DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 654]

54 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, the "FBI" flight path is NOT consistent with anyone flying the aircraft.  It wandered up to three miles from the centerline of V-23 and that would not have happened if a pilot was trying to track the centerline which anyone hand flying it would have done.

Perhaps Rataczak did hand fly the aircraft, but the FBI flight path does not support this.

Also, as I have repeatedly stated, a more accurate flight path could be determined from the Seattle ATC Center data than GEOREF.

Rataczak acknowledged the path on the map was him hand flying the plane.. that supports the path by the actual pilot and rejects the WFP. Why did he have to track the centreline of V-23.

It is probably true that the ATC map would be more accurate than GEOREF but remember they did do a more accurate path without GEOREF that was very close to the Spangler one..

The path is plotted points, the points are just connected by hand.. if you account for the GEOREF plotting error, the path can be smoothed to represent a typical jet.

The pink line on this map is within the 1 mile plotting error.

Edited September 7, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

One thing I have always wondered..

If Rataczak was hand flying,, IMO he was but concede that he was for sake of argument...

Would he be inclined fly straight into the wind or at an angle???

It is possible the slight track SE before Portland was actually Rataczak hand flying straight into the wind? or would the wind direction be irrelevant.. After Portland the wind was SW...

What is typical for flying into a wind? 

Essentially, would the wind direction have any effect on the path if plane hand flown and gear/flaps down?

Edited September 7, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

49 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

 

Also, as I have repeatedly stated, a more accurate flight path could be determined from the Seattle ATC Center data than GEOREF.

Put not Portland ATC? I suppose the controller who told the FBI that 305 was about a mile east of the center line of V-23 as it approached Portland was just full of crap.

[FLYJACK 654]

I found the specs for the rear bulkhead door,, 76" height

The 727 VR has a measurement tool that matches it..

 

= 6' 4"

 

=5' 9"

 

= 5"

 

305 had a different rack system but the bottom looks the same height

Edited September 7, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 197]

8 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Put not Portland ATC? I suppose the controller who told the FBI that 305 was about a mile east of the center line of V-23 as it approached Portland was just full of crap.

What reason would anyone have for hiding the flight path or DZ ?  When money was found at Tena Bar why would anyone hide an obvious connection to the flight path, if anyone seriously thought there was a connection?  And in fact, several people did state there was a connection between the flight path and the Columbia  (not Tena Bar).  Tosaw said there was a connection and he literally banked on there being a connection.  .... and so it goes. 

 

[JAGdb 71]

13 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

How did Cooper get to PDX..

Own car  --> I doubt it, keep low profile, do not put anything you own in the vicinity of the crime.  

Accomplice  --> I would be shocked if there was an accomplice. Just mainly because I find it harder to believe that two people could keep their mouth shut.  

Plane  --> I like this theory

Bus  --> Possibly, but didn't LE interview bus and taxi drivers ?  came up kind of empty.

Bicycle/Unicycle --> haha...If he lived in the area, maybe a bike....ride it somewhere near the airport, leave it in the bushes off the beaten path and hoof it over the rest of the way.

Boat  --> Not big on the boat theory.

Skateboard  --> As a man in his late 40s, I have found my attempts at riding on one of my old Vision skateboards very shaky and somewhat perilous.

Train  -->  I could see this...but similar to taxi and bus, you are putting yourself out there a little more.  But perhaps a different look/disguise is all you need to totally blend in.

Taxi  --> Same thoughts as bus and train above.

Some other random thoughts to recent posts...

- Wasn't there also a report of a hunting cabin being broken into ?  Not sure where that was in relation to Ariel/Merwin or other potential drop zones a little further south etc.

- I personally don't think he would try breaking into what looks like an active residence, it's just too risky and not worth it in my opinion.  To come so far, to then get within one more twist of a door knob to get blown away as was described in the article.

- If he survived the jump, I think he got out of dodge as quickly as possible, barring any serious injury.  He had adrenaline going and possibly benzedrine in his system ?  Biggest challenge was figuring out where the heck he was and how to get somewhere where he could just, at the very least, blend in.  While I agree that he probably couldn't see anything from plane to really identify a specific area, I do think based on the speed and direction he believed the plane was traveling, he could have had an educated guess as to the general area of the state he was jumping into to---I really wonder whether he knew of V-23?  Did he really know that by specifying 10,000 feet and southern direction, that the plane would be traveling on V-23?   If he new that large area well, in terms of roads and he had a compass, he could have had a plan to walk in a specific direction to hit a road or rail road track and then just take it from there.

