DB Cooper

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Heisson Store was never confirmed,, it is probably 90%... I looked for other general stores in that area in that era, 10 miles South of the Dam, and didn't find any close.

The South Fork Lewis is the river near Heisson that flows to the Columbia.

If a high water event caused the money to flow to the Columbia it would end up at the mouth of the Lewis River downstream of TBAR...

There were clamshell dredge operations in the Columbia that barged material upstream and dumped above TBAR..

IMO, this is a long shot. It would be hard to imagine a rubber banded bundle of 3-5 packets remaining together for that journey.

It would be hard to imagine a rubber banded bundle of 3-5 packets remaining together for that journey.  .......... unless they were in a bag with the rest of the money and the bag or part of the bag was transported to TBar, in some fashion.

Post Ingram discovery, the whole area  including all of the wingdams were searched by various divers operating out of Aquatic Sports at Portland, including the whole area at the junction of the Lewis and Columbia. The owner of Aquatic Sports kept a log of various people reporting their searches but after he died that log was lost (according to his son) so there is no way to even known the names of all of the people who searched and reported  ....  and apparently the FBI at Portland did not keep a log of searchers phoning in results to them ? Tosaw was not alone among people searching the Tina Bar area post Ingram-find. 

Tosaw pestered the Portland Office constantly for any 'news' following the TBar excavation ...  the office got tired of all of his phone calls asking for the latest info ...

I dont understand why people are so resistant to accept the obvious suspect!  The dredging in 1974 which dumped spoils at Tina Bar close to where Ingram money was found. Its almost as if there is some agreement to avoid that actual event - at all costs!     

The 1974 dredging that placed spoils on Tena Bar is THE DEAD HORSE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD - DUHHHHHH!  ??? Its amazing to me how people ignore it and avoid it at all costs, starting with Tom Kaye!  

Edited October 16, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 103]

 

Here's another break-in report. Seems to be a rash of break-ins in the FBI DZ the night of the hijacking. I doubt Cooper was responsible for all of them. 

[georger 197]

Cooper searchers and consultants pre and post 1980 and the Ingram find - Tosaw is not on this list. The people listed largely ignored Tosaw . Some of the people listed were either consulted by the FBI and interfaced with the FBI during its excavation in 1980 ... or went to Tena Bar by boat or car and engaged FBI diggers during the excavation. In any event this list of people had a professional long time interest or involvement with the Columbia River - some voiced their opinions publicly about how Cooper money might have wound up on Tena Bar. Some of these people had professional relationships with Dr. Leonard Palmer and knew him well....

Divers and search teams:

*Aquatic Sports – Portland, John Powelson (deceased),  Jeff Powelson Portland 1966 to present. Powelson journal of searchers and searches lost after his death ?

*Walt James… long time Columbia salvage consulted with Portland FBI/Himelsbach.

 

Salvage and related People:

Sid Macken – “Black Water”. History of diving Columbia, Historical Diving Soc., Santa Barbara CA 805-934-1660

*John Glen – found parachute back in 1972 on Mt Hood ?  was judged not Cooper’s.

*William Carpa  

*Glenn Rassmussen

Lars Larson FM101 talk radio … KXLFM101 – impossible to get. Followed and catalogued Columbia private searching post Ingram find and along with John Powelson kept a log of people's searches and results .... ran a radio talk show and interviewed a number of people about the Cooper case and the Ingram find ...  may have believed that the money at Tena Bar was related to 1974 dredging ...

(the above is just a partial list!)

 

Tosaw divers – crews:

Dates: . . .

Curtis W Rainey, Debra Rainey, Bob Rainey, ‘Rod’ Rodney Rainey. All pro divers.  

Blake Payne

Galen Cook

Tosaw Crews:

1982-85 ran two crews: Curtis Rainey lives in Idaho, Debra Rainey, Jamie Winkle (acquired divers), Blake Payne had new boat with sonar, Bill Sweeny owned a boat died 2017 auto accident, checked wingdams and dragged main channel etc,  Worked closely with salvage operators relying on their experience and advice ...

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, georger said:

It would be hard to imagine a rubber banded bundle of 3-5 packets remaining together for that journey.  .......... unless they were in a bag with the rest of the money and the bag or part of the bag was transported to TBar, in some fashion.

Post Ingram discovery, the whole area  including all of the wingdams were searched by various divers operating out of Aquatic Sports at Portland, including the whole area at the junction of the Lewis and Columbia. The owner of Aquatic Sports kept a log of various people reporting their searches but after he died that log was lost (according to his son) so there is no way to even known the names of all of the people who searched and reported  ....  and apparently the FBI at Portland did not keep a log of searchers phoning in results to them ? Tosaw was not alone among people searching the Tina Bar area post Ingram-find. 

Tosaw pestered the Portland Office constantly for any 'news' following the TBar excavation ...  the office got tired of all of his phone calls asking for the latest info ...

I dont understand why people are so resistant to accept the obvious suspect!  The dredging in 1974 which dumped spoils at Tina Bar close to where Ingram money was found. Its almost as if there is some agreement to avoid that actual event - at all costs!     

The 1974 dredging that placed spoils on Tena Bar is THE DEAD HORSE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD - DUHHHHHH!  ??? Its amazing to me how people ignore it and avoid it at all costs, starting with Tom Kaye!  

Even in a bag it it is hard to believe a bundle could make that journey, the rubber bands would have weakened/deteriorated.

Problem with the 1974 dredge is that it was a suction dredge, a rubber banded bundle in or out of a bag wouldn't have made through as was found..

The 1974 dredge operation is a red herring, there was shoreline mitigation and material moved up and down the river.. 

 

The most likely scenario is that the money went into the river upstream of TBAR in Spring during a water event higher than the money find spot.. 

 

[georger 197]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Even in a bag it it is hard to believe a bundle could make that journey, the rubber bands would have weakened/deteriorated.

Problem with the 1974 dredge is that it was a suction dredge, a rubber banded bundle in or out of a bag wouldn't have made through as was found..

The 1974 dredge operation is a red herring, there was shoreline mitigation and material moved up and down the river.. 

 

The most likely scenario is that the money went into the river upstream of TBAR in Spring during a water event higher than the money find spot.. 

 

Another negative against whole bag being deposited at TBar is 'where did all the rest of the twenties go'! and nobody ever saw so much as a hint of money on Tena Bar until the Ingram find. 

Either all of the money was buried out of sight, or ?  

There are also these reports of fist sized clumps of organic matter (none of them bagged for analysis!) .... which could be anything. Dorwin keeps saying these clumps could have been decomposed money ?  

It may be a loss that Lars Larson was never interviewed -  he interviewed divers and salvage people and has probably heard every theory anyone ever expressed ... these are people who had no vested interest in the Cooper case but did have a few opinions based on long experience with the Columbia and related matters. All of that data and knowledge has apparently been lost unless somebody can find and interview Mr. Larson if he is still alive?   I place a large value in what ordinary working people know and think. I come from that tradition. A number of those people went to Tena Bar during the excavation with their boats and talked to FBI diggers based on their vast experience with salvage work and the Columbia  ... and there is nothing from those exchanges, so far.

Edited October 16, 2023 by georger

[Andrade1812 51]

15 hours ago, georger said:

Another negative against whole bag being deposited at TBar is 'where did all the rest of the twenties go'! and nobody ever saw so much as a hint of money on Tena Bar until the Ingram find. 

Either all of the money was buried out of sight, or ?  

There are also these reports of fist sized clumps of organic matter (none of them bagged for analysis!) .... which could be anything. Dorwin keeps saying these clumps could have been decomposed money ?  

It may be a loss that Lars Larson was never interviewed -  he interviewed divers and salvage people and has probably heard every theory anyone ever expressed ... these are people who had no vested interest in the Cooper case but did have a few opinions based on long experience with the Columbia and related matters. All of that data and knowledge has apparently been lost unless somebody can find and interview Mr. Larson if he is still alive?   I place a large value in what ordinary working people know and think. I come from that tradition. A number of those people went to Tena Bar during the excavation with their boats and talked to FBI diggers based on their vast experience with salvage work and the Columbia  ... and there is nothing from those exchanges, so far.

What would you ask Lars Larson? He's still doing syndicated radio out of Portland.

[olemisscub 466]

Here's a map a news article published about McNally's hijacking. I'm quite certain they have his jump spot incredibly wrong. The distance between his jump and where the money bag was found (which would have gone straight down as soon as he opened his chute) is 5 miles. That's essentially impossible. Also, the submachine gun would have fallen straight down as well. The aircraft was flying northeast at the time, so I'm guessing the actual flight path (starting from where the gun was found) would be more in the direction of the money location than their "jump" location. Also, Mac said he absolutely didn't jump over a city when I asked him. 

He had not gone very far at all from his landing spot when he was given a ride by the Sheriff. He emerged from the woods where he had dragged the parachute and fallen asleep and started looking around and that's essentially when the Sheriff found him. Worth noting that I put "Mac picked up by sheriff" at the same spot where they have "gun found." They're referring to the spot where they found the pistol. Mac had a pistol with him when he emerged from the woods and he slyly tossed it into a ditch off the side of the road when the Sheriff told him to hop in. 

The distance between where the money was found and where he was given a ride is about 2 miles. That sounds about right with what we know about the distance Cooper may have traveled. I've been unable to find any data about which direction the wind was blowing during his job. Found plenty of archival data about the temperature, etc, just not the wind direction. I expect that it was blowing southwest. The spot where his pants were found (southwest of the flight path) seems to be a good indicator of this as well. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

Why do people keep calling the chute Cooper used an NB6??

It is very unlikely it was an NB6.

The only reference is Cossey who claimed it was a modified NB6 to an NB8 with a  28' chute. Cossey also changed the colour from the initial report. Cossey is completely unreliable.

Only one of the two back chutes was described as a Pioneer by Cossey, however packing cards describe them both as Pioneer chutes. Pioneer does make NB6's but only the chute left behind was referred to as a Pioneer.

Hayden thought they were the same.

Also, the packing card missing a back chute was a 24'..  NB6's are 26'..

So, for the chute Cooper used to be an NB6 then that second packing card found in the chute pocket belongs to another chute entirely..  extremely unlikely.

 

The other thing is the chute Cooper used was Haydens' bailout chute,, Hayden was a big guy, there is no reason to believe using a 24' chute would necessarily cause severe injury or death.. Chutes of different sizes can be made to descend at the same rate...  A 24' chute doesn't make a jump less survivable. 24' chutes were very common. If they were that bad they wouldn't use them.

Using a 24' chute does not infer death or serious injury.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

18 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Using a 24' chute does not infer death or serious injury.

 

Agree with this. Most all reserves were 24 foot canopies. As you said, if they were that likely to cause injury they wouldn't be so ubiquitous. I've used this analogy: If you were on a sinking ship and your options were to get in a lifeboat or to put a life preserver on and jump overboard, you're going to choose the lifeboat. This is like the option of jumping with a 28 foot canopy or a 24 footer. One is much more comfortable and is less likely to result in any harm, but the alternative is still going to keep you alive. Do you have a higher likelihood of being hurt jumping into the ocean with a life preserver? Sure. But the likelihood of you being seriously injured or killed by doing so is slim. 

That said, Cooper wasn't a recreational skydiver. I feel safe saying that. If he was he'd have brought his own chute. He may have made a few jumps, but wasn't a dedicated or experienced enough skydiver to have actually owned his own gear. If we look at the copycats who weren't skydivers, 2 of the 3 suffered somewhat significant injuries. LaPoint basically broke his ankle and Mac received such a tremendous concussion that he crawled into the woods and slept for over 12 hours. Unsure if Hahneman suffered any injuries, but he was spotted the next day boarding a bus and getting a shave, so I don't believe he was. 

As for the NB-6 stuff, I'm not sure what to think of that. If it wasn't an NB-6 then it was probably something very similar. I don't think it was "identical" to the museum chute since that is a WWII chute and they were almost all tan colored. Hayden accurately related the color of the museum chute to the authorities so there is no reason to doubt that his color description was also accurate regarding Cooper's chute. Green emergency military backpacks were essentially all the same at the time. They were all variants of the NB-6 design. It's hard to tell the NB-6 and it's Air Force counterpart apart. 

So if his chute wasn't precisely an NB-6, it was something similar.  

[olemisscub 466]

46 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Also, the packing card missing a back chute was a 24'..  NB6's are 26'..

Don't think this matters. You can put a 24 in a container designed for a 26 just like you can stuff a 28 footer into a container designed for a 26. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

Agree with this. Most all reserves were 24 foot canopies. As you said, if they were that likely to cause injury they wouldn't be so ubiquitous. I've used this analogy: If you were on a sinking ship and your options were to get in a lifeboat or to put a life preserver on and jump overboard, you're going to choose the lifeboat. This is like the option of jumping with a 28 foot canopy or a 24 footer. One is much more comfortable and is less likely to result in any harm, but the alternative is still going to keep you alive. Do you have a higher likelihood of being hurt jumping into the ocean with a life preserver? Sure. But the likelihood of you being seriously injured or killed by doing so is slim. 

That said, Cooper wasn't a recreational skydiver. I feel safe saying that. If he was he'd have brought his own chute. He may have made a few jumps, but wasn't a dedicated or experienced enough skydiver to have actually owned his own gear. If we look at the copycats who weren't skydivers, 2 of the 3 suffered somewhat significant injuries. LaPoint basically broke his ankle and Mac received such a tremendous concussion that he crawled into the woods and slept for over 12 hours. Unsure if Hahneman suffered any injuries, but he was spotted the next day boarding a bus and getting a shave, so I don't believe he was. 

As for the NB-6 stuff, I'm not sure what to think of that. If it wasn't an NB-6 then it was probably something very similar. I don't think it was "identical" to the museum chute since that is a WWII chute and they were almost all tan colored. Hayden accurately related the color of the museum chute to the authorities so there is no reason to doubt that his color description was also accurate regarding Cooper's chute. Green emergency military backpacks were essentially all the same at the time. They were all variants of the NB-6 design. It's hard to tell the NB-6 and it's Air Force counterpart apart. 

So if his chute wasn't precisely an NB-6, it was something similar.  

It is always hard to say things with absolutes in this case.

But, I don't see any evidence Cooper was a recreational skydiver..  on the contrary... besides the things mentioned he was 45-50 and at that time it was a young man's sport. A rec jumper that age was extremely rare.

The first reports for Cooper's chute were olive drab with a tan cotton harness...

Cossey claimed Sage Green nylon with a Sage Green nylon harness... as a 28' modified NB6.

A 24' chute is not an NB6..  Cossey's claims are unreliable.

Cooper's chute was probably olive drab...  

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Don't think this matters. You can put a 24 in a container designed for a 26 just like you can stuff a 28 footer into a container designed for a 26. 

Disagree.

I am not a rigger but I have asked people and they say it isn't typically done..

It requires many modifications making it not worthwhile. Easier to just put in a 26'.

Like dropping a V8 in a Miata.. you can do it but it isn't typical.

The chute being a 24' strongly indicates it was not an NB6/8.. (virtually eliminates)

 

[olemisscub 466]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

A 24' chute is not an NB6..  Cossey's claims are unreliable.

 

By this logic the museum chute isn't a P2-B-24 since it has a 26 foot canopy. 

Canopy size and intended pack size don't have to match. 

[FLYJACK 654]

21 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

By this logic the museum chute isn't a P2-B-24 since it has a 26 foot canopy. 

Canopy size and intended pack size don't have to match. 

They don't have to match but not at all equivalent,

Putting a bigger chute in an older container was common due to the later availability of surplus chutes.. putting a smaller chute in is unheard of for that era. There is no reason for going smaller on a bailout rig. It doesn't make sense. Like putting a 4cyl engine in Corvette..  technically you could do it but it makes no sense.

Ask Mark about it.

Edited October 17, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

They don't have to match but not at all equivalent,

Putting a bigger chute in an older chute was common due to the later availability of surplus chutes.. putting a smaller chute in is unheard of for that era. There is no reason for going smaller on a bailout rig. It doesn't make sense.

Ask Mark about it.

Regardless, nearly all green emergency packs were some sort of a NB-6 variant at the time. Whether it was an NB-6 or one of the variants doesn't really matter. All we can be certain of is that it was a 24 foot canopy. I believe through my numerous FB lives and postings on FB that I've been able to successfully convince the larger community of this fact. I think it's Cooper canon now. So, good work finding that in the 302's. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

Regardless, nearly all green emergency packs were some sort of a NB-6 variant at the time. Whether it was an NB-6 or one of the variants doesn't really matter. All we can be certain of is that it was a 24 foot canopy. I believe through my numerous FB lives and postings on FB that I've been able to successfully convince the larger community of this fact. I think it's Cooper canon now. So, good work finding that in the 302's. 

But the green description ONLY came from Cossey.

It was initially described as olive drab not green.

[olemisscub 466]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

But the green description ONLY came from Cossey.

It was initially described as olive drab not green.

We're kinda splitting hairs here, at least on my end. When I say "green" I'm referring to it being olive drab. I'm essentially saying green to denote it as being different than the tan chutes. Hayden's description of the coloring is going to be more accurate than Cossey's, certainly. 

I honestly don't see how Cossey could accurately remember the exact color of the harness and pack six months after he packed it. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

We're kinda splitting hairs here, at least on my end. When I say "green" I'm referring to it being olive drab. I'm essentially saying green to denote it as being different than the tan chutes. Hayden's description of the coloring is going to be more accurate than Cossey's, certainly. 

I honestly don't see how Cossey could accurately remember the exact color of the harness and pack six months after he packed it. 

I thought your argument was the container was Sage Green and NB6's are Sage Green..  they are mostly, but I have found some that are also olive drab..

The point is not all Olive Drab containers are NB6's...  therefore the colour does not make it an NB6...

There are many "vintage" Pioneer parachutes that are not tan and are Olive Drab and not NB6's..

Pioneer P3 - B - 24.. not tan

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/us-ww-2-pioneer-parachute-p3-b-24

The chute Cooper used was a 24' olive drab Pioneer...

Given everything, it is extremely unlikely that the chute Cooper used was an NB6...

Cossey is the only source for that claim.

Edited October 17, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 197]

5 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

What would you ask Lars Larson? He's still doing syndicated radio out of Portland.

I would ask him: based on everyone he's ever talked to about this case, how do you think the Cooper money got to Tena Bar ?

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I thought your argument was the container was Sage Green and NB6's are Sage Green..  they are mostly, but I have found some that are also olive drab..

The point is not all Olive Drab containers are NB6's...  therefore the colour does not make it an NB6...

There are many "vintage" Pioneer parachutes that are not tan and are Olive Drab and not NB6's..

Pioneer P3 - B - 24.. not tan

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/us-ww-2-pioneer-parachute-p3-b-24

The chute Cooper used was a 24' olive drab Pioneer...

Given everything, it is extremely unlikely that the chute Cooper used was an NB6...

Cossey is the only source for that claim.

Good find on an OD WWII emergency pack. Never seen one that color that is that old. I suppose Cossey could have given Hayden two crummy old WWII packs. 

Not sure why Cossey would refer to it as an NB6 though. Let me be clear, I have a hard time believing that Cossey could remember these details of a random pack that he made 5 months earlier. But it's still notable that he specifically called it an NB-6. 

Regardless, I don't think the pack matters too much. 

[FLYJACK 654]

35 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Good find on an OD WWII emergency pack. Never seen one that color that is that old. I suppose Cossey could have given Hayden two crummy old WWII packs. 

Not sure why Cossey would refer to it as an NB6 though. Let me be clear, I have a hard time believing that Cossey could remember these details of a random pack that he made 5 months earlier. But it's still notable that he specifically called it an NB-6. 

Regardless, I don't think the pack matters too much. 

Cossey was very specific,, he said it was a customized NB6/8 with a 28' canopy, Sage Green nylon container and harness...

He was clearly describing a specific container/chute to him but not the one Cooper used.

Perhaps it was his back chute at Issaquah that he incorrectly believed was taken with the fronts...  but never corrected it.

The other odd thing is,, would Cossey even have a bailout rig?? He was a pilot, but would he use a non steerable bailout rig,, not likely. 

The container matters because they were searching for the wrong one and people still refer to it as an NB6.... which is extremely unlikely.

Edited October 17, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

On the bomb,,,, I lean towards it being real but do not believe he would have jumped with it.. too risky and hard to hold/attach.

It was probably FBI "propaganda" to suggest the bomb was road flares.. because dynamite wasn't red... dynamite was red or brown.

He may have had a concealed weapon as well... no evidence for that.

 

 

[georger 197]

Had the FBI shared what it had with the Treasury Dept Forensic Lab in Washington, in 1980, in addition to sending money samples to their own Lab, and simply asked the TDFL for an opinion, we might know more about the history of the money today than we do. 

By 1980 he TDFL  had already dealt with thousands/millions of money samples sent in for analysis and exchange,  that they might have been able to identify Cooper money features associated with a specific money history ... based on their huge inventory of samples and their experience.  

That never happened. Cut marks and abrasions etc seen on the money are associated with some specific history. 

z money 2k k unsharp mask.bmp

[georger 197]

59 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

On the bomb,,,, I lean towards it being real but do not believe he would have jumped with it.. too risky and hard to hold/attach.

It was probably FBI "propaganda" to suggest the bomb was road flares.. because dynamite wasn't red... dynamite was red or brown.

He may have had a concealed weapon as well... no evidence for that.

 

 

Military ordinance people (bomb experts) I had read the FBI transcripts came to the same conclusion -  in a nutshell they said 'either Cooper was trying to impress on some knowing eye that his bomb might be real, or it was real'. The people I consulted focused on the wiring Tina described. How could Cooper have known he was showing the bomb's contents to an electrician's daughter who would focus on colors of wires and trace their connections in addition to describing the brief case's contents in detail ! ?  The average person would probably not be able to do that with clarity ...

anyone is free to duplicate this experiment using experts - anyone!

Edited October 17, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 37]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Don't think this matters. You can put a 24 in a container designed for a 26 just like you can stuff a 28 footer into a container designed for a 26. 

You need to visit a parachute repacking operation and try your hand at packing a 28-foot canopy in a container for a 26-foot chute.  You might just change your mind about what matters.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Robert99