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I actually questioned dear old dad about this alleged testing of the airstairs-down-in-flight thing with the 727. He said he had heard of Boeing doing that, although he was not working there during the actual development of this jet. He was employed at the Seattle Boeing from 1967-1972 as a tool and die maker. Then he was a late victim of the Big Bad Layoffs. No...he isn't Cooper. I asked him. (Just kidding on the asking thing.) 

One thing he said was back in those days, (he didn't know about TODAY) all the line employees (non-SPEEA, non-management, your Ordinary Joes) knew exactly what was going on at all times regarding nearly the smallest thing you could imagine with 'their' jets. People talk, scuttlebutt, employee newsletter, 'word gets out,' lunch discussions, etc. One big reason was because employees knew (he says) that failures here or there could come with layoffs as well. So a constant topic of discussion among the line guys was what the f7!k was going on with progress on any particular type of jet. 

About the only thing on the line that was really 'secret' (he says) was some of the military hardware contracts. Knowledge on development and installation of that stuff was kept hush-hush to a few select employees, who never breathed a word. And the line guys weren't interested in it anyway...because they knew it WAS a secret...and you could get fired just for opening your mouth about it. 

On a side note, (and NO, this doesn't prove a thing) but we found out *alleged* suspect Bernie Geestman worked on the floor at Boeing after he quit NWA doing mechanical work for them. (After his return from Shemya Island and back to Seattle) He did work on the 727 during development. He later quit Boeing and went BACK to work for NWA for a short period...and then took a job at Foss Tugs in Seattle working as a diesel mechanic. That was his last job before he retired. 

Anyway, I guess the point is that any tests done on the 727, including whether the jet would suddenly get screwy flight characteristics if the stairs were opened in flight, was well-known to the rank-and-file at Boeing.  

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UPDATE:  It's amazing to me that suddenly the placard has become the subject of dozens of posts over at The DB Cooper Forum ever since I proposed a search for further evidence in the area the placard was found. Some additional postings, just as over-analyzed, have been appearing at Bruce S's Mountain News as well. You're all about the math over there, but you can't be certain on the winds, the exact times, or any number of factors regarding this loss of the placard from the hijacked jet. 

NONE of the people who are discussing this things have even remotely supported the idea, promoted, linked-to, or even have the courtesy to support this idea publicly. They sure do like to mention my name a lot though...mostly negatively.

I am exactly a half-step from canceling the whole project, deleting the video as well as its associated article at WordPress, and just hosting another straight Cooper Campout instead. If we do not have the FULL SUPPORT of Cooperland, I will probably nix the whole idea in the coming week and tell Nicky B not to waste his money on a plane ticket from LA to Portland, and for Darren S to stay in Idaho. 

This project is not that important to me. Why should I care about it? Frankly folks, I already have the film option on the first dramatic feature on the case, and that pays me $2,000 a year whether they make the damn movie or not. If people aren't serious, why should I spend all that money out of the AB of Seattle accounts so people who basically have never supported our efforts on ANYTHING regarding the Cooper case can reap the benefits...while refusing to support such efforts at the same time? Baloney. 

I'm seriously considering emailing April Deal at Weyerhauser and telling her 'thanks, but we've canceled the idea,' and making the announcement at Infamous Nissan that those guys, and messaging some of the other veterans of previous Cooper campouts that they can have what they want, after all. They want a straight Cooper Campout down near Doreen Lake in Oregon this June. I'm about to give it to them unless I see some meaningful s$!t that changes my mind. And lip service doesn't cut it with me. 

One thing about me, if you haven't figured it out by now, is that I give it to people straight, even when that makes me unpopular. And I'm not wasting my time, a bunch of planning, a great deal of money, or anything else in the Cooper case without full support from the major players in Cooperland. To be brutally honest, I don't need you, but if you want AB to take a shot at this project and toss everything we have at it, it's time to s$!t or get off the pot, otherwise I move on to something else. Something that will probably be a lot more fun than hiking hill and dale with metal detectors and volunteer searchers in an effort that Cooperland seems to believe is useless. 

 

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Robert, this has nothing to do with your trip. it's been going on before that even started. searching for something has nothing to do with the discussion of the path itself. if anything, you were the one who might of been motivated from all of this. 

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Actually, I've been kicking around the idea of searching the placard area ever since I published that WordPress article showing its exact location, etc. That was a year ago. The problem is....support in Cooperland is abysmal for this project. One example is me posting up a quick link to the information over at Mountain News (nothing else said) and seeing it vanish five minutes later. Other stuff as well, which tells me there just isn't any support coming from anywhere except AB of Seattle. I just figure...why waste my time and money on something unsupported by your main Cooperland folks? Somebody else should do it, I think. It's nothing personal, I just don't see any support here at all. 

