DB Cooper

[georger 197]

All roads lead to Rome ... and all Columbia water leads to .... you guessed it! TENA BAR!

It was a flood that brought Cooper money to Tena Bar because, you cannot have a Columbia flood without something precious, rare, vital, and significant being left on Tena Bar. Tena Bar is a worm hole that draws important stuff in.  

Should we look for the unredacted transcripts on .....  Tena Bar (of course we should).

Everything Cooper passed through Tena Bar.

Discovery Channel Excavation of Tena Bar coming soon - looking for: The Arc of the Covenant, Dead Sea Scrolls, Moses and the Ten Commandments, and Noah and his Ark ... left after a flood. The Discovery Channel will look for special rays and electromagnetic emanations that radiate from Tena Bar.   

Was the Arc in its bag, or just one strap of Arc bundles ? 

The whole bag of money was conveyed to TBar during that flood. It was just one strap of money that stayed. It stayed because the Almighty left a sign for humans to ponder and consort about. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by georger

[Math of Insects 96]

The problem is that once someone goes to "cover-up," all bets are off. You can decide that anything at all was part of the cover-up, and therefore all alternative options are equally possible. 

The second problem is how often people go from, "That answer is unreliable, therefore this one is the only other option." Once you're saying the information is flawed, you're announcing that it's also flawed for your own answer. It's a self-sabotaging position. It being flawed in one direction is not proof of some specific other one. 

The flight path has enough primary sources in support of it, within very small variables, as to need pretty stunning proof to the contrary to be worth discussion. 

IMVVVHO the wind is the more interesting factor. 

[FLYJACK 654]

After analyzing all available evidence,, my view with 90% confidence..

7:42 air stairs unlocked/released but not dropping.

Cooper complains he can't get stairs down, pilot slows down plane.

8:05 Last comm with Cooper over interphone.. everything OK.

8:09-10 little bob on FDR, is Cooper at end of stairs causing adjustment. Rataczak hand flying plane feels Cooper on stairs and plane dip.

8:12 +/- 1 minute depending on timing device, Cooper leaves the plane. Crew sees oscillations become rapidly increase on gauge culminating in an extreme oscillation felt as the "pressure bump". Rataczak says “mark your shrimp boat”, not caught on tape due to wrong frequency.

5-10 minutes later.

About 8:16-17 Rataczak calls Soderlind over the suburbs of Portland. They had not reached Portland.

 

DZ..

The W/SW wind used by the FBI was an estimate, the wind was shifting between SW and SE in the area.. there is NO accurate wind data for Cooper's place and time of the jump.

Therefore, the drift could have been slightly East or West of the flightpath. The map we have is accurate to 1 mile. The FBI searched on the East side.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 103]

If the aircraft was being hand flown, there shouldn't be any "bobs". Soderlind says he would detect bobs in the FDR if the aircraft was on autopilot which he believed it was. Apparently, it was not. 

Secondly. the first time Rataczak mentions "shrimp boats" was in 2012. In his initial 302 to the FBI immediately after the hijacking, the last paragraph he actually laments the fact that he could have pinpointed the exact exit time of the hijacker, but did not.

"Rataczak added that it had not occurred to them at the time, but they could have pinpointed their exact location at the time the oscillation was felt..."

Moreover, this type of communication would have been made to NWA, not ATC. 

My impression is that the "shrimp boat" comment is a "fish tale" that was added as an embellishment to the story by Rat post facto. 

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

After analyzing all available evidence,, my view with 90% confidence..

7:42 air stairs unlocked/released but not dropping.

Cooper complains he can't get stairs down, pilot slows down plane.

8:05 Last comm with Cooper over interphone.. everything OK.

8:09-10 little bob on FDR, is Cooper at end of stairs causing adjustment. Rataczak hand flying plane feels Cooper on stairs and plane dip.

