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quade

DB Cooper

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Here are a few more charts which deal with the Vancouver
watershed, and related hi water matters as could relate
to money found at Tina Bar. The charts and maps are
self explanatory so I wont waste time detailing them.

This much I have learned: Hi water time at T Bar is
generally late in Spring thaw (see graph attached).

The amount of flooding at any given time at T-Bar is
a function of the general flooding in any given year
against the backdrop of a wide flood basin established
many years ago, eg. on the Portland side of The Columbia and then continuing on the Vancouver side
which encompasses the area of Vancouver Lake up to
and including the whole area of Tina Bar and beyond.
(See flood basin maps attached).

I searched for water table charts for '74-80 in the
Vancouver-Portland basin but could find only USGS
charts which one must call forth and are proprietary.
Maybe someone else can get those.

No two years are the same on this location, floodwise.
Flow characteristics would accordingly change.

Maps showing the Vancouver watershed show tributaries which might have brought money into the
Columbia (if that was the mode of conveyance) to
later deposit $$$ at Tina Bar. (see watershed
charts attached).

A geological map is provided. This concerns the major
geological regions from which drainage falls to the
Columbia. (Not all silts are alike!) It appears Tina Bar
and the Washougal, for example, rest in different geological regions. This struck me as interesting.
(See geological regional map).

Lastly, the condition of the money at Tina Bar as been
of interest as a clue to its history. A person I spoke with today however points out that silts moved by the Columbia have a high "basalt" content. Basalts can be very abrassive when moved under pressure. This fact
might have bearing on the money's history.

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I could write a book about the hours I have spent on this piece of trivia alone.



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An finally the erroneous Seattle Post "Intelligencer" map showing Tina Bar in a different
location is attached - which got all this confusion started in the first place.



I had never seen the map used by Seattle Post Intelligencer - YOU are RIGHT - we are in trouble with info like that. BUT, that has been the problem with this case from get go - poor information or no information at all. Now we got people like you and Carr and Snowmman and Safecrack who are doing a pretty good job.

I spoke with a young man tonight who was raised on that river - I called him because the location of Tena's bar just didn't mean anything to me...but for the sake of the story I wanted to be sure it was right.

YOU are right - it is at the upper end of the Vancouver Lake. He said if you look at a map with an island there - it is across from that island, BUT that island was NOT there in 1971. I haven't tried this, but I remember something about that island being stated before.

Safecrack posted many photos and maps on the other forum before it go locked down - I think it was in those maps. He had some pretty good maps - yours maybe more of the same.

When the technical stuff gets over my head I am best to just shut up and observe.

Tena's bar never really meant much to me other than it was a place the TV crew took me to and they wanted me to move the sand around like I was looking for Coopers Money.

WELL, I knew that was not the place Duane took me the moment we got there and told them so - then I just left and went back up to where the cars were parked and had a good cry. I was not going to to be led into something that might discredit me.

We later found an area close to where Duane took me but not dead on - there had been a lot of new homes built on the river so it was difficult. Basically had to go by location and feel (the way the land lies and how it is observed from someone sitting in a car) of the land next to it. This turned out to be property above Winterly Park...still not 100% sure of the exact location.

Duane had obviously spent a lot of time in the area to be able to find that place - you couldn't just drive down to it - unless you knew were it was and what you were looking for...

WAKE up CARR: GET me some information on that caretaker...it is very important!....you ain't gonna solve this by keeping your head in the sand.

When I get out there in the fall - I will have everything prepared and the day before I leave pictures and a request posted will be in the paper - begging and asking for the information that I have asked and begged the FBI for.

If the paper won't do it then I will pay for the page...just like an ad.
It would be nice to go in NOV, but I have to be able to find the places Duane took me and it is better to do that in the time frame of my original visit to Wa with him.

Still waiting for a reply from others about joining me in Oct. in Portland. So far it is BigSky, myself and Gary (not on this forum). Need OLD TIMERS who remember what the land looked like in 1971. May have to run an ad to find this person.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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I could write a book about the hours I have spent on this piece of trivia alone.