....just my two cents...

[FLYJACK 654]

On 1/8/2022 at 12:57 PM, FLYJACK said:

Blevins, you can't read.. stop wasting my time with this nonsense.

The death penalty only needs to be an option under the charge, not sought.

Your question is flawed and demonstrates your lack of understanding.

The DOJ is correct, you are wrong.

They don't have to seek the death penalty, get it.

You don't get charged with "death penalty", you get charged with "air piracy".

 

Here is Aircraft Piracy am. 1961, no death required for death penalty..

There were many further amendments over the years making it confusing but I don't see it before NORJAK. It looks like that part was amended after 1974.

" ( i ) ( l ) Whoever commits or attempts to commit aircraft piracy, as herein defined, shall be punished—

"(A) by death if the verdict of the jury shall so recommend, or, in the case of a plea of guilty, or a plea of not guilty where the defendant has waived a trial by jury, if the court in its discretion shall so order; or

"(B) by imprisonment for not less than twenty years, if the death penalty is not imposed.

Blevins is still pushing his flawed SOL theory..

He was schooled with the facts but still refuses to accept it..

It isn't a matter of opinion he still has the facts wrong.

You can't debate people who just reject the facts.

 

There was no SOL for Cooper.. or McCoy or Hahneman.

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

3 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Some other random thoughts to recent posts...

- Wasn't there also a report of a hunting cabin being broken into ?  Not sure where that was in relation to Ariel/Merwin or other potential drop zones a little further south etc.

- I personally don't think he would try breaking into what looks like an active residence, it's just too risky and not worth it in my opinion.  To come so far, to then get within one more twist of a door knob to get blown away as was described in the article.

- If he survived the jump, I think he got out of dodge as quickly as possible, barring any serious injury.  He had adrenaline going and possibly benzedrine in his system ?  Biggest challenge was figuring out where the heck he was and how to get somewhere where he could just, at the very least, blend in.  While I agree that he probably couldn't see anything from plane to really identify a specific area, I do think based on the speed and direction he believed the plane was traveling, he could have had an educated guess as to the general area of the state he was jumping into to---I really wonder whether he knew of V-23?  Did he really know that by specifying 10,000 feet and southern direction, that the plane would be traveling on V-23?   If he new that large area well, in terms of roads and he had a compass, he could have had a plan to walk in a specific direction to hit a road or rail road track and then just take it from there.

....just my two cents...

My most likely scenario is that Cooper flew into Portland days or weeks earlier.. he is an airplane guy. Using another name he holed up somewhere and took a taxi or shuttle to the airport,, though there are many hotel/motels next to the airport, he could have walked.

IMO, Cooper did not jump where he had initially planned, he jumped early when Reno was in play..

 

But, Cooper when landing somewhere.. how does he know where to go, which direction, he would have at least a rough idea where he was, but he would have needed a compass for direction. Where would he go in the dark? Would he head toward the glowing lights of a city/town or avoid it.. if he walked the tracks would he actually know where he was going.

He lands in the dark, he is wet, dirty and possibly injured.. How would he know which way to go?

If the plane was flying N to S...  would he go E or W???  to get away from the path.. going N or S follows the path and isn't really getting away.

Maybe he did break into an empty house or cabin and holed up for while...  that seems a common play for "fugitives"..

Also, he may have booked it to Canada then flown back East to Toronto to re-enter the US... if he was from back East and wanted to get there undetected. 

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Crew could see the lights of Portland....  Portland and Vancouver would blend together into one mass of light..

 

Current light. in 1971 it would be less but Vancouver and Portland are one blob.

Cooper would not have jumped into an urban lit up area...

[JAGdb 71]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

My most likely scenario is that Cooper flew into Portland days or weeks earlier.. he is an airplane guy. Using another name he holed up somewhere and took a taxi or shuttle to the airport,, though there are many hotel/motels next to the airport, he could have walked.

IMO, Cooper did not jump where he had initially planned, he jumped early when Reno was in play..

 

But, Cooper when landing somewhere.. how does he know where to go, which direction, he would have at least a rough idea where he was, but he would have needed a compass for direction. Where would he go in the dark? Would he head toward the glowing lights of a city/town or avoid it.. if he walked the tracks would he actually know where he was going.

He lands in the dark, he is wet, dirty and possibly injured.. How would he know which way to go?

If the plane was flying N to S...  would he go E or W???  to get away from the path.. going N or S follows the path and isn't really getting away.