8:12 +/- 1 minute depending on timing device, Cooper leaves the plane. Crew sees oscillations become rapidly increase on gauge culminating in an extreme oscillation felt as the "pressure bump". Rataczak says “mark your shrimp boat”, not caught on tape due to wrong frequency.

5-10 minutes later.

About 8:16-17 Rataczak calls Soderlind over the suburbs of Portland. They had not reached Portland.

 

DZ..

The W/SW wind used by the FBI was an estimate, the wind was shifting between SW and SE in the area.. there is NO accurate wind data for Cooper's place and time of the jump.

Therefore, the drift could have been slightly East or West of the flightpath. The map we have is accurate to 1 mile. The FBI searched on the East side.

 

What is the line you have traced in green ?   A creek? Railroad ??? 

[FLYJACK 654]

4 minutes ago, georger said:

What is the line you have traced in green ?   A creek? Railroad ??? 

Railroad.

 

[Chaucer 103]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

Railroad.

 

Also, the times on your map are off my a minute. 8:10 should be 8:09 and so on. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

If the aircraft was being hand flown, there shouldn't be any "bobs". Soderlind says he would detect bobs in the FDR if the aircraft was on autopilot which he believed it was. Apparently, it was not. 

Secondly. the first time Rataczak mentions "shrimp boats" was in 2012. In his initial 302 to the FBI immediately after the hijacking, the last paragraph he actually laments the fact that he could have pinpointed the exact exit time of the hijacker, but did not.

"Rataczak added that it had not occurred to them at the time, but they could have pinpointed their exact location at the time the oscillation was felt..."

Moreover, this type of communication would have been made to NWA, not ATC. 

My impression is that the "shrimp boat" comment is a "fish tale" that was added as an embellishment to the story by Rat post facto. 

Rataczak said he was hand flying the plane..  and he felt Cooper and the plane pitch slightly. Soderlind said the "little bob" wouldn't be felt on autopilot.. The point is it was on the FDR,, that was most likely when Cooper was at the bottom of the stairs as extended as they could be. Rataczak adjusted the pitch.

In 1996, Rataszak said he told ATC the hijacker took leave.. didn't mention shrimp boats but he did indicate that he thought cooper might have jumped aka "took leave". "Shrimp boats" could have been an embellishment but he has said he told ATC Cooper took leave.

There is a newspaper article from even earlier that uses "took leave" phrase as well.

I take his comment about not marking the location as they didn't mark the location themselves...

 

1996.. I have no reason to doubt this.

 

EDIT<<<

Here Nov 26 1971...

hijacker "took leave" of us 25 miles north of here (Portland)

Edited August 30, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

11 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Also, the times on your map are off my a minute. 8:10 should be 8:09 and so on. 

I just grabbed a random map in my file..

But,  8:10 is at the 2010 mark.. 8:11 is at 2011,,   2009 is further North

I think this is correct.

 

[georger 197]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I just grabbed a random map in my file..

But,  8:10 is at the 2010 mark.. 8:11 is at 2011,,   2009 is further North

I think this is correct.

 

what is the green line ?  what does it trace?

Edited August 30, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

8 minutes ago, georger said:

what is the green line ?  what does it trace?

Railroad,, I already answered.

[Chaucer 103]

Soderlind told the FBI that he would expect to find "little bobs" in the FDR because the plane was on autopilot. The plane was not on autopilot, so what is the "bob" at 8:09? Also, I have never seen where Rat said he felt the plane "pitch slightly" when Cooper jumped. Can you provide a source for that? 

The phrase "took leave of us" is in the ATC transcripts after the plane landed in Reno and the crew is about to exit. It is unknown who said it, but since Scott landed the plane, it would be fair to assume it was Rataczak. Perhaps, after decades, Rat confused things. 

"OKAY SIR BE ADVISED AH THAT WE APPARENTLY AH OUR PASSENGER TOOK LEAVE OF US SOMEWHERE AH BETWEEN HERE AND SEATTLE..."