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An finally the erroneous Seattle Post "Intelligencer" map showing Tina Bar in a different
location is attached - which got all this confusion started in the first place.



I had never seen the map used by Seattle Post Intelligencer - YOU are RIGHT - we are in trouble with info like that. BUT, that has been the problem with this case from get go - poor information or no information at all. Now we got people like you and Carr and Snowmman and Safecrack who are doing a pretty good job.

I spoke with a young man tonight who was raised on that river - I called him because the location of Tena's bar just didn't mean anything to me...but for the sake of the story I wanted to be sure it was right.

YOU are right - it is at the upper end of the Vancouver Lake. He said if you look at a map with an island there - it is across from that island, BUT that island was NOT there in 1971. I haven't tried this, but I remember something about that island being stated before.

Safecrack posted many photos and maps on the other forum before it go locked down - I think it was in those maps. He had some pretty good maps - yours maybe more of the same.

When the technical stuff gets over my head I am best to just shut up and observe.

Tena's bar never really meant much to me other than it was a place the TV crew took me to and they wanted me to move the sand around like I was looking for Coopers Money.


REPLY: Thank you Jo.

I also have cousins in Vancouver who confirmed Tina
Bar. But they had to ask others and then call me back. I have no explanation for the PI map but doubt
it matters now.

Jo, on these technical matters I post, I know its a bit
much. I am a down to Earth person so when I post
some of these things I just know some arent going to
like it. It isnt exactly entertainment and I know that.
So please, dont ever think Im trying to be some kind
of smartass ... I assure you I'm not. I always criticise
people here who go off on some technical tangent
at board meetings etc, where I know many will not
grasp what is being said. Things have to be brought
down to a common sense level, and usually can be
if the effort is put forth. I think Ckret is good at that.

Jo, I wont complicate this. Thanks for your understanding ... take care.

George.

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REPLY TO THE GUY WHO SAYS ITS SPELLED WRONG:

Is it Tena or Tina. I dont know. The Seattle PI says
"Tena". The sign on the gate (attached) says TINA.

See the attached and you decide. Its beyond me!

What book!? Im not writing a book. (That's Sluggo's
territory)

Maybe we should change the name to TYNA to keep ever'one happy and entertained.

Are you not being entertained?

Georger Maximus Meures

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You might consider reading this and the other thread. The name issue has been discussed before. Same pictures, and more, posted as well.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

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There is another DB Cooper thread that was locked a ways back. This thread is essentially a continuation of that one. Skyjack started the original thread.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

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There is another DB Cooper thread that was locked a ways back. This thread is essentially a continuation of that one. Skyjack started the original thread.



---------------------------
Thanks 196. I would like to know the history of Tina/Tena Bar if someone can give a short synopsis? I will go back and poke around at threads still here ...

Ive run out of material to post so people can breath
a sigh of relief - Snowmman and Sluggo and Ckret
will be back soon and life will go on . . .


Thanks,
George

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There is another DB Cooper thread that was locked a ways back. This thread is essentially a continuation of that one. Skyjack started the original thread.




reply: I found a wikimap of tina bar
using the waymark co'ords, posted by you in a discussion with Safecracking earlier. I will attach this photo again if you dont mind - - its a good photo.

I think prior to the money find in 1980 it was called Tina Bar, but then the Seattle PI published their map and labeled the site "Tena's Bar" in another location, and that started the confusion. My attempts to speak
to the SPI about this have never been answered.

I have to believe the waymark site is correct. It identifies Tina Bar as being 91/2 miles NW of Vancouver. The PI map shows T Bar between Vancouver and the Washougal River.

Its only a guess but at the time the PI published their
map the FBI stance was that the money had come
from the Washougal area, so it may have been that fact alone that had the PI place Tina Bar near the
Washougal.

Or maybe there is a Tena Bar near the Washougal
and a Tina Bar NW of Vancouver? Wouldnt that be a
coincidence.

In any event I post the photos again here -

Georger

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There is another DB Cooper thread that was locked a ways back. This thread is essentially a continuation of that one. Skyjack started the original thread.



