Lion Hotel at the bridge.

The Tena's bar area is not very populated - only a fool would allow himself to be in a place that someone would question his presence. I promise you after seeing the area in 2001 - COOPER who ever he was did NOT put that money there. It got there by flow of the water - and as per Safecrack it did not get there by the Willamett or the Vancouver lake or that creek that runs along there.

He knows that area like the back of his hand...the kid was raised on that river and he lived to be on that river - there is not a nook or crany that he does not know...but he was not even born with Cooper jumped...but his reseach is very thorough and he has lived there all of his life.

I will also talk to Himmelsbach and a couple of others that might help me out with this information - none of the people are posters or use computeres to any extent other than an email.

REPLY> Thanks Jo. That is helpful.

This area behind the shoreline _ is it a hill? I have enclosed this area with yellow on a photo attached
and have drawn a pink line that I think follows the
contour of the land. Is that a bowl shapped hill between the yellow lines?

Where is Safecracking? Did he leave for some reason?

Thanks, George

[georger 197]

I will get you your purple and black staining, or will
try. I am sure the black is simply fungal or bacterial staining and the purple is some kind of common
mineral salt but will email or talk to a friend and ask
him, after the Fourth.

[snowmman 3]

Jo you must have missed post 2034 when I posted more photos of the Ingram bills originally.

In any case, I don't agree with your conclusions.
I'm also curious whether 5 gallon plastic paint cans were in use in 1971..it's not clear based on some quick newspaper scans. Not sure. If you're talking 1 gallon plastic paint cans, that's EXTREMELY unlikely in 1971. And why would there only be 3 bundles tossed or saved in that paint can?

I don't believe bills in that bad of shape, would have gone down the columbia and landed at tina bar, relatively flat and still in their bundles.

Also, the rubber bands were in such bad shape, they would have had to gone from relatively okay shape when you said Duane threw them in, to really bad shape by the Feb discovery. Remember they were intact, but crumbled upon touch at Tina Bar.

I just can't buy the idea of Duane throwing decomposed bundles in the Columbia and having them arrive in the found state at Tena Bar...even with a paper bag protecting them.

I can believe he threw a paper bag in the Columbia and watched it float. Lots of people litter that way. So what.

Jo, there are lots of money theories. Yours is one, and is weak in my mind compared to others. You seem to think the old Washougal theory is the only other theory other than yours, and yours is better than that, so yours is right.

Even your paint can decomposition theory is just one decomposition theory. You should be able to name 5 theories, rather than just going on and on about one.

Like I've said before, you're only watching one channel.

Saying that that bill is the first time you've seen it, confirms my thinking that you don't really look for evidence. You look for things to grasp onto, with a predetermined theory.

I'm also surprised you might not understand that you could be part of the problem in getting this thing solved, not part of the solution.

Also note that I reply to you just because I feel like it. It means nothing about whether I support anything you say. Sounds rough, but that's the truth.

[georger 197]

With the Fazio farm in the area, nitrates is not a bad quess. Cow crap runoff! Methane. Ckret has the bills - he could have one tested using The BCI lab in Washington State .. doesnt even have to go to Quantico. This is basic stuff... the test. But I will now ask my paper guys even if its only over the phone after sending them (your good) photos. Yours were
the best photos Ive ever seen. Super job there! This would be child's play to the Treasurey folks - if you know one just ask him ... I am sure there is a Treasurey Dept office in WA Ckret could also ring up
and ask ... if he hasnt already.

[georger 197]

I have copied your questions here and will put these directly to my paper guys here - AFTER THE FOURTH!

Its a holiday! Go watch some fireworks and cook some
wieners. Take a day off.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

With the Fazio farm in the area, nitrates is not a bad quess. Cow crap runoff! Methane. Ckret has the bills - he could have one tested using The BCI lab in Washington State .. doesnt even have to go to Quantico. This is basic stuff... the test. But I will now ask my paper guys even if its only over the phone after sending them (your good) photos. Yours were
the best photos Ive ever seen. Super job there! This would be child's play to the Treasurey folks - if you know one just ask him ... I am sure there is a Treasurey Dept office in WA Ckret could also ring up
and ask ... if he hasnt already.

yeah, look back at post 2034 to get all the photos.

I was interested in reading that Vancouver Lake had high fecal coliform levels. One of the reasons they built the "flushing channel" in later years from the lake to the columbia was to improve the water quality.

My random guess is that the bills don't show any contamination by manure or other fecal wastes. But I don't know. It would be interesting if so.

But the two things I just noticed: purple on front correlated to green to yellow fade on back, and purple on the un-inked paper surface, seem interesting to me. And it appears the front green ink didn't fade, while the back did (on individual bills). I've read about different ink compositions, so a specialist might have insight there...I've read the ink maybe changes slightly with different batches.


Also, I'm surprised by the integrity of the edges, even though decomposed. I was wondering if the bills might have had their edges "brushed" or "picked" clean for display by the Ingrams. So a equally detailed photo of the FBI bills is probably needed, just in case the Ingram bills were "detailed" for auction in any way.

I doubt they did any chemical treatment or washing, since numismatics don't like that...they like it untreated.

[snowmman 3]

Jo I'm posting this for you.

This is a picture of US currency that has decomposed inside a paint can. I'm not sure how much dampness was involved or a time period.

But you can easily see that money rots/stains in different ways depending on environment.

With absolutely no knowledge, you've decided your paint can theory is tightly correlated to the condition of the Ingram money.

Take one look at this picture, and if you're sensible, you've got to say to yourself "Hmm..I actually have no idea how money decomposes in a can". I know I don't. I know enough to know there's no way you could know.

Here at "the salt pit" we bury all sorts of things!

[georger 197]

Quote

I've attached a photo of the back of L01781113A
This one shows most obviously, that the purple stain occurs where there is no ink on the currency...i.e. the ink protected the paper from turning purple?

At first I thought maybe the purple stain occured after the edge decomposition, which made it have the rounded rectangular pattern here.

But then in looking at other bills, front and back, I realized that the purple stains occur mainly where there is bare paper. The ink protected the paper.

This makes it more likely to be a chemical reaction with the paper I think.

In fact, I wondered for a long time whether this could be evidence of counterfeit money, but when zoomed in, I think I can see the telltale threads in the paper. Also the crisp detail of the printing, and colors of the inks on good bills, seems consistent with real money.

REPLY> Well,,, to me the yellowing is oxydisation, of
the green pigmented ink. The purple is probably the
same as the black, just in a different stage of development _ both fungal, ie mold stain. The same basic thing you see in a bathroom if allowed to grow.

I would have some of the bills tested using mass
spectroscopy.

You may be right. The presence of ink might inhibit
the growth of mold in some way. I just dont know -

That is a great photo.

[georger 197]

I wish NOVA (PBS) would take this on -

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I have copied your questions here and will put these directly to my paper guys here - AFTER THE FOURTH!

Its a holiday! Go watch some fireworks and cook some
wieners. Take a day off.

will be gone for the next 3 days. dogs!

[georger 197]

Quote

I found historical peak flows measured at Salem, OR for the Williamette.
http://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/floods/papers/usgs_large_floods.pdf

While we know of the flooding in 1996, a comparison to 1996 on the chart (attached) seems to show late 1976 (or early '77?) was a high year also. Not as bad as 1996 though. Note severe floods in the '60s (worse) are marked.



REPLY> I read the high at 74 not 76/77. See attached. And this was for the Salem station not
Portland. I looked for similar data and a graph for
Vancouver but just ran out of time looking -

I do have all the money photos you posted - got them
at the time. I was here at this Board some time just reading the mail before ever posting.

• Quote