[Chaucer 103]

54 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I just grabbed a random map in my file..

But,  8:10 is at the 2010 mark.. 8:11 is at 2011,,   2009 is further North

I think this is correct.

 

The timing is off because there is no 8:04. It goes from 8:03 to 8:05. So anything after 8:03 should be one minute less. 

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Soderlind told the FBI that he would expect to find "little bobs" in the FDR because the plane was on autopilot. The plane was not on autopilot, so what is the "bob" at 8:09? Also, I have never seen where Rat said he felt the plane "pitch slightly" when Cooper jumped. Can you provide a source for that? 

The phrase "took leave of us" is in the ATC transcripts after the plane landed in Reno and the crew is about to exit. It is unknown who said it, but since Scott landed the plane, it would be fair to assume it was Rataczak. Perhaps, after decades, Rat confused things. 

"OKAY SIR BE ADVISED AH THAT WE APPARENTLY AH OUR PASSENGER TOOK LEAVE OF US SOMEWHERE AH BETWEEN HERE AND SEATTLE..."

Soderlind said on autpilot the crew wouldn't feel the "little bob"..

It wasn't on autopilot.

IMO, the "little bob" was Cooper arriving at the end of the stairs.. causing the plane to pitch slightly.

 

I believe Rataczak said the plane pitched in the NWA presentation.. 

He also said that Cooper "took leave" about 25 miles North of Portland,, same phrasing as in newspaper article.

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

16 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

The timing is off because there is no 8:04. It goes from 8:03 to 8:05. So anything after 8:03 should be one minute less. 

I don't subscribe to that theory..

The times are radar sweeps that are rounded to the minute..  the missing time isn't really missing, it is a rounding anomaly. I did an analysis of all the timing marks and distances and they all average out. 

In other words, the times are correct to within a 1 minute error.. the 8:04 is missing due to rounding not that the times were recorded wrong from then on.

Edited August 30, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 103]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Soderlind said on autpilot the crew wouldn't feel the "little bob"..

It wasn't on autopilot.

IMO, the "little bob" was Cooper arriving at the end of the stairs.. causing the plane to pitch slightly.

 

I believe Rataczak said the plane pitched in the NWA presentation.. 

He also said that Cooper "took leave" about 25 miles North of Portland,, same phrasing as in newspaper article.

 

 

 

I'm not talking about the crew feeling the "little bob". I'm talking about Soderlind finding a "little bob" . He says that by examining the FDR he expects to find "little bobs" where the automatic pilot kicked in. The plane wasn't on autopilot, so how could he find a little bob on the FDR? Doesn't make sense.

I looked at the transcript of the NWA presentation, and I don't find anything about pitch up. 

I've not doubt Rat used the phrase "took leave". It's in the ATC transcript after all. I question whether he used that phrase with ATC. That would be something to report to NWA, not ATC. 

[Chaucer 103]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't subscribe to that theory..

The times are radar sweeps that are rounded to the minute..  the missing time isn't really missing, I did an analysis of all the timing marks and distances and they all average out. 

In other words, the times are correct to within a 1 minute error.. the 8:04 is missing due to rounding errors not that the times were recorded wrong from then on.

The information from the NORAD senior director would seemingly dispel that notion. I will put together what he said and post it here. Everyone can judge for themselves. 

[FLYJACK 654]

3 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

I'm not talking about the crew feeling the "little bob". I'm talking about Soderlind finding a "little bob" . He says that by examining the FDR he expects to find "little bobs" where the automatic pilot kicked in. The plane wasn't on autopilot, so how could he find a little bob on the FDR? Doesn't make sense.

I looked at the transcript of the NWA presentation, and I don't find anything about pitch up. 

I've not doubt Rat used the phrase "took leave". It's in the ATC transcript after all. I question whether he used that phrase with ATC. That would be something to report to NWA, not ATC. 

Makes sense to me..  he found a "little bob" that wasn't the autopilot because it wasn't on. He thought it was due to his belief it was on autopilot. The FDR does not distinguish the "little bob" as autopilot kicking in, Soderlind was assuming because he thought it was on autopilot and the crew wouldn't feel it.

I am sure it is in there, look for degrees, maybe 3 degrees.. or something like that.

I don't have time right now to scan the vid.. will look later.

 

 

[Chaucer 103]

This is the quote from the NWA presentation:

"Jack Waddell was absolutely right. When the stairs came down,  that airplane lowered about three to five degrees, and I was hand flying it."

He's referring to when the stairs were deployed, not when Cooper jumped.

I think, and I'm not sure (can't source it), that the sled test demonstrated that there wasn't any perceptible movement of the aircraft when the sled was dropped. Just the bump in pressure. 

Personally, I think the "little bob" at 8:09 is over-stated. Soderlind was looking for something on the FDR thinking it was on autopilot when it was being hand flown and, by God, he found it. 

[FLYJACK 654]

40 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

The information from the NORAD senior director would seemingly dispel that notion. I will put together what he said and post it here. Everyone can judge for themselves. 

That is another issue,, I did an analysis for all the times vs distances between plots and found no speed anomaly over the average,, that means that the missing timestamp is irrelevant. It isn't really missing. It is the imprecision in the plots that caused a missing time not an error.

If a time plot were completely missing the speed would be messed up.

The distance between plots is not equidistant based on speed as you'd expect, or be very close, it isn't. That means those time plots are not precise but have a variation. A rounding off,, clearly they don't include the seconds.

However they were converted to draw this map, they were rounded to the minute. The 8:04 plot just got lost in the conversion rounding process... the times after are not out by a minute less.

Regardless, I have always used a 1 minute error for that map.

Edited August 30, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

30 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

This is the quote from the NWA presentation:

"Jack Waddell was absolutely right. When the stairs came down,  that airplane lowered about three to five degrees, and I was hand flying it."

He's referring to when the stairs were deployed, not when Cooper jumped.

I think, and I'm not sure (can't source it), that the sled test demonstrated that there wasn't any perceptible movement of the aircraft when the sled was dropped. Just the bump in pressure. 

Personally, I think the "little bob" at 8:09 is over-stated. Soderlind was looking for something on the FDR thinking it was on autopilot when it was being hand flown and, by God, he found it. 

Yes, that is what I was referring to..

Remember, the stair light came on at 7:42,,  Cooper released the lock..the light comes on when the lever is moved from the up position not when the stairs open... but they didn't drop... or very very slightly....  until 8:09 when he went to the bottom of the stairs. IMO, Cooper at the bottom of the stairs causing the pitch was the 8:09/10 "little bob" measured on the FDR. Soderlind's assumption is irrelevant.

Then Cooper is at the bottom of the stairs for several minutes until he jumps.. at 8:12 + or - a minute.

I found this for a NORJAK era 727  FDR..

Altitude, Heading, Vertical Acceleration.

Notice it says heading..... aka flightpath

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Chaucer 103]

Cooper making his way down the stairs would be a gradual process. How long? Who knows? If anything, that would be reflected in the FDR as a series of "bobs" not a singular "bob" when they were fully deployed.

It seems more likely that the gradual extension of the stairs by Cooper moving down them would be reflected by the oscillations in the cabin rate of climb indicator reported at 8:11. 

The 727 had an early generation FDR that only recorded five parameters: indicated airspeed, heading, altitude, vertical speed, and time. 

The bobs Soderlind refers to would likely be an acute change in the aircraft's vertical speed due to the correction of the autopilot. Again, if the plane was being hand flown, I don't see how any bob would be detectable. 

[FLYJACK 654]

3 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Cooper making his way down the stairs would be a gradual process. How long? Who knows? If anything, that would be reflected in the FDR as a series of "bobs" not a singular "bob" when they were fully deployed.

It seems more likely that the gradual extension of the stairs by Cooper moving down them would be reflected by the oscillations in the cabin rate of climb indicator reported at 8:11. 

The 727 had an early generation FDR that only recorded five parameters: indicated airspeed, heading, altitude, vertical speed, and time. 

The bobs Soderlind refers to would likely be an acute change in the aircraft's vertical speed due to the correction of the autopilot. Again, if the plane was being hand flown, I don't see how any bob would be detectable. 

 

When Cooper is on the end of the stairs,, as far down as will go under his weight vs the wind (not fully down and locked) this caused the slight pitch which was felt by Rataczak.. 

The little bob could be that change in pitch or Rataczak hand correcting...

 

[Chaucer 103]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

 

When Cooper is on the end of the stairs,, as far down as will go under his weight vs the wind (not fully down and locked) this caused the slight pitch which was felt by Rataczak.. 

The little bob could be that change in pitch or Rataczak hand correcting...

 

The change in pitch was the result of the stairs being flown down in flight, not Cooper standing on them. This is confirmed by the teletype transmission at 6:59:

MSP FLT OPS HAVE NO CNTRL PROBLEM WHEN XTNDD

MAY BE SUM SLITE PITCHUP BUT ERY CNTRLLBL

PLANE HAS BEEN FLOWN THIS WAY

HAVE LARGE BOXES OF 2 TO 3HND LBS THRU THE DOOR IN THIS CONFIG

It is corroborated by Rataczak's statement at the NWA Historical Center in 2012:

"Jack Waddell was absolutely right. When the stairs came down,  that airplane lowered about three to five degrees, and I was hand flying it."

It makes no sense for a singular "little bob" to be detected as a result of Cooper standing on the bottom step. The bob Soderlind would be expecting would result from the autopilot correcting a change in vertical speed, not a gradual change in the pitch of the aircraft.

And, not for nothing, I'm not entirely convinced Rataczak was even flying the plane out of Seattle, but that's a tale for a different time.

[FLYJACK 654]

33 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

The change in pitch was the result of the stairs being flown down in flight, not Cooper standing on them. This is confirmed by the teletype transmission at 6:59:

MSP FLT OPS HAVE NO CNTRL PROBLEM WHEN XTNDD

MAY BE SUM SLITE PITCHUP BUT ERY CNTRLLBL

PLANE HAS BEEN FLOWN THIS WAY

HAVE LARGE BOXES OF 2 TO 3HND LBS THRU THE DOOR IN THIS CONFIG

It is corroborated by Rataczak's statement at the NWA Historical Center in 2012:

"Jack Waddell was absolutely right. When the stairs came down,  that airplane lowered about three to five degrees, and I was hand flying it."

It makes no sense for a singular "little bob" to be detected as a result of Cooper standing on the bottom step. The bob Soderlind would be expecting would result from the autopilot correcting a change in vertical speed, not a gradual change in the pitch of the aircraft.

And, not for nothing, I'm not entirely convinced Rataczak was even flying the plane out of Seattle, but that's a tale for a different time.

Sure, but the stairs didn't go down "fully" until 8:09/10.. 

The stairs were down because Cooper was at the bottom.. the stairs didn't drop without Cooper on them. 

that is the point,,, the light going on at 7:42 does not indicate stairs were down.. only that the lever was moved from the up detent.

Stairs went down because Cooper went to the bottom which caused a slight pitch which caused Rataczak to adjust..

the "bob" was either the change in pitch or the adjustment by Rataczak.

 

Rataczak had to be hand flying the plane.. not only did he say so but think about the situation.. The plane is flying low altitude, slow, gear down, flaps down.. in an emergency situation with a potential bomb on board,, it was flown around Portland. You aren't going to fly auto pilot in such a dirty configuration. Rataczak even slowed down the plane before Cooper jumped.

Edited August 30, 2023 by FLYJACK