For Shame Georger - we all thought you had read the other thread - and wondered why you were running these pics. Thanks anyway - if you read the other thread hopefully it will be worth your while. First you have to get past all the garbage that was dished out to me when I started the thread - just read it and you will understand.

Some posters did what was a natural response - I don't think they thought I was dead serious about the quest.

We all learned a lesson - talk about things and do it nicely, but sometimes I still get my feathers ruffled - tempers seem to be controlled here - if anyone gets out of sorts it is usually me.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Ok Jo. Thanks for the advice. I actually have read most
of the other thread, but a few things escaped me so
Ive back tracked. I think Ive read about everything there is to read, and a few things more, but some things always
escape... and I continually re-read.

I have also talked to a number of people who have
never been on any forum and never will.

This case is larger than any single person.

Here's a little something just for you - Happy Fourth.

George

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Since we have a lull I want to revisit another suspect that is never mentioned and when it is the FBI goes runs. The similarities and a possible relationship between Weber and Coffelt is the obvious reason.

John Hardy, Jr AKA J.C. Ross, AKA Bryant "Jack" Coffelt was a suspect and he his suspect in my mind for various reasons. Not that he was Cooper,but that he had knowledge of the crime and a connection with Cooper.

The FBI has never released much information about this suspect. He was in Leavenworth and other prisons including the Altanta Prison.

When he was first investigated he was know to be in association with a man known as James Brown also an excon and they resided in the Atlanta, Ga area at the time of the crime (also where Duane L. Weber was living).

About 8 months after the hijacking 2 men broke into Duane's residence in the Sandy Spring area and then set fire to the house - supposely "looking for something they thought he had".

It was determined that the fire was
set and not accidental. Duane and his family were at the fair at the time.

It was after I started investigating Duane's claim that he was Dan Cooper that I stumbled on the connection between the 3 men, but the FBI ignored me...and still do regarding this.

Coffelt was one of the best suspects they had but he is NEVER talked about........

There are some co-incidences regarding Coffelt and Weber. Coffeld use an AKA of Ross - Ross was the maiden name of Duane's wife. Shaffner and LeBissonier identified mug shots of Coffelt as being Cooper.

Coffelt like Duane left few photos of himself - as Duane also did
not like to have his pic taken (in Duane's case with glasses only and if without he was clowning).

Coffelt was in Jefferson as I understand it, but I have no confirmation of this - first the prison says yes, then they say no and then they say they lost the records. This is exactly what I went thru regarding Duane's residency in Jefferson.

The man who Coffelt was in association with was James Brown a pilot. Coffelt was regarded by the FBI as an informant - DOES this sound Familiar?- note - Commutation of Sentence?

Joplin, Missouri was a place Duane showed me when we went out to Co thru Missouri - he spoke of know a man who lived there at one time - then I find out that Coffelt lived there????

It was rumored that the rear of the 727 had only a few individuals
and that this resorted from Cooper calling in a lot of reservations who became "No Shows".

It was also claimed that a beacon light was used by Brown to direct Coffelt to his landing spot near Pine Hollow Reservoir. The plan involved others and stashing of cars and food supplies...all of which caused me to doubt the accounting I read in the Vegan - written in 1983 by the son of James Brown.

According to the story as told by Byron Brown - Coffelt spent 10K of his money and 11 months setting up the plan. Beeper signals were also used through a radio receiver strapped to Coffelt's wrist.

What does strike me as odd is that he knew it was a 28 ft canopy and he claimed that it opened with such a jolt that he lost the bag...but there is no mention of the bag being tied or secured. If his was an experienced jumper - I do not think he would have jumped without securing the bag.

He also claimed to have injuries from the jump --- but these injuries were still evident in 1974 - that is a long time for bruises and cuts to remain - so I got the impression that Coffelt was pulling a good one on this young man of 16 in 1974.

The irony in the whole story is this - Coffelt claimed to have lost the bag and he explained the money showing up in the Columbia as Coffelt claiming to have thrown a few bundles out the back of the Plane as it flew over the Bonneville Dam after the stewardess refused to take it.

