DB Cooper

[georger 197]

Latest from Edwards on radio gap (Transcript):

'We have to conclude that if Flight 305 attempted a transmission on 133.9 mHz, and if it failed to reach the Redmond site, it was not because of the High Cascades, but simply because the airplane was beyond the receiving range of the Redmond site.'

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/23077271-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-mount-jefferson-and-the-boone-bridge

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by georger

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Latest from Edwards on radio gap (Transcript):

'We have to conclude that if Flight 305 attempted a transmission on 133.9 mHz, and if it failed to reach the Redmond site, it was not because of the High Cascades, but simply because the airplane was beyond the receiving range of the Redmond site.'

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/23077271-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-mount-jefferson-and-the-boone-bridge

 

Georger, I don't know what you are getting at here but surely you do understand that VHF radios have a distance limitation as well as a line-of-sight limitation.

Those are the exact reasons that the FAA has additional receiving/transmitting radio facilities along the airways. In the case of V-23, the aircraft have to be at or above 10,000 feet Above Sea Level to be assured of being able to communicate with the controllers on the segment south of Seattle and Portland.

[CooperNWO305 146]

Georger and Math. The comments about grammar are pathetic. You two are both full of s**t and are virtue signaling. The poster who said me instead of I has done ten times more for this community than either of you and is well respected and well liked. This is the Internet and not a high school English class. We type fast and have a stream of thought. Mistakes happen. Georger you’re an old guy, so I can see how maybe you’re offended by the new tech. But there is no need to call out minor grammar issues here. Get a life both of you. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by CooperNWO305

[georger 197]

32 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Georger and Math. The comments about grammar are pathetic. You two are both full of s**t and are virtue signaling. The poster who said me instead of I has done ten times more for this community than either of you and is well respected and well liked. This is the Internet and not a high school English class. We type fast and have a stream of thought. Mistakes happen. Georger you’re an old guy, so I can see how maybe you’re offended by the new tech. But there is no need to call out minor grammar issues here. Get a life both of you. 

Really?  Mine was an idle comment. Indeed - get a life. Maybe try a tinfoil room? Apology for living.

Edited November 5, 2022 by georger

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, I don't know what you are getting at here but surely you do understand that VHF radios have a distance limitation as well as a line-of-sight limitation.

Those are the exact reasons that the FAA has additional receiving/transmitting radio facilities along the airways. In the case of V-23, the aircraft have to be at or above 10,000 feet Above Sea Level to be assured of being able to communicate with the controllers on the segment south of Seattle and Portland.

Robert you are confused again.     What am "I" getting at?  Its not me. It's Edwards's latest post. I only directed readers to Edwards latest post. If you have a problem with Edward's post,  address him! His name is Edwards. My name is Abdul!

We have a FULL MOON TODAY!  THE ELECTION WILL BE OVER SOON. HOLD YOUR WATER BOYS AND GIRLS!   

Edited November 5, 2022 by georger

[dudeman17 270]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

VHF radios have a distance limitation as well as a line-of-sight limitation

I read Dr. Edwards' post and he didn't really define those distances. So to be curious and clarify, in your opinion would 305 have been near or beyond that distance limit for Redmond at that point, or should they have been within it?

[georger 197]

4 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I read Dr. Edwards' post and he didn't really define those distances. So to be curious and clarify, in your opinion would 305 have been near or beyond that distance limit for Redmond at that point, or should they have been within it?

'for the propagation available at the time' ....  what were the specs for that vhf radio and frequency? 

This is all subjective in any event. No tests were done. No definitive answer is possible now.  I dont read Edwards as suggesting anything more than options. He did no tests, was not there, etc.

Since when is R99 a VHF radio/propagation expert? Ask 377 or a pilot this question! In fact, ask Mike Stahl K6MYC, KLM/M2 antennas. He's on almost every night at 7150~. He's an antenna and propagation expert for the govt with decades of experience and has run vhf nets for decades - has actual ground based and airline experience. Ask somebody with real credentials that doesnt have a vested interest!  Ask R2 directly ? I would give the same advice to Dr Edwards.

At the very least you need to know the equipment and propagation specs that were involved on the evening of this event. Im not satisfied that anyone in Cooperland has those specs. The whole issue is people guessing ...

The current signal strength for Voyager post heliopause at Goldstone is about .0001 of a billionth of a billion of a watt. If that is helpful.  

W0CEF ret.

[Voyager normally transmits data to Earth over the Deep Space Network Channel 18, at either 2.3 GHz or 8.4 GHz. Transmissions from Earth to Voyager are transmitted at 2.1 GHz.]

Edited November 6, 2022 by georger

[georger 197]

Interview with Eric Ulis- featured in DB Cooper, where are you?

YouTube·Treasure Warriors·Jul 16, 2022

 

ONCE UPON A TIME IN COOPERLAND

 

Get ready for a lot of swearing.  The real Eric Ulis.  How Cooperland has evolved since way back when, when life was simpler ?  Opportunities ahead. ? 

Edited November 6, 2022 by georger

[Robert99 37]

6 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I read Dr. Edwards' post and he didn't really define those distances. So to be curious and clarify, in your opinion would 305 have been near or beyond that distance limit for Redmond at that point, or should they have been within it?

The airliner was north of Portland when it was assigned 133.9 and Redmond was at least 125 statute air miles away with plenty of mountains and such in between.  The airliner's radios probably had a maximum output of 25 watts.  Also, the airliner had at least two radio transceivers and I presume they were identical.

My guess is that the 125 miles was beyond the distance capability under the circumstances.

Further, it is my understanding that the Apollo 11 moon rocket and lander transmitted and received everything from/to the earth over a modified 25 watt transceiver.  But neither the FAA nor NWA 305 had the advantage of a 200 foot disc for transmissions and reception.

As Dr. Edwards has repeatedly pointed out, no one is really going to know exactly what happened with 133.9 until the appropriate FAA and ARINC radio and teletype transcripts are released.

[georger 197]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The airliner was north of Portland when it was assigned 133.9 and Redmond was at least 125 statute air miles away with plenty of mountains and such in between.  The airliner's radios probably had a maximum output of 25 watts.  Also, the airliner had at least two radio transceivers and I presume they were identical.

My guess is that the 125 miles was beyond the distance capability under the circumstances.

Further, it is my understanding that the Apollo 11 moon rocket and lander transmitted and received everything from/to the earth over a modified 25 watt transceiver.  But neither the FAA nor NWA 305 had the advantage of a 200 foot disc for transmissions and reception.

As Dr. Edwards has repeatedly pointed out, no one is really going to know exactly what happened with 133.9 until the appropriate FAA and ARINC radio and teletype transcripts are released.

There is software that might be helpful. Contact the FAA or Mike Stahl K6MYC (M2 Antenna Lab) or any of the vendors who use such software on a daily basis. including Rockwell.  

This will be rejected - goes without saying. Cooperites rely on wandering in the wilderness ... 

Edited November 6, 2022 by georger

[georger 197]

13 hours ago, Robert99 said:

The airliner was north of Portland when it was assigned 133.9 and Redmond was at least 125 statute air miles away with plenty of mountains and such in between.  The airliner's radios probably had a maximum output of 25 watts.  Also, the airliner had at least two radio transceivers and I presume they were identical.

My guess is that the 125 miles was beyond the distance capability under the circumstances.

Further, it is my understanding that the Apollo 11 moon rocket and lander transmitted and received everything from/to the earth over a modified 25 watt transceiver.  But neither the FAA nor NWA 305 had the advantage of a 200 foot disc for transmissions and reception.

As Dr. Edwards has repeatedly pointed out, no one is really going to know exactly what happened with 133.9 until the appropriate FAA and ARINC radio and teletype transcripts are released.

Its just typical that you and others continue to wait on Blue Fairy to deliver unto you what you 'demand'. You will stubbornly hold up the whole world to get what you want/demand. In this particular case the world is FULL of vhf aviation experts which nobody apparently has consulted . . .  Blue Fairy must deliver what you demand, first and only.

Evidently the 133.9 'issue', if it was an issue, was not important enough for controllers, NWO, the FBI,FAA etc ... to get excited about it and issue special alerts. FLIGHT 305 LOST!  COMMUNICATION LOST!  The issue did not come up during the flight test nor was the issue tested - just for the hell of it. Hmmmmm. So we must wait for Blue Fairy to deliver us .... to a truthful accounting of the DB Cooper case. As Ulis says: "no fucking university lecture" please. We will only accept the transcripts written by and for Blue Fairy.. Blue Fairy is real and has the truth we seek.

But will you accept what Blue Fairy delivers? If there even is a Blue Fairy!  Probably not. 

 

[georger 197]

Was the aviation signal 133.9 ...  ssb, fm, am, encrypted ..... what?  anyone know? 

anyone have a photo of the antenna on the 727 ?    weather conditions between 305 and receivers at the time ?   Any propagation forecast for the period in question ?

Any actual quantification for any of this from any source?

Edited November 6, 2022 by georger

[dudeman17 270]

3 hours ago, georger said:

Its just typical that you and others continue to wait on Blue Fairy to deliver unto you what you 'demand'...

I wasn't looking to do a deep dive on all things radio, and I don't think that this issue will solve the ultimate question of who Cooper was. I was just curious, so I asked him since he mentioned it. I believe R99 is a pilot, and seems to know about pilot stuff. Does he have a 'vested interest' in deceiving me? I hadn't noticed that.

[olemisscub 466]

On 3/12/2022 at 11:55 AM, ParrotheadVol said:

Any idea who the Albuquerque photo is? I'd be interested in seeing a photo of someone who was a "close" match to Cooper.

I believe it to be Allen "Crazy Al" Cooper. Only photos I could find of him from the time period and his face is partially blocked.

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/abqjournal/name/allen-cooper-obituary?id=36283698

[georger 197]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I believe it to be Allen "Crazy Al" Cooper. Only photos I could find of him from the time period and his face is partially blocked.

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/abqjournal/name/allen-cooper-obituary?id=36283698

good find - I still think the Cooper case could be political. I lived through that era - everything was political. But politics never came up between Cooper and Tina ? 

[georger 197]

5 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I wasn't looking to do a deep dive on all things radio, and I don't think that this issue will solve the ultimate question of who Cooper was. I was just curious, so I asked him since he mentioned it. I believe R99 is a pilot, and seems to know about pilot stuff. Does he have a 'vested interest' in deceiving me? I hadn't noticed that.

Well nothing I say will suffice.   Its not worth the trouble. 

Any DB Cooper westerns being made? With Elvis Presley ?

Edited November 7, 2022 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

Found this clever cartoon today while going through some archives online. Chicago Tribune 1972. 

 

[Nicholas Broughton 53]

17 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I wasn't looking to do a deep dive on all things radio, and I don't think that this issue will solve the ultimate question of who Cooper was. I was just curious, so I asked him since he mentioned it. I believe R99 is a pilot, and seems to know about pilot stuff. Does he have a 'vested interest' in deceiving me? I hadn't noticed that.

You back at Elsinore DM?

[olemisscub 466]

Did we ever figure out what this "radio" business was all about? In NORJAK, Himmy mentions this two-way radio conversation. Did Tina sneak a radio on board with the crew meals? In one of those it says that Tina asked the hijacker if she could get these items and mentioned a radio...but perhaps that is a misinterpretation? We never have Cooper asking for a radio so perhaps she didn't actually mention the radio to Cooper when she asked permission to go get the other stuff and while she was out there they handed her a radio with the meals? I'm not sure how to make heads or tails of this. Thoughts?

 

 

[CooperNWO305 146]

Trying to refresh some of my notes here.  How many witnesses saw Cooper and could help with a description? I count 10.

Tina, Flo, Alice

Mitchell

Dennis Lysne (ticket agent)

Hal Williams (gate agent)

Gregory

Spreckel

House

Labissioniere

There is an old comment from the Cooper Forum that states this: "The passengers' freedom of movement, as described by Jack Almstad, is corroborated by Michael Cooper, who said he also used the rear lavatory during the flight. However, Michael said he also had a minor altercation with DB Cooper at that time because Tina stood and asked him to re-take his seat and not use the lav. Michael was miffed and refused. Tina looked at DB Cooper, who nodded his approval, and Tina allowed Michael to proceed to the restroom."

This would mean at least two more people saw him, but I don't see that in the 302s.  I would suppose the "cowboy" would have seen him too.

OleMiss: This would be a good spreadsheet for a DB Cooper Wiki. 

 

[georger 197]

On 11/5/2022 at 6:59 PM, dudeman17 said:

I read Dr. Edwards' post and he didn't really define those distances. So to be curious and clarify, in your opinion would 305 have been near or beyond that distance limit for Redmond at that point, or should they have been within it?

Its several (3) posts, not a single post. Read them all.  

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2500530.Robert_H_Edwards/blog

Nobody so far including Edwards has given any technical details for the vhf equipment in use. We know that vhf is generally line of sight.

How far can aircraft VHF transmit? VHF communication systems are the most widely used for maintaining contact between ground and aircraft. This employs "Line Of Sight" transmission, which translates to a range of about thirty miles for an aircraft operating at 1,000 feet above the ground, or about 135 miles with an aircraft operating at 10,000 feet.

 

We also know the issue was not included in the Flight Test and 302s so far do not document it was a special concern. The FAA took no special action or issued an Alert in this matter. The limitations of vhf radio are well known in every venue where vhf is used. 

None of that has anything to do with missing and redacted transcripts - its physics!

 

R99 always falls back on his claim of missing and redacted transcripts, for all DBC issues that come up.  In addition, I cannot find Edwards ever saying what R99 claims he has said, in this matter! Edward's words are there for the whole world to read - read Edward's posts directly, if anyone wants to know what Edwards said! Nobody needs to interpret Edwards - Edwards is always very clear in what he saying and not saying! Edwards does not need any 'middle man' .....  this isnt CHURCH!

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by georger
want to

[olemisscub 466]

47 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Trying to refresh some of my notes here.  How many witnesses saw Cooper and could help with a description? I count 10.

Tina, Flo, Alice

Mitchell

Dennis Lysne (ticket agent)

Hal Williams (gate agent)

Gregory

Spreckel

House

Labissioniere

There is an old comment from the Cooper Forum that states this: "The passengers' freedom of movement, as described by Jack Almstad, is corroborated by Michael Cooper, who said he also used the rear lavatory during the flight. However, Michael said he also had a minor altercation with DB Cooper at that time because Tina stood and asked him to re-take his seat and not use the lav. Michael was miffed and refused. Tina looked at DB Cooper, who nodded his approval, and Tina allowed Michael to proceed to the restroom."

This would mean at least two more people saw him, but I don't see that in the 302s.  I would suppose the "cowboy" would have seen him too.

OleMiss: This would be a good spreadsheet for a DB Cooper Wiki. 

 

Yes, I agree it's a good idea. I may come up with something on it. 

Almstad claims to have interacted with Cooper and Tina when he standing in line for the bathroom, making a joke about Thanksgiving dinner being late because they had been in the air so long. You're also correct on the Michael Cooper story. 

The only other passenger that I'm aware of who claimed to have seen Cooper is Richard Simmons. He told his story on the In Search Of episode. I've timestamped it below. 

I'm dubious of these claims though. The FBI only ever showed photographs and got sketch suggestions from the "canonical five" passengers, Mitchell, House, Lab, Gregory, and Spreckel. It's my understanding that every passenger was interviewed by the FBI because we have a few 302's of passengers who are like "yeah I didn't see anything. I slept the whole time." I think if Almstad, Simmons, or Mike Cooper had actually seen Cooper then they'd have mentioned it and they probably would have been more involved in the investigation. 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by olemisscub

[dudeman17 270]

6 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

You back at Elsinore DM?

Yes I am, sort of. My intent is to be there on Saturdays, but I seem to be making it about half of them. Haven't resumed doing tandems yet, still just doing AFF. Hopefully soon.

[CooperNWO305 146]

17 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Yes, I agree it's a good idea. I may come up with something on it. 

Almstad claims to have interacted with Cooper and Tina when he standing in line for the bathroom, making a joke about Thanksgiving dinner being late because they had been in the air so long. You're also correct on the Michael Cooper story. 

The only other passenger that I'm aware of who claimed to have seen Cooper is Richard Simmons. He told his story on the In Search Of episode. I've timestamped it below. 

I'm dubious of these claims though. The FBI only ever showed photographs and got sketch suggestions from the "canonical five" passengers, Mitchell, House, Lab, Gregory, and Spreckel. It's my understanding that every passenger was interviewed by the FBI because we have a few 302's of passengers who are like "yeah I didn't see anything. I slept the whole time." I think if Almstad, Simmons, or Mike Cooper had actually seen Cooper then they'd have mentioned it and they probably would have been more involved in the investigation. 

 

In Edwards' book he says 14 passengers witnessed Cooper.  I'm picturing being at airplane gates and on airplanes over the years.  Even if I did not interact with someone or get a great look, if you asked me fairly soon after the flight what I remembered, I could probably tell you bits and pieces.  I'm guessing people at the gate may have gotten a quick glance at him, but not enough to really offer assistance on a sketch.  

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

In Edwards' book he says 14 passengers witnessed Cooper.  I'm picturing being at airplane gates and on airplanes over the years.  Even if I did not interact with someone or get a great look, if you asked me fairly soon after the flight what I remembered, I could probably tell you bits and pieces.  I'm guessing people at the gate may have gotten a quick glance at him, but not enough to really offer assistance on a sketch.  

Well, not quite. He says "Fourteen witnesses have left written records of their interactions with the hijacker". He's including NWO employees not just passengers in that count. 

He's actually wrong on that count anyways. He appears to be counting Almstad and Simmons' post hijacking stories, so I'll stipulate to adding them as well as Mike Cooper. 

Crew: Scotty, Bill, Andy, Tina, Flo, Alyce

PDX: Lynse, Williams

Passengers: Mitchell, Lab, Gregory, House, Spreckel, Almstad, Cooper, Simmons.

That's 16. He forgot about Hal Williams and I guess never came across Mike Cooper.

So I guess as far as witnessing (allegedly) Cooper, you've got 13.  

Edited November 8, 2022 by olemisscub