This particular trip would cost me about $300 more than the usual Cooper Campout. Those have gone pretty well. Frankly, this placard search thing on private property sounds a little boring. 

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Several things to consider..

I tried to tell you that you are not really in a search area if you believe the known flight path. who would support that? why do you need anyone's support if you have people going. speaking of them. why do you trample over them with constant cancellations? 

They searched the area twice. things would still be there a couple years later. the location itself is under question. lots of variables surrounding the whole thing. I even told you to look for the door flyjack believes went with the placard. that MIGHT be in the area. if it even happened that way. you were constantly implying the main reason was to have fun make friends etc. how can we make that happen? you are not sending very good signals if the people that support you read all of this. 

I don't think we need to get more involved with the commenting on TMN's. 

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Eric is going to the location as well. it doesn't matter who gets there first. you will both have your own photo's to post on your own website. mission accomplished by both parties. 

To make it fun, like you want to do. make a placard to put in the location where the original was found. that way others will see it. make a video of the event at night around the same time the plane flew over. 

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7 hours ago, EJU said:

Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss DBC's decision to ask the authorities for parachutes versus using his own equipment.

Visit the Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/DBCooperChannel

 

 

I don't know any of the details about what went on (I'm just a skydiver mildly interested in DB Cooper), so excuse me if what I say is so obviously contradicted by the known details.  But I'm curious why you assume he didn't use his own rig?

I certainly wouldn't trust a rig given to me by the authorities if I were in his shoes, particularly when jumping into unknown terrain at night. Even if I could assume they wouldn't jimmie it so I had a total malfunction, they might make the parachute small, or with other defects, that would ensure a rapid descent and a hard, injurious, landing. And I would have also thought about a tracking device being hidden inside.

So why ask for parachutes? Could be because he assumed they'd put in a tracking device, and he would toss that out 50+ miles from where he actually exited so that any search would focus on where he wasn't. And/or use some or all of the rigs or reserves to do the final descent of some of the load he was carrying. (What did he exit with, and how much did it weigh?)

And a night jump into unknown and gnarly terrain with tall trees? He could almost be assured he'd be hung up in the trees: maybe extra rigs were for rope/lines, etc to help extricate himself.

Anyway, just some thoughts

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1 hour ago, Divalent said:

I don't know any of the details about what went on (I'm just a skydiver mildly interested in DB Cooper), so excuse me if what I say is so obviously contradicted by the known details.  But I'm curious why you assume he didn't use his own rig?

I certainly wouldn't trust a rig given to me by the authorities if I were in his shoes, particularly when jumping into unknown terrain at night. Even if I could assume they wouldn't jimmie it so I had a total malfunction, they might make the parachute small, or with other defects, that would ensure a rapid descent and a hard, injurious, landing. And I would have also thought about a tracking device being hidden inside.

So why ask for parachutes? Could be because he assumed they'd put in a tracking device, and he would toss that out 50+ miles from where he actually exited so that any search would focus on where he wasn't. And/or use some or all of the rigs or reserves to do the final descent of some of the load he was carrying. (What did he exit with, and how much did it weigh?)

And a night jump into unknown and gnarly terrain with tall trees? He could almost be assured he'd be hung up in the trees: maybe extra rigs were for rope/lines, etc to help extricate himself.

Anyway, just some thoughts

These are precisely the thoughts I expressed in my Daily DB Cooper Bite today.

I assume he owned a rig. I assume this because I'm convinced he was an experienced skydiver.

Ultimately I surmise that he went with a rig supplied by the authorities for at least one of two reasons:

1) He traveled into the country, therefore, hauling the rig with him was somewhat problematic--remember, he has to travel back home after the skyjacking is over.

2) He planned to discard the rig upon landing.

I see no value in him landing and fleeing the area with the rig. By definition, this means the rig is still out there yet to be discovered. I believe this also hints to a couple of other things that I discuss in the Daily DB Cooper Bite.

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Mr. Blevins, you said that you read that book 'Ha Ha Ha'.  You said that it's a work of fiction, but I'm curious - In that account, does the hijacker jump one of the parachutes supplied by the authorities, or does he have his own parachute?

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(edited)

Shutter says in part: 

Quote

'To make it fun, like you want to do. make a placard to put in the location where the original was found. that way others will see it. make a video of the event at night around the same time the plane flew over...' 

I had not thought of doing those things, but those are very good ideas and we will implement them with a credit on whose idea it was. And yes, your other points about a second cancellation, etc are good ones. You are right. There is no use in getting cold feet over the whole thing now. Reminds of Steve Buscemi's quote from the movie Armageddon:

Quote

"We're staying? We're going? Come on! Make up your minds..."

As far as Eric going for pictures, I don't have a problem with that. I only had a problem if he was going for pictures on the same weekend. I thought Weyerhauser security guys might get pissed off or something. If he does decide to do that anyway, (go on the same weekend) we would welcome him to the event. I will know more about gates and keys etc when April Deal, the Land Use Manager out of Castle Rock, returns from her vacation in a couple of weeks. Eric might want to contact her and maybe then he wouldn't have to walk for miles each way to get pictures. 

If we're going to do a placard, we may as well do a historical marker, too. 

On the question regarding Ha Ha HaThe character uses one of the chutes provided by the FBI. 

On the idea by Eric that Cooper was an experienced parachutist. I think Cooper had jumped before, yes. I also think he either hadn't jumped very many times, or he hadn't jumped in a long time, or he had one crappy wardrobe. Cooper came dressed in loafers and a suit, which are about the LAST things any experienced parachutist would want to jump while wearing. At the time of Cooper, Mr Peterson was the veteran of hundreds of jumps. This is one of the 'seven good reasons' I don't believe Sheridan Peterson was Cooper. In his wildest dreams, Peterson would never consider traveling thousands of miles from Tibet to hijack 305 while wearing such whuffo garb. He would have least had a pair of boots and warmer clothing. He was far too experienced to try something so completely foolish as Cooper did. Cooper sounds more like a guy who was poor, and didn't own the type of clothing required. Peterson would not have come to the party dressed like that. 

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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16 hours ago, EJU said:

Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss DBC's decision to ask the authorities for parachutes versus using his own equipment.

Eric, I think your idea that it would have been easy for Cooper to conceal and bring his own rig is mistaken. Gear of that era was fairly bulky, I think it would indeed have been difficult to conceal.

8 hours ago, Divalent said:

I certainly wouldn't trust a rig given to me by the authorities if I were in his shoes...  Even if I could assume they wouldn't jimmie it so I had a total malfunction, they might make the parachute small, or with other defects, that would ensure a rapid descent and a hard, injurious, landing.

I read somewhere that the possible reason he asked for more than one rig was so that they would give him good ones for fear that he might make someone else (Tina) jump.

2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Cooper came dressed in loafers and a suit, which are about the LAST things any experienced parachutist would want to jump while wearing.

You'd be surprised what people might wear on a jump. Suits, costumes, nothing but a rig...  It would be no problem at all to jump in a suit, which I would guess he wore to blend in with the other passengers. Just ditch the tie (which he did) so it doesn't beat you in the face. The issue would be the loafers. If they were dress shoe type loafers they might well blow off on a 200 mph exit. If they were high tops, like someone suggested they might have been, then more likely that they would stay on. Either way, I would think that would be more of a concern for hiking out of the woods than the jump itself. You said that he also had some kind of bag that you imagined might contain better boots. I would hope to agree with that.

2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

On the question regarding Ha Ha HaThe character uses one of the chutes provided by the FBI. 

The reason I asked about that is because in that other book I read that I mentioned in an earlier post, written by a jumper from that era, his 'Cooper' actually did bring his own parachute. I don't recall how he got it on the plane unnoticed. Both books, though, have the hijacker actually jumping not over Washington, but on the approach to Reno.

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(edited)

I guess my main point on attire is that a guy like Sheridan Peterson is very unlikely to plan a hijacking halfway across the globe from Tibet, and show up in a cheap suit and dress shoes. You have to understand his life history, which speaks volumes, to see why he most likely ISN'T Cooper. Threatening peoples' lives with a bomb for money would go against everything Sheridan has stood for in his life, although I think that for a while he enjoyed the notoriety of being a suspect. But he would consider doing such a thing beneath him, and anathema to his core personality. I've studied him pretty extensively, seen his emails, spoken to him on the phone, and frankly speaking...even watched his 800+ page anti-Vietnam War book get permanently screwed, and stolen, using a pack of lies. My opinion is that his chances of being Cooper are very remote, and if people have used lies against him for other things, why would not that process continue? It's easy to pick on a 92-year-old guy and steal his book to boot. 

He submitted his bio HERE while running for a school board position near where he lives in Santa Rosa, CA. 

UPDATE: I'm talking Kyle DeDominces into coming on the search campout. He's the guy who came to us with the details on the money found buried behind Christiansen's house a couple of years after KC died. Filmed at KC's old house, we had problems with traffic noise because the area has grown much in the last few years. Still, his story is compelling and was backed by his mother, as well as the Bonney Lake PD. We filed an inquiry with them about Kyle's story, gave his name, etc. They said they remembered the incident, but had no records that far back on Lost and Found. I told Kyle he should do one of the podcasts with Darren S at Cooper Vortex while he's there. 

 

Edited by RobertMBlevins

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Here are the descent rates,, I used 2ft/sec to 3ft/sec to be conservative without winds for an example of drift time. To go further we need to include many more assumptions.. an exercise in futility.

The Placard appears to be about 4"x6" as found but was about 6"x6" originally. Use size ratio range 1:1-1:25. I used the range 2ft/sec to 3ft/sec.. as a conservative estimate for ground velocity without adding in wind and distance. 

3 ft/sec = 180ft/min falling 8680 ft = 48 minutes

2 ft/sec = 120 ft/min falling 8680 ft = 72 minutes

 

The other calcs add in wind and break down the increments at altitude and give distance.

Takeaway is.. that placard would be in the air for a long time and potentially drift up to 50+ miles.

It proves that using the placard location to support an alternate flightpath is pure nonsense. Eric and Robert's calcs are way off. WAY WAY OFF. 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP78-03639A000500080001-1.pdf

The  leaflet data are an excellent proxy for the placard.. this is where you start.

descentratechart.jpeg.6e9a983d6bcb8122168e14b3417790f8.jpeg

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(edited)

The facts just don't support an alternate flightpath.

You have to dismiss the chase pilots, ATC, FBI, Air Force radar, Boeing and NorthWest. All based on (now) two questionable assumptions. 

1.) Assumption - WIND. Some still don't understand or choose to ignore the fact that the wind was assumed, it was an average of Portland and Salem over time, 8-9PM. It wasn't a fact, it was an assumption. Originally winds from the W were used then re-valuated to SSW. Data close to 8PM much CLOSER to the placard find than Portland indicates the winds were actually S (Toledo) or SSE (Sea-Tac) IN LINE WITH THE FLIGHTPATH. All data indicated that winds were the same direction through elevations but increased in speed at elevation. The winds in the area were actually ESE at 8 PM shifting to S and then SSW. 

"Information available to Portland indicates the wind believed to be in effect in the drop zone area at the time the hijacker parachuted was coming from the southwest. If that is the case and the Northwest engineers who computed the location of the drop zone and the prime line along which UNSUB presumedly fell were using southwest wind information, then the calculations of the location of the drop zone may not be accurate. A shift of wind from the west to the south would push to the east end of the prime line to the north in a counter-clockwise direction. It could cause previously unsearched territory to the west of the drop zone to be included in a new amended drop zone."

FBI part 20 page 6197-6198

8:00 PM - Toledo, Washington: Measured 3,000 feet overcast, 12 miles visibility, very light rain showers, temperature 42, wind south 5 knots. Rain began 7:35 p.m. 

9:00 PM - Toledo, Washington: 3,000 scattered measured, 3,400 overcast, 12 miles visibility, temperature 42, wind south 6 knots. Rain ended at 8:05 p.m. 

FBI part 22 page 6547

8:00 PM - Sea-Tac. Visibility 7 miles; clouds 700 'ft., scattered; estimated, 2,500 ft., overcast. Wind SSE @10 knots with light rain wnich began at 7:12 PM. 

 

2.) Assumption - PLACARD is from Cooper.

“We took the Cooper plane up after the hijacking and simulated a drop by a parachutist,’’ he said.. “We noticed the decal was missing after that but not before.”

This is problematic.. the “emergency Release” was an uncommon option to some 727-100 passenger planes. Not on cargo planes or 727-200’s. The placard would have been attached to a small emergency release access door or possibly attached above that door. The problem is the placard clearly had 5 rivets/screws attaching it, most were decals. That placard was probably affixed to the removable access door as depicted in diagrams but possibly attached to the wall above. I haven't been able to confirm that exact placard on any 727. I found one emergency release decal for a 727 but it stated "VENTRAL" airstiar not "AFT" and a little smaller, many planes had AFT AIRSTAIRS.. (side door)  it is possible that placard isn't even from a 727.

The placard shows tears where the rivets/screws would be holding it, that means there would be remains of the placard still held by those rivets/screws. There are only two possibilities, the access door and placard left the plane or the placard was torn and left the plane. This is important, the FBI never noticed any placard missing from the plane.. they didn’t notice a missing door or the remnants that would have been under the rivets/screws if attached to the wall. One of these conditions would have been readily apparent. They noticed the placard missing after simulating a parachute drop. Further, Boeing did inflight aft airstair testing in 1964/65.

 

If the emergency access door was missing, it would have been noticed, if the placard was affixed to wall part of it would remain trapped under rivets/screws and also be noticed.

Conclusion, the Placard most likely didn’t come from Cooper. 

 

Further and more important, the WIND.... the FBI estimated the winds for Cooper's LZ based on Portland, data suggests it was SSE to S near 8PM and that spins the LZ search area more NW. 

 

 

Here is an image of a non-flying 727-100 with the optional "emergency release door" it is to the right of the main ventral airstair control door with two finger/pull holes in it. This one appears to be missing the placard.

727emergencyaftstairrelease.jpeg

placard22.jpg

Edited by FLYJACK

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I dunno. Maybe we will do a search anyway, but make Kyle DeDominces into the star of the show. Funny how that money was hidden in a box designed almost exactly like the hiding spot Scott Rolle discovered in the attic of Kenny's house. A plastic bag inside to boot. Who knows? KC might be laughing at all of us right now. 

Instead of numbers and calculations, which do help sometimes I'll admit, I like the idea more of live people giving their testimony on what they saw, or what they heard, or what they know. Kyle and Denise (Geestman's niece) are good examples. 

We will see you on June 21 in Castle Rock, whether or not Cooperland decides to make it pubic or not, or support our efforts or not...which so far have been lacking. People are beginning to notice, mainly because I keep pointing this fact out to them. When people run, try to squash, or refuse to acknowledge what is obvious to others, it only gives us more credibility in the eyes of the public. I may do a WordPress on this whole situation prior to the campout. 

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10 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I dunno. Maybe we will do a search anyway, but make Kyle DeDominces into the star of the show. Funny how that money was hidden in a box designed almost exactly like the hiding spot Scott Rolle discovered in the attic of Kenny's house. A plastic bag inside to boot. Who knows? KC might be laughing at all of us right now. 

Instead of numbers and calculations, which do help sometimes I'll admit, I like the idea more of live people giving their testimony on what they saw, or what they heard, or what they know. Kyle and Denise (Geestman's niece) are good examples. 

We will see you on June 21 in Castle Rock, whether or not Cooperland decides to make it pubic or not, or support our efforts or not...which so far have been lacking. People are beginning to notice, mainly because I keep pointing this fact out to them. When people run, try to squash, or refuse to acknowledge what is obvious to others, it only gives us more credibility in the eyes of the public. I may do a WordPress on this whole situation prior to the campout. 

IMO, going out and doing a search is a great idea... never know what you might find.

Analyzing all the facts we have, my opinion is that it is unlikely the placard came off during NORJAK, that doesn't mean it couldn't have.

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(edited)

Cooper likely chose that flight because it was very short with less chance of air marshals and a light passenger load..

There is zero connection to Boeing. A Boeing employee hijacking right near Boeing is not confirmation, it is a rejection of that assumption..

Hahneman hijacked his 727 in PA he jumped in Honduras, your assumption is busted.

There is no way Cooper makes the demand to fly nonstop to Mexico knowing that it was unachievable and would be rejected. He made that demand believing it was possible and that suggests his initial plan was to jump south of the US border. He wasn't dressed for a PNW jump in that weather. Cooper jumped were he did to avoid the risk of landing in Reno. It wasn't his initial plan.

Cooper was an aviator but he wasn't a 727 expert. He got basic things wrong.

Edited by FLYJACK

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parachute,,

Hayden got the 1957 parachute returned in 1975, it was deemed "would not be used as evidence.. in this matter."

I doubt the FBI would return the chute found on the plane so soon as "not evidence", but they would return one not sent to the plane. That further suggests Cooper used Cossey's chute.

 

parachutereturnedhayden.jpeg.9666a9393e12b71865e289f4df3bedff.jpeg

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15 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:

They wouldn't be able to use it as evidence. it would be hard to link it to him. to have him in court would suggest a lot more against him vs a parachute on the plane. wasn't really used in the crime. 

Of course it would be evidence if it was the one left the plane. Cooper would have specific knowledge of it and may have handled it.

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