This article also claims that Coffelt felt the stewardess up and stated that "she was the last woman I may have seen in my Life! I wanted her to have somthing you know, to remember me by."

The writer also makes claims about a green bag and knife with a long thin blade. The author claims to have met Tina in 1977 and that she did confirm the green bag which she thought was made of glossy paper or plastic.

Also note that this article refers to the bag as mail bag.

The writer also states - he asked her about Cooper and if he had touched her in any way. She reportedly flushed and said "He may have made a pass at me".

As per the author Tina also said he made this statement "I have nothing to lose". That he said this statement in a hushed tone.

Yet what we read from the FBI has none of this.

The green bag and the statement 'I have nothing to lose".
Who would make that kind of statement unless he thought he was already facing a death sentence of his own - such as the kidney problem and the impending dialysis of one Duane L. Weber?

The author also states that Tina was horrified and feared he would make her jump with him.

He quotes Shaffner as stating that Cooper was a "terribly lonesome man".

Again that sounds like someone with an existing problem - love, money, health???

The author also claims that Shaffner spoke with him enough to know he had a checkered past and wished him "Good Luck...I hope you make it".

There are many things in this article unknown to the public but then maybe they are all fiction.

That Cooper wore white gloves.

The note was written in Block Capitals on a single sheet of paper.

"I know exactly how long it take to refuel this plane."

"Screw me one more time and you're a dead man" in regards to the money not being in a knapsack.

Coffelt had a record and was mainly Las Vegas and Phoenix Az.
???

I have a couple of stories I will not relate at this time regarding AZ... specifically Phoenix.

Coffelt is said in this article to be known by Mrs. Kennedy, Lady Bird, J.Edgar Hoover and to have been linked to undercover operations in
Cuba, Mexico etc (sound familiar?).
I was said that he may have been CIA.

Coffelt was born in 1916 - known in Oklahoma, Missouri --- spent over 20 yrs in jails, prisons, reformatiories.

It was in the 40's that he was in the Atl system and met James Brown in 1944. Coffelt was transferred to Leavenworth and released in 1954.

Claimed Coffelt claimed to be wearing an Altimeter on his wrist.

This story goes on and on and I will not put my usual signature at the end of this because this story belongs to Byron H. Brown and most of the above is quoted or taken for his two segment story in Oct and Nov Las Vegan Magazine in 1983.

I have not found his article on line and obtained it thru hook and crook - OK FBI figure out how I did it. I obtained my copies in 1993.

I find it somewhat of a puzzle that this little known story about Cooper / Coffelt has not surfaced in all the Cooper frenzy of recent.
It is as though it has purposely been hidden.


Anyone knowing how to find the author Byron H. Brown and if he is still alive - let me know. I would love to talk to him and I am sure some of you guys would also.

Thank you Byrom for an interesting story.

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One more map. This map gives a sense of scale to
the proposition that money washed down from the Washougal which winds through a very long circuitous
path, then finally all the way west in the Columbia, and
up to Tina Bar. Or, from the LaCamas area to Tina
Bar.

The map also gives some perspective to low lying flood zones which border the Columbia all the way
between the Washougal to Tina Bar, areas which the
money coming from Washougal escaped?

Keep in mind the previous discussions about float time
by SafeCracking (Ap 1 - 08 etc)

This map is on a 1 mile scale (scale shown right of centre near the bottom). I apologise for the poor
quality of the map - it was cropped and reduced from
a larger FITS map so quality suffered.

_ _ ... ... _ _

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All,

After catching up on the post from the last few days, I wrote Rose Red (The Waymarker responsible for “D.B. Cooper and Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 305 Hijacking Money” (WM34G6)). The following are my PM and the three responses I got from her:




My PM to her:

This is an automated message from Waymarking.com

Rose Red,

I am the author of http://n467us.com and a Geocacher. I am always interested in clarifying issues relating to the Northwest 305 Hijacking.

My question is:
How did you determine the exact location of the Ingram money find on Tena Bar? The generally agreed-upon location has historically been a little south of there. (Very near the Fazio Brother's sign.)If you have better (or first-hand) information, I would like to publish it on my website.

