Guru312 0
377 21
Farflung wrote:
I think two major aviation mysteries will be solved in my lifetime (I am hoping for another 20 years on the planet): The Cooper skyjack and Amelia Earhart's crash location. This is all speculative, of course.
This forum is unlikley to contribute to the solving of the Norjack case, but there will be the usual Monday morning quarterbacking where a few of the zillion things aired here will turn out to be related to the case and coincidence will be blurred with causation. For example, it may turn out that Cooper knew about the Air America 727 jumps in Thailand, but that doesnt mean that this forum helped solve the case.
Amelia's Lockheed will be found with good old hard work (months at sea in tedious pattern searching), towed side scanning sonar and a bit of luck. There are mega rich folks out there who want to be associated with an event of historical significance. Solving the Earhart mystery affords a perfect opportunity.
377
QuoteI'm fully accepting of the notion that the identity of DB Cooper will likely never be known. In the unlikely event of a discovery, I'm completely braced for the crushing disappointment that this thread will have helped not.
I think two major aviation mysteries will be solved in my lifetime (I am hoping for another 20 years on the planet): The Cooper skyjack and Amelia Earhart's crash location. This is all speculative, of course.
This forum is unlikley to contribute to the solving of the Norjack case, but there will be the usual Monday morning quarterbacking where a few of the zillion things aired here will turn out to be related to the case and coincidence will be blurred with causation. For example, it may turn out that Cooper knew about the Air America 727 jumps in Thailand, but that doesnt mean that this forum helped solve the case.
Amelia's Lockheed will be found with good old hard work (months at sea in tedious pattern searching), towed side scanning sonar and a bit of luck. There are mega rich folks out there who want to be associated with an event of historical significance. Solving the Earhart mystery affords a perfect opportunity.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
quade 3
QuoteAmelia's Lockheed will be found with good old hard work (months at sea in tedious pattern searching), towed side scanning sonar and a bit of luck.
Disagree.
It's a much smaller target than the Titanic. The Titanic's location was known and it left a huge debris field that could be followed back to the main wreckage.
The Lockheed Electra could still be all in one piece or it could be in a lot of very small pieces depending on how it impacted the water. My guess is that while they were lost and ran out of fuel, they could still make a reasonable ditching and land in one piece. It would float, but not indefinitely. My guess is it's probably resting on the bottom somewhere, but where that is could be within thousands of square miles.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
QuoteQuoteAmelia's Lockheed will be found with good old hard work (months at sea in tedious pattern searching), towed side scanning sonar and a bit of luck.
Disagree.
It's a much smaller target than the Titanic. The Titanic's location was known and it left a huge debris field that could be followed back to the main wreckage.
The Lockheed Electra could still be all in one piece or it could be in a lot of very small pieces depending on how it impacted the water. My guess is that while they were lost and ran out of fuel, they could still make a reasonable ditching and land in one piece. It would float, but not indefinitely. My guess is it's probably resting on the bottom somewhere, but where that is could be within thousands of square miles.
Yeah but eventually technology caught up with the requirements needed to find the Titanic & Liberty Bell 7, I gotta believe eventually something will come along that will simplify the search for a small underwater anomaly and they'll drag up the Electra.
That is of course if it hasn't already been found...one of the theories is that the Japanese located it shortly after the ditching and used some parts on it as reverse engineered models for some of their aircraft.
Could also be true that she and her navigator had a love child that took up late night skydiving in the northwest United States during the early 70's. . . AND that he ate some cookies!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
QuoteQuote
...throw dozens of otherwise normal jumpers into a frenzy...
Oxymoron
Airtwardo: Master of laconic profundity.
Sometimes less is more!
Besides like 377 said, most skydivers are notoriously bad writers...last thing I wanna do is give Far-flung confirmation on that!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Farflung 0
377,
Could not agree more about the future postmortem on Cooper.
The list of lottery numbers is very finite, the hard part is getting them in order at the right time.
Even the 'less attractive to eccentrics' story of Earhart has some feral donkey theories.
Things like east bound, equatorial flights using an octant for celestial navigation on an aircraft without an 'astrodome' while approaching the international dateline at sunrise is not sexy enough. Too dry, technical and frankly requires too much thinking.
Cooper probably will be found like Fossett. Someone who has no connection will blunder upon something unusual and let the cops know. Even Fossett had a camp that believed he faked his death. The bounds of possibility and stupidity, truly know no limits.
The glory aspect has me in a total vacuum of comprehension. Who wants to be known for finding someone or something that was well known? Actually, I don't understand why people want to be famous in the first place.
I worked for Lockheed in Burbank for a time. You had this town filled with aerospace employees and attention whores in a weird mix of lifestyles and behaviors. I learned quickly when I thought I knew someone they were one of those people from the TV studios and not an old teacher or friend.
One of the local eateries was used by both industries. During one lunch, an entourage crashed through the front door and marched while loudly chatting about stuff into a room marked VIP. One of the patrons asked the owner who they were and he said - nobody. But they went in the VIP room, was the next statement. Without missing a beat, the owner replied with "I bought that sign because is was cheaper than the one that said Asshole".
We had cookies for lunch that day.
Could not agree more about the future postmortem on Cooper.
The list of lottery numbers is very finite, the hard part is getting them in order at the right time.
Even the 'less attractive to eccentrics' story of Earhart has some feral donkey theories.
Things like east bound, equatorial flights using an octant for celestial navigation on an aircraft without an 'astrodome' while approaching the international dateline at sunrise is not sexy enough. Too dry, technical and frankly requires too much thinking.
Cooper probably will be found like Fossett. Someone who has no connection will blunder upon something unusual and let the cops know. Even Fossett had a camp that believed he faked his death. The bounds of possibility and stupidity, truly know no limits.
The glory aspect has me in a total vacuum of comprehension. Who wants to be known for finding someone or something that was well known? Actually, I don't understand why people want to be famous in the first place.
I worked for Lockheed in Burbank for a time. You had this town filled with aerospace employees and attention whores in a weird mix of lifestyles and behaviors. I learned quickly when I thought I knew someone they were one of those people from the TV studios and not an old teacher or friend.
One of the local eateries was used by both industries. During one lunch, an entourage crashed through the front door and marched while loudly chatting about stuff into a room marked VIP. One of the patrons asked the owner who they were and he said - nobody. But they went in the VIP room, was the next statement. Without missing a beat, the owner replied with "I bought that sign because is was cheaper than the one that said Asshole".
We had cookies for lunch that day.
...I don't understand why people want to be famous in the first place.
Closer parking & hot chicks...pass me an Oreo would ya!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Until someone located me through this or another forum. I had no concrete knowledge of the story behind the TIE.
Duane stopped me from sorting out the ties to get rid of the ones no longer in style. He had lots of ties. He simply told me he would go though them later. This was after he had gone out on disability and no longer need so many ties taking up space. He remarked one of them was a very special and belonged to a famous person. I did not pay it any attention and do not remember what if any he gave as an excuse for his having such a tie. I was working 24/7 during those last yrs - between my business, