DB Cooper

[Robert99 37]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Agree with this. Most all reserves were 24 foot canopies. As you said, if they were that likely to cause injury they wouldn't be so ubiquitous. I've used this analogy: If you were on a sinking ship and your options were to get in a lifeboat or to put a life preserver on and jump overboard, you're going to choose the lifeboat. This is like the option of jumping with a 28 foot canopy or a 24 footer. One is much more comfortable and is less likely to result in any harm, but the alternative is still going to keep you alive. Do you have a higher likelihood of being hurt jumping into the ocean with a life preserver? Sure. But the likelihood of you being seriously injured or killed by doing so is slim. 

That said, Cooper wasn't a recreational skydiver. I feel safe saying that. If he was he'd have brought his own chute. He may have made a few jumps, but wasn't a dedicated or experienced enough skydiver to have actually owned his own gear. If we look at the copycats who weren't skydivers, 2 of the 3 suffered somewhat significant injuries. LaPoint basically broke his ankle and Mac received such a tremendous concussion that he crawled into the woods and slept for over 12 hours. Unsure if Hahneman suffered any injuries, but he was spotted the next day boarding a bus and getting a shave, so I don't believe he was. 

As for the NB-6 stuff, I'm not sure what to think of that. If it wasn't an NB-6 then it was probably something very similar. I don't think it was "identical" to the museum chute since that is a WWII chute and they were almost all tan colored. Hayden accurately related the color of the museum chute to the authorities so there is no reason to doubt that his color description was also accurate regarding Cooper's chute. Green emergency military backpacks were essentially all the same at the time. They were all variants of the NB-6 design. It's hard to tell the NB-6 and it's Air Force counterpart apart. 

So if his chute wasn't precisely an NB-6, it was something similar.  

There are just too many differences between an NB-6 backpack parachute and the and garden variety 28-foot backpack parachute for Hayden to not know the difference.

Basically, you can just ignore everything, repeat everything, that Cossey said about the parachutes. 

[CooperNWO305 146]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Military ordinance people (bomb experts) I had read the FBI transcripts came to the same conclusion -  in a nutshell they said 'either Cooper was trying to impress on some knowing eye that his bomb might be real, or it was real'. The people I consulted focused on the wiring Tina described. How could Cooper have known he was showing the bomb's contents to an electrician's daughter who would focus on colors of wires and trace their connections in addition to describing the brief case's contents in detail ! ?  The average person would probably not be able to do that with clarity ...

anyone is free to duplicate this experiment using experts - anyone!

I just don't see Cooper having a real bomb with live uninsulated wires bouncing around in his briefcase.  It would be too easy for those to hti eachother and set off the bomb.  If they were not connected to the battery and the bomb, then it would take him a few seconds or more to connect, which could mean the FBI had time to jump him.  I personally have been zapped a number of times doing electrical work thinking that my wires would not touch.  I was also shocked badly with an explosives detonator in high school, point being that live wires are dangerous.  If he was that skilled you'd think he would have rigged up a switch or done what the guy in Airport did using a wooden pull tab that when pulled connected the circuit.  But like most things in this case, I would not be surprised if the bomb was real or fake. I just lean to it being fake, especially if he traveled by plane or train in his journey.  Being found with dynamite on him would get him sent to jail, whereas a fake bomb may be able to be passed off as a gag if he was searched pre-hijack.

[Robert99 37]

28 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I just don't see Cooper having a real bomb with live uninsulated wires bouncing around in his briefcase.  It would be too easy for those to hti eachother and set off the bomb.  If they were not connected to the battery and the bomb, then it would take him a few seconds or more to connect, which could mean the FBI had time to jump him.  I personally have been zapped a number of times doing electrical work thinking that my wires would not touch.  I was also shocked badly with an explosives detonator in high school, point being that live wires are dangerous.  If he was that skilled you'd think he would have rigged up a switch or done what the guy in Airport did using a wooden pull tab that when pulled connected the circuit.  But like most things in this case, I would not be surprised if the bomb was real or fake. I just lean to it being fake, especially if he traveled by plane or train in his journey.  Being found with dynamite on him would get him sent to jail, whereas a fake bomb may be able to be passed off as a gag if he was searched pre-hijack.

In the 1971 era, if your skin color was white, you did not routinely get searched or even questioned before boarding an aircraft.  In that era, the profile for a hijacker was a young black fellow who wanted to go to Cuba, or maybe Northern Africa.

I have seen young black men pulled out of the line at the ticket/boarding counters and questioned but all passed the "interview" and were allowed to board, and we made it to our destination without a problem.

[SeventyWonderful 18]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:56 PM, georger said:

If anyone thinks they are going to get a social-psychological profile of Cooper based only on the drink he ordered at the start of his tenure aboard 305 - guess again.

Actually there are a number of things we can deduce from Cooper's drink order.

On a practical level he needed to have ordered a drink to engage with Schaffner, to size her up to determine whether or not to continue with the plan, and provide an opportunity to hand her the note.

Him spilling his drink attests to his nervousness despite his quiet and calm exterior.  This speaks to him being a novice as far as the hijacking goes.

Him sitting in the back of the plane with an alias cribbed from a comic book aviator, wearing dark glasses and sipping bourbon while committing a massive and well-planned heist just like Thomas Crown, speaks to an element of fantasy.  Remember in the movie the fabulously wealthy Thomas Crown was also a pilot, a master manipulator, had a grudge against the system, and pulled the final heist to prove himself against the system (and outfox those in pursuit).  Compare Cooper's giddiness when getting the ransom to the laughter at the end of the clip.

(On a similar note, I wonder if by providing the ransom money in a canvas bag, just like the ones seen in the Thomas Crown Affair, the bank authorities were also deliberately and sardonically referencing the movie.)

His perhaps middle class choice of drink on the flight would be in line with his clip-on tie from Penney's and cheap attache case, which was noted to be new, I believe.  

His drink choice also lines up with him smoking Raleigh's on the flight.  It could be he was older or more conservative in his outlook or maybe smoking a less palatable brand of cigarettes was a stratagem to keep from smoking too much during the hijacking.  He may not have minded the way they tasted, but he certainly wasn't smoking Raleigh's because of their taste.

His offering to tip the stewardesses during the hijacking also speaks to his working or middle class origin.  Offering to tip when tipping is not permitted is gauche.  

You can also say that his lack of awareness of Northwest Orient's no tipping policy could mean that he was not employed by Northwest or was otherwise unfamiliar with their day to day operations.

This is dashed off because I'm in a hurry, but musing about Cooper's drink choice helps with looking at the case facts through a novel lens.  It's always fun to speculate and provides a few minutes respite from current affairs.

[SeventyWonderful 18]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:56 PM, georger said:

 

 

7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Agree with this. Most all reserves were 24 foot canopies. As you said, if they were that likely to cause injury they wouldn't be so ubiquitous. I've used this analogy: If you were on a sinking ship and your options were to get in a lifeboat or to put a life preserver on and jump overboard, you're going to choose the lifeboat. This is like the option of jumping with a 28 foot canopy or a 24 footer. One is much more comfortable and is less likely to result in any harm, but the alternative is still going to keep you alive. Do you have a higher likelihood of being hurt jumping into the ocean with a life preserver? Sure. But the likelihood of you being seriously injured or killed by doing so is slim. 

That said, Cooper wasn't a recreational skydiver. I feel safe saying that. If he was he'd have brought his own chute. He may have made a few jumps, but wasn't a dedicated or experienced enough skydiver to have actually owned his own gear. If we look at the copycats who weren't skydivers, 2 of the 3 suffered somewhat significant injuries. LaPoint basically broke his ankle and Mac received such a tremendous concussion that he crawled into the woods and slept for over 12 hours. Unsure if Hahneman suffered any injuries, but he was spotted the next day boarding a bus and getting a shave, so I don't believe he was. 

As for the NB-6 stuff, I'm not sure what to think of that. If it wasn't an NB-6 then it was probably something very similar. I don't think it was "identical" to the museum chute since that is a WWII chute and they were almost all tan colored. Hayden accurately related the color of the museum chute to the authorities so there is no reason to doubt that his color description was also accurate regarding Cooper's chute. Green emergency military backpacks were essentially all the same at the time. They were all variants of the NB-6 design. It's hard to tell the NB-6 and it's Air Force counterpart apart. 

So if his chute wasn't precisely an NB-6, it was something similar.  

Thinking Cooper's parachute choice is what ultimately strikes Ted Braden as a suspect.  Braden certainly would have gone with the more reliable option, yes?

Edited October 17, 2023 by SeventyWonderful

[SeventyWonderful 18]

On 10/16/2023 at 1:57 PM, Chaucer said:

Here's another break-in report. Seems to be a rash of break-ins in the FBI DZ the night of the hijacking. I doubt Cooper was responsible for all of them. 

It would be interesting to check either the news or the arrest records in the weeks following the hijacking to see if anyone was charged with the break-ins occurring the night in question.

[SeventyWonderful 18]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I just don't see Cooper having a real bomb with live uninsulated wires bouncing around in his briefcase.  It would be too easy for those to hti eachother and set off the bomb.  If they were not connected to the battery and the bomb, then it would take him a few seconds or more to connect, which could mean the FBI had time to jump him.  I personally have been zapped a number of times doing electrical work thinking that my wires would not touch.  I was also shocked badly with an explosives detonator in high school, point being that live wires are dangerous.  If he was that skilled you'd think he would have rigged up a switch or done what the guy in Airport did using a wooden pull tab that when pulled connected the circuit.  But like most things in this case, I would not be surprised if the bomb was real or fake. I just lean to it being fake, especially if he traveled by plane or train in his journey.  Being found with dynamite on him would get him sent to jail, whereas a fake bomb may be able to be passed off as a gag if he was searched pre-hijack.

I don't think he would take a chance with a live bomb setting off accidentally when he could persuade  twentysomething year old stewardesses that what he had was a real bomb.  His smoking next to it reinforces that.

That's not to say he wasn't dangerous.  He would have to have had a gun in case things went south in the air either with the passengers or the crew, but especially on the ground if he were injured in the jump and needed to get away.  A gun would make stealing a car afterwards that much easier, for example.

Edited October 17, 2023 by SeventyWonderful

[olemisscub 466]

33 minutes ago, SeventyWonderful said:

 

Thinking Cooper's parachute choice is what ultimately strikes Ted Braden as a suspect.  Braden certainly would have gone with the more reliable option, yes?

I don’t think canopy size would have mattered much to a guy like Braden. He found have handled whatever. He might have gone with which pack he thought looked newer or better. Besides, SOG guys jumped with 24 foot chutes.

Even though Flyjack did find an example of a WWII olive drab emergency pack, they were rare. Thus, I feel safe deducing that Cooper’s pack, being olive drab, was a newer pack than the WWII model he left on the plane.

[SeventyWonderful 18]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I don’t think canopy size would have mattered much to a guy like Braden. He found have handled whatever. He might have gone with which pack he thought looked newer or better. Besides, SOG guys jumped with 24 foot chutes.

Even though Flyjack did find an example of a WWII olive drab emergency pack, they were rare. Thus, I feel safe deducing that Cooper’s pack, being olive drab, was a newer pack than the WWII model he left on the plane.

Thank you for the explanation.  That makes sense, and it helps when sifting through the conflicting reports about the parachutes.

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I don’t think canopy size would have mattered much to a guy like Braden. He found have handled whatever. He might have gone with which pack he thought looked newer or better. Besides, SOG guys jumped with 24 foot chutes.

Even though Flyjack did find an example of a WWII olive drab emergency pack, they were rare. Thus, I feel safe deducing that Cooper’s pack, being olive drab, was a newer pack than the WWII model he left on the plane.

 

Not true, non tan WW2 era containers are not rare... lots out there.

Generally, tan ones were sold to the public... not exclusively but that is probably why the museum chute was referred to as a civilian chute though it may or may not have been originally.

Sage Green was rare and later, the jungle colour, not Olive Drab.

The canopy that Cooper used was the newer of the two but the container date is unknown and being Olive Drab does not date it as newer than a tan one.

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ww2-us-navy-parachute-container-harness-original

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ww2-pioneer-parachute-1940s-3770612246

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/parachute-type-8-model8-b-type-pack-3843962099

https://www.ogallerie.com/auction-lot/us-military-parachute-model-p3-b-24-by-pioneer-pa_13E4434BC1

[FLYJACK 654]

WW2 era USMC military knapsack,,,

Is this what Cooper wanted the money in...

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Not true, non tan WW2 era containers are not rare... lots out there.

Generally, tan ones were sold to the public... not exclusively but that is probably why the museum chute was referred to as a civilian chute though it may or may not have been originally.

Sage Green was rare and later, the jungle colour, not Olive Drab.

The canopy that Cooper used was the newer of the two but the container date is unknown and being Olive Drab does not date it as newer than a tan one.

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ww2-us-navy-parachute-container-harness-original

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ww2-pioneer-parachute-1940s-3770612246

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/parachute-type-8-model8-b-type-pack-3843962099

https://www.ogallerie.com/auction-lot/us-military-parachute-model-p3-b-24-by-pioneer-pa_13E4434BC1

Interesting. Just don’t recall seeing many from WWII that weren’t tan. But there you go. 

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

WW2 era USMC military knapsack,,,

Is this what Cooper wanted the money in...

Knapsack is just a general term for something you can wear as a backpack IMO. Seems obvious he wanted to be able to wear it backwards and strap his harness on over it. Zero chance of losing the money if you jump like that. 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Knapsack is just a general term for something you can wear as a backpack IMO. Seems obvious he wanted to be able to wear it backwards and strap his harness on over it. Zero chance of losing the money if you jump like that. 

Sure, but let's put the term "knapsack" in the context of a 50 year old ex military guy who is asking for parachutes using WW2 vernacular...

Haversack, rucksack, backpack and knapsack,,,,  try and sort all those out...

[olemisscub 466]

45 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Sure, but let's put the term "knapsack" in the context of a 50 year old ex military guy who is asking for parachutes using WW2 vernacular...

Haversack, rucksack, backpack and knapsack,,,,  try and sort all those out...

I think you’re thinking too much into it. He just said he wants the money in a knapsack. Not sure he still had his service days on the brain from 25 years earlier. And even if he was, why would he expect them to bring him something similar.

Knapsack is just a ubiquitous term for a bag with shoulder straps. If he wanted something specific he could have asked for it. 
 

Btw, I’m beginning to think that it may have been briefly in a “knapsack”, per his request. If you read Milnes’ 302 he says Grinnell brought the money into the NWA office in a leather satchel and the canvas bag was removed from this satchel. My thinking is that at some point they put the canvas bag into this satchel intending for it to be the knapsack. For whatever reason the bag was taken out of the satchel and was hurriedly handed to Lee without them remembering why it was in the leather satchel in the first place.

Interestingly, Bill Grinnell has no memory at all of this leather bag. He maintains it was always in the money bag. But with respect to Grinnell, when we have a document from the night of the hijacking written by the Seattle SAC that contradicts his memory from 50 years earlier, I tend to lean toward that 302 being the truth. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

41 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I think you’re thinking too much into it. He just said he wants the money in a knapsack. Not sure he still had his service days on the brain from 25 years earlier. And even if he was, why would he expect them to bring him something similar.

Knapsack is just a ubiquitous term for a bag with shoulder straps. If he wanted something specific he could have asked for it. 
 

Btw, I’m beginning to think that it may have been briefly in a “knapsack”, per his request. If you read Milnes’ 302 he says Grinnell brought the money into the NWA office in a leather satchel and the canvas bag was removed from this satchel. My thinking is that at some point they put the canvas bag into this satchel intending for it to be the knapsack. For whatever reason the bag was taken out of the satchel and was hurriedly handed to Lee without them remembering why it was in the leather satchel in the first place.

Interestingly, Bill Grinnell has no memory at all of this leather bag. He maintains it was always in the money bag. But with respect to Grinnell, when we have a document from the night of the hijacking written by the Seattle SAC that contradicts his memory from 50 years earlier, I tend to lean toward that 302 being the truth. 

Those sealed leather bank satchels are use to transport cash,,,  not a knapsack..

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/spokane-seattle-first-nat-bank-leather-loomis-money

 

[georger 197]

12 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I just don't see Cooper having a real bomb with live uninsulated wires bouncing around in his briefcase.  It would be too easy for those to hti eachother and set off the bomb.  If they were not connected to the battery and the bomb, then it would take him a few seconds or more to connect, which could mean the FBI had time to jump him.  I personally have been zapped a number of times doing electrical work thinking that my wires would not touch.  I was also shocked badly with an explosives detonator in high school, point being that live wires are dangerous.  If he was that skilled you'd think he would have rigged up a switch or done what the guy in Airport did using a wooden pull tab that when pulled connected the circuit.  But like most things in this case, I would not be surprised if the bomb was real or fake. I just lean to it being fake, especially if he traveled by plane or train in his journey.  Being found with dynamite on him would get him sent to jail, whereas a fake bomb may be able to be passed off as a gag if he was searched pre-hijack.

ok. wonderful. that solves that Cooper mystery! 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Those sealed leather bank satchels are use to transport cash,,,  not a knapsack..

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/spokane-seattle-first-nat-bank-leather-loomis-money

 

Good stuff. 

[olemisscub 466]

I know Flyjack spotted this years ago, but this doesn't say anything about red x's or red flaps. Obviously the first redaction is Johnson, which I've filled in. But this second redaction is what? It must surely be a name since it is redacted. Although I wouldn't put it past the redactor to redact "nonoperational" or something like that, because they can get cute like that at times with these redactions. On the chance that it wasn't an individual's name, I tried to make the following fit the spaces, and they do not fit. The second line of the redaction has four spaces, so I considered that it might stand for "only." So I tried "demonstration only", "classroom only", "training only". The only thing on that line of thinking that I could come up with that fit was "nonfunctio-/-nal". 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

I know Flyjack spotted this years ago, but this doesn't say anything about red x's or red flaps. Obviously the first redaction is Johnson, which I've filled in. But this second redaction is what? It must surely be a name since it is redacted. Although I wouldn't put it past the redactor to redact "nonoperational" or something like that, because they can get cute like that at times with these redactions. On the chance that it wasn't an individual's name, I tried to make the following fit the spaces, and they do not fit. The second line of the redaction has four spaces, so I considered that it might stand for "only." So I tried "demonstration only", "classroom only", "training only". The only thing on that line of thinking that I could come up with that fit was "nonfunctio-/-nal". 

I realize it says number two container but...

Does "SSS # 5 and COSS" fit... looks like it

 

 

[olemisscub 466]

18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I realize it says number two container but...

Does "SSS # 5 and COSS" fit... looks like it

 

nope

[olemisscub 466]

both of these fit. Although I don't think it's the first one because "instructional" could have fit on that line without having to put a break in it. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

25 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

nope

you forgot the "and"

[olemisscub 466]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

you forgot the "and"

the "and" would make it all fit, but that's assuming the author put a space in between # and 5. Also not sure if they'd redact that. It's not redacted anywhere else in the Vault files. But then again, the redactors have proven to be inconsistent. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

the "and" would make it all fit, but that's assuming the author put a space in between # and 5. Also not sure if they'd redact that. It's not redacted anywhere else in the Vault files. But then again, the redactors have proven to be inconsistent. 

There is a space on the patch between the # and the 5.