Thanks,
Sluggo



First response:
I talked to Fazio in his driveway. Since he and his brother helped the FBI look for the money I figured that he knew where the original location was. He gave me permission to drive down there. After parking at the gate, I ducked under the chain linking the gate to the fence and walked down to the beach where he told me that the money was found. If you look at the aerial photograph you can see the beach has changed but certain landmarks are still there. I got the coordinates for Tina Bar where he told me that the money was found. It may not be the exact location but it certainly is within 25 to 50 feet. Since the public is no longer allowed on Tina Bar I made the sign at the front entrance to Fazio Bros. the place that a Waymarker has to have their photo taken. Most people believe the money was found two miles nearer Vancouver at Frenchman's Bar which is incorrect. Of course, the beach is accessible by boat but it is private property.
Maureen

Second Response:
re: DB Cooper photographs
If you use my coordinates please give me credit. You also need my permission to use my photographs plus you would need to give me credit for the photograph(s).
Maureen (Rose Red), Vancouver, WA

Third Response:
I just read my Waymark. It is Tina Bar NOT Tina's Bar (see sign on gate).
Maureen


Interpret this information as you see fit. (Like you need my permission.)



Ckret,

What do you have in the file as far as the Name (Tena Bar or Tina Bar) and the exact location?




Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

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Im glad to see we are focausing on the money again as it is without a doubt our best clue. I was wondering though since we now have a more accurate flight path wich puts the plane way west of washugul if we could rule out that as a posible path?
“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

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.

Here's a little something just for you - Happy Fourth.

George



Did you shoot that? Wow!
I see a face in that star cloud? No, not Cooper's face.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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1) There is no data that suggests any method of money arrival at Tina Bar is more likely than another. Ckret's talk about natural causes for the movement (water) being more likely is based on no data. He's just being a bad FBI agent. It's just b.s. There are 100 ways the money could have arrived there. All are equally likely based on the data we have.

2) The full data for the circumstances of the Ingram find has not been released. The full list of relatives and children present is not available. The story told by 5-year old Denise of finding the money first has been dismissed for unknown (to us) reasons.

3) There is a recurring myth that only two of the bundles had rubber bands, and that the third had none and was thinner. Be nice to confirm/deny that.

In short, there's nothing to be gained in discussing the money find as we currently know it, unless we have/get more data.

Sure you can explore all you want about water levels, but it will prove nothing. Even with the exact right water movements, the money could have arrived there thru alternate means.

One analysis that's needed is a accurate min-max lifetime of the money at Tena Bar. Also an analysis of what caused the purple colorations.

I'm scratching my head at why people want to talk about the money find more? Isn't it just a waste of time? Or am I missing something?

If you assume Cooper augered in, then you might use the money find plus hydrology to create a search area. If you believe Cooper survived, then you have to believe the money bag came off, to start wondering about hydrology theories. Either way there's no supporting data. Ckret can't prove the money bag came off, or that Cooper augered in.



On another note, were the pay phone records at PDX airport from the afternoon of 11/24/71 analyzed?

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Im glad to see we are focausing on the money again as it is without a doubt our best clue. I was wondering though since we now have a more accurate flight path wich puts the plane way west of washugul if we could rule out that as a posible path?




REPLY: I favour a more direct route to T-Bar.
Take a look at the circuitous route of the Washougal
and how it empties into the Columbia.

The Washougal was never a first choice. The Washougal became Plan-B after Merwin Lake failed,
all based on some logic attached to the flight path at the time. (1972) And the mechanism added was "flood". But when you look at the Washougal its just
too complicated a wash route to the Columbia, unless you use only the lower Washougal in which case you might as well back up and say "it was Lacamas". And
if you say that you might as well say ' well he walked
down H-205 to the Columbia'.

If you define the DZ as being near Orchards, now you
have a more direct route to the Columbia - maybe!
At least Orchards is just north of the Columbia. And
in fact the Orchards area is just north of Portland IAP
where the whole saga started. You could claim that having failed his first choice of bail (Seattle) he waited
to get back to where the crime started (Portland).

Then somehow the money gets to the Columbia and
sits, then washed down after '74 to settle at T-Bar.

Everything depends on the flight. If that can connect
Toutle (placard) and T-Bar (money) then you have a
viable theory which connects to factual evidence.

The Washougal connects to nothing except speculation
as I see this.

Here's a photo of the Washougal drainage to Columbia. A very convoluted path with many hurdles
becoife money can even get to the Columbia to be
washed anywhere.

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No. A friend of mine shot the photo. The photo is of
the central region of Scorpius near the star Antares,
a stellar nursery. The Messier number is M4 on any
star map.



Thanks Georger. I'll check it out. All I ever see are white clouds with far less detail, but still a thrill. Guess you need time exposure CCD camera setup and a tracking scope mount to get these kinds of amazingly beautiful photos? Looks like something from the Hubble scope.

Snowmman is right about no logical basis for positively concluding that the money was washed onto Tina Bar (sp?), but I think all the attention to flow and paths makes good sense as it might tell us where Cooper jumped. It is amazing to me that any jump artifacts have been found. The fact that two were found, the money and the placard, makes me think that if items as large as Coopers body and rig were out there, they likely would have been found.

Thanks to you, Sluggo, Safecrackin PLF, Snowmman and the others who have put so much research into the subject of flight path, river flows and the money find.

I remain skeptical about the money find, but it may have happened just as reported.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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No. A friend of mine shot the photo. The photo is of
the central region of Scorpius near the star Antares,
a stellar nursery. The Messier number is M4 on any
star map.




Reply: This photo was taken my merging RGBV
filtered black and white photos taken with a ST9
ccd (SBig) using an 18" cassegrain. A good 10-12"
scope will show a lot of deatil in the M4 area as well
as with any Messier object. M42 in Orion shows colour
(red-green-blue) otherwise it takes a larger telescope
to reveal colours in nebulosity. One thing that might
appeal to you is colour binaries. Try Cygnus which is full of them from Deneb back along the spine of the constellation to Alberio which is a bright colour binary.

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Im glad to see we are focausing on the money again as it is without a doubt our best clue. I was wondering though since we now have a more accurate flight path wich puts the plane way west of washugul if we could rule out that as a posible path?



Reply: Here is a map of the swath from BTG down to
Portland Intl Airport. You will see Heisson (eyewitness report), BTG VOR on V23, Orchards (possible DZ), and
Portland ITL where it all started.

If money winds up on the ground near the Columbia
in this swath, it has a much easier route to going
just up to the bend of the river thenwashing back inland in a flood, later winding up at Tina Bar.

That's one of four possible theories.

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If money winds up on the ground near the Columbia
in this swath, it has a much easier route to going
just up to the bend of the river then washing back inland in a flood, later winding up at Tina Bar.



There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those who move money by water, and those who move it by hand.

A) There is no evidence of the money moving via water displacement. Therefore we should assume first that the money was planted by humans.

B) There is no evidence of human money plant. Therefore we should assume first that the money was moved via water.

Let's examine those two statements. Which is more likely true, given what data we have? One could argue that if the second was true, we should have found more money, or the bag elsewhere. Wouldn't discovery of other money be more likely than non-discovery, given the fact of discovering 3 bundles?

So: The more likely scenario is the first.

Explain where I'm wrong, in terms of probability...

Pretend I'm putting money down on a craps table, and trying to figure out what's more likely.

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You find 3 bundles of cash, out of a larger known group, in the sand. Nearby are a river, and a road.

Your scientists tell you that the decomposition and state of the money is consistent with all decomposition happening at the find site. There is no data that suggests movement beyond the find site. You're missing the jumper, the bag, and the rest of the money. There's no data that says the jumper had to have died.

The detective in the tan coat says it's obvious the money arrived via the river.

The detective in the grey coat says it's obvious the money arrived via the road. (human plus car).

Detective Tan says "But Why?"
Detective Grey says "To achieve the effect that it did from 1980-2008..no investigation."

Or was there some other reason there was no investigation?

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