Maybe he did break into an empty house or cabin and holed up for while...  that seems a common play for "fugitives"..

Also, he may have booked it to Canada then flown back East to Toronto to re-enter the US... if he was from back East and wanted to get there undetected. 

 

 

 

Yes, I was thinking he had a compass.  He took a pocket knife out, so not too far of a stretch to think he had a compass.  Heck, I believe there were watches that had compasses built in even back in the 60s/70s.  Maybe he had it in his pocket the entire time, and put it on once he sent Tina to timeout up in the cockpit. (All speculation of course, but within reason)  Maybe he even had a small flash light, hidden in the brief case or the pink/green bag ;-)  

If he came across rail road tracks or a road, that would be ideal. I know they always say if your lost to follow a stream to civilization.  It wouldn't be easy, but if we think that he wasn't just and average guy, maybe had some type of military background, I think he could manage with the head start he had.  With a major injury, all bets are off.  But I think he either had prior personal knowledge of the general area, i.e. Washing/Oregon state, or he prepared himself as part of the mission.  ("right place and right time" comment).  So he would have had a working knowledge of the geography, roads etc.  

Perhaps your right about Mexico, anything is possible, I can't get there though.  I just can't get over why he wouldn't choose a flight closer to Mexico if that was his plan.  But I haven't studied the details enough, maybe there weren't flights closer with a 727....I know a few years back you and probably some others were looking into all of the flights with 727s in that time period.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Crew could see the lights of Portland....  Portland and Vancouver would blend together into one mass of light..

 

Current light. in 1971 it would be less but Vancouver and Portland are one blob.

Cooper would not have jumped into an urban lit up area...

My belief is that Cooper was winging his drop zone. Having spoken extensively to an individual who in fact winged his own DZ (McNally), I think it makes perfect sense for Cooper to have jumped in the Battle Ground to Orchards area. It’s a sweet spot. He’s close enough to civilization to make an easy escape but not so close that he risks landing on top of a police car. 

Despite it being cloudy, Cooper would have been able to see that blob of light in the distance and would have known that was Portland/Vancouver. From speaking to Jim McClellan recently (pilot of the infamous “light aircraft”), he said that, in general, the combined glow would have started to be visible from 10,000 feet in cloudy conditions roughly around the Battle Ground area. 

He also indicated that La Center gave off no light footprint whatsoever through the clouds. He said flying over La Center back then above the clouds was just darkness beneath you. He said BG and Orchards would have given off enough light to penetrate the clouds in those days. 

So if Cooper jumps as soon as he sees Portland lights and with some lights beneath him (so he knows he isn’t jumping into a lake or super heavy woods) then BG to Orchards is really ideal and fits with what I was told by a pilot who flew every day in that area.

According to McClellan, Cooper would have been jumping totally blind to what was beneath him if he jumped near the Lewis River, plus that was too early to have seen lights of Portland from 10,000 feet in the clouds.

I believe Cooper first starts going down the stairs just based off of dead reckoning. He knows that they must be approaching Portland by that time. 

[JAGdb 71]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

My belief is that Cooper was winging his drop zone. Having spoken extensively to an individual who in fact winged his own DZ (McNally), I think it makes perfect sense for Cooper to have jumped in the Battle Ground to Orchards area. It’s a sweet spot. He’s close enough to civilization to make an easy escape but not so close that he risks landing on top of a police car. 

Despite it being cloudy, Cooper would have been able to see that blob of light in the distance and would have known that was Portland/Vancouver. From speaking to Jim McClellan recently (pilot of the infamous “light aircraft”), he said that, in general, the combined glow would have started to be visible from 10,000 feet in cloudy conditions roughly around the Battle Ground area. 

He also indicated that La Center gave off no light footprint whatsoever through the clouds. He said flying over La Center back then above the clouds was just darkness beneath you. He said BG and Orchards would have given off enough light to penetrate the clouds in those days. 

So if Cooper jumps as soon as he sees Portland lights and with some lights beneath him (so he knows he isn’t jumping into a lake or super heavy woods) then BG to Orchards is really ideal and fits with what I was told by a pilot who flew every day in that area.

According to McClellan, Cooper would have been jumping totally blind to what was beneath him if he jumped near the Lewis River, plus that was too early to have seen lights of Portland from 10,000 feet in the clouds.

I believe Cooper first starts going down the stairs just based off of dead reckoning. He knows that they must be approaching Portland by that time. 

Could Copper look forward from the air stairs ?  I was thinking that he could only see what the plane has already passed. If he leaned over the stair railing to peak forward, would the air stream or force of the wind snap his neck or at least make it hard to keep his eyes open ? Or was the force of the wind not as bad as I am thinking ?

[Robert99 37]

18 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

One thing I have always wondered..

If Rataczak was hand flying,, IMO he was but concede that he was for sake of argument...

Would he be inclined fly straight into the wind or at an angle???

It is possible the slight track SE before Portland was actually Rataczak hand flying straight into the wind? or would the wind direction be irrelevant.. After Portland the wind was SW...

What is typical for flying into a wind? 

Essentially, would the wind direction have any effect on the path if plane hand flown and gear/flaps down?

FlyJack, once the aircraft leaves the ground the wind is always on the nose of the aircraft.  [Exceptions of course are during extreme turbulence and when the pilot is deliberately side slipping the aircraft.]  It simply does not matter which way the wind is blowing relative to the ground, the configuration of the aircraft, or if it is being hand flown or on autopilot.

The atmospheric wind at altitude does matter if the aircraft is trying to maintain a given ground track.  A specific ground track is achieved by pointing the nose of the aircraft in the direction that the atmospheric wind is coming from, relative to the ground desired ground track, by an angle that the pilot has to calculate given the wind aloft speed and direction and the aircraft's true airspeed.

And again, I need to repeat for the hopefully last time, anyone interested in aircraft navigation should visit the FAA's website and download and study their free publications on air navigation.  Based on my observations, quite a few people on this site would benefit greatly from studying the FAA's superb publications on this subject.  

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, JAGdb said:

Could Copper look forward from the air stairs ?  I was thinking that he could only see what the plane has already passed. If he leaned over the stair railing to peak forward, would the air stream or force of the wind snap his neck or at least make it hard to keep his eyes open ? Or was the force of the wind not as bad as I am thinking ?

Cooper's view forward directly ahead of the airliner would be lousy.  He would be looking into about a 225 MPH slip stream that was well below zero degrees F and very difficult if not impossible to keep his head in that slip stream.

Here is a true story.  I was on the USAF end of the F-16 program as it was transitioning from the YF- demonstrator aircraft to the F- operational aircraft.  The program had a F-16 airframe in the NASA full scale wind tunnel in California for testing.  One of the questions of interest was what would be the effect of losing the canopy in flight.  This canopy was a single piece item without a fixed windshield in front of it.  The USAF F-16 program director (two stars) was the test subject in that test.  Wearing normal flight gear and exposed to the free stream air flow, he said that he could not function at 180 MPH or so.    

[JAGdb 71]

12 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Cooper's view forward directly ahead of the airliner would be lousy.  He would be looking into about a 225 MPH slip stream that was well below zero degrees F and very difficult if not impossible to keep his head in that slip stream.

Here is a true story.  I was on the USAF end of the F-16 program as it was transitioning from the YF- demonstrator aircraft to the F- operational aircraft.  The program had a F-16 airframe in the NASA full scale wind tunnel in California for testing.  One of the questions of interest was what would be the effect of losing the canopy in flight.  This canopy was a single piece item without a fixed windshield in front of it.  The USAF F-16 program director (two stars) was the test subject in that test.  Wearing normal flight gear and exposed to the free stream air flow, he said that he could not function at 180 MPH or so.    

Thanks...

Maybe if you look forward from an angle with the stairs still protecting, you would be able to see portions of the forward direction.

Olemiss, maybe next time you talk to Mcnally, he could give his experience.  Although I believe his plane was traveling much faster...

[FLYJACK 654]

39 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, once the aircraft leaves the ground the wind is always on the nose of the aircraft.  [Exceptions of course are during extreme turbulence and when the pilot is deliberately side slipping the aircraft.]  It simply does not matter which way the wind is blowing relative to the ground, the configuration of the aircraft, or if it is being hand flown or on autopilot.

The atmospheric wind at altitude does matter if the aircraft is trying to maintain a given ground track.  A specific ground track is achieved by pointing the nose of the aircraft in the direction that the atmospheric wind is coming from, relative to the ground desired ground track, by an angle that the pilot has to calculate given the wind aloft speed and direction and the aircraft's true airspeed.

And again, I need to repeat for the hopefully last time, anyone interested in aircraft navigation should visit the FAA's website and download and study their free publications on air navigation.  Based on my observations, quite a few people on this site would benefit greatly from studying the FAA's superb publications on this subject.  

What if the plane is flying dirty with lots of drag. Wouldn't it be better to point it into the wind.

[Robert99 37]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

What if the plane is flying dirty with lots of drag. Wouldn't it be better to point it into the wind.

FlyJack, something seems to be getting lost in the translation here.

Once the aircraft leaves the ground, the atmospheric wind direction does not have any effect on the aircraft aerodynamics.  The only wind that the aircraft sees is that on the nose of the aircraft and the aircraft configuration is irrelevant.

The only time the aircraft aerodynamics and the atmospheric wind interact is during takeoff and landing.

Again, visit the FAA site and download some information on air navigation and study it.

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, JAGdb said:

Thanks...

Maybe if you look forward from an angle with the stairs still protecting, you would be able to see portions of the forward direction.

Olemiss, maybe next time you talk to Mcnally, he could give his experience.  Although I believe his plane was traveling much faster...

Mac had goggles and was able to see forward. I specifically asked him about this point. He said he looked all around him including forward. 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, something seems to be getting lost in the translation here.

Once the aircraft leaves the ground, the atmospheric wind direction does not have any effect on the aircraft aerodynamics.  The only wind that the aircraft sees is that on the nose of the aircraft and the aircraft configuration is irrelevant.

The only time the aircraft aerodynamics and the atmospheric wind interact is during takeoff and landing.

Again, visit the FAA site and download some information on air navigation and study it.

Nothing is lost,, You talked generally about the wind having no effect,, fine.. of course planes fly in winds of all directions.

This plane was not flying normally, it had gear down and flaps down, similar to a landing. 

My point is given the plane was flying dirty is there any advantage to fly straight into the wind vs an angle.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

Rataczak..

 "we felt this bump in the cabin causing increased pressure in our ears and we also saw the indication on the engineers panel"

"I called the Air traffic control and I said you might want to mark this down I think our friend just took leave of us...  now we think that he has left the airplane but we don't know for certain"

 

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Rataczak..

 "we felt this bump in the cabin causing increased pressure in our ears and we also saw the indication on the engineers panel"

"I called the Air traffic control and I said you might want to mark this down I think our friend just took leave of us...  now we think that he has left the airplane but we don't know for certain"

 

 

There is no such remark in the Seattle ATC Center's radio communications transcripts that have been publicly released.

Consequently, this has to be in the unredacted version of the Seattle ATC Center's radio transcripts which has not been publicly released.  And which the FAA and the FBI are sitting on.

Since some people on this site claim that there is no unredacted version of those transcripts, I am sure they will be very inventive in explaining away Rataczak's comments.

[FLYJACK 654]

5 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

There is no such remark in the Seattle ATC Center's radio communications transcripts that have been publicly released.

Consequently, this has to be in the unredacted version of the Seattle ATC Center's radio transcripts which has not been publicly released.  And which the FAA and the FBI are sitting on.

Since some people on this site claim that there is no unredacted version of those transcripts, I am sure they will be very inventive in explaining away Rataczak's comments.

 

 there is also a 14 minute gap before 8:13..  

[Robert99 37]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Nothing is lost,, You talked generally about the wind having no effect,, fine.. of course planes fly in winds of all directions.

This plane was not flying normally, it had gear down and flaps down, similar to a landing. 

My point is given the plane was flying dirty is there any advantage to fly straight into the wind vs an angle.

 

FlyJack, you are still missing the point here.

The airliner was at 10,000 feet and whether the flaps and gear were down doesn't mean a single thing with respect to the wind except that there would be more aerodynamic drag.  And it doesn't mean a single thing which way the wind in coming from with respect to the ground except for navigation purposes as explained previously. 

The wind the airliner sees is always from the nose to the tail of the aircraft, literally right down the center isle of the airliner, except in extreme turbulence and when the pilot is deliberately side slipping the aircraft.

 

[Robert99 37]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

 there is also a 14 minute gap before 8:13..  

There are a lot of other gaps also.  I count 19 gaps and, as you point out, some of them are quite lengthy.  They are much longer than would actually be the case in this matter.

[FLYJACK 654]

3 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, you are still missing the point here.

The airliner was at 10,000 feet and whether the flaps and gear were down doesn't mean a single thing with respect to the wind except that there would be more aerodynamic drag.  And it doesn't mean a single thing which way the wind in coming from with respect to the ground except for navigation purposes as explained previously. 

The wind the airliner sees is always from the nose to the tail of the aircraft, literally right down the center isle of the airliner, except in extreme turbulence and when the pilot is deliberately side slipping the aircraft.

 

I am not missing anything, I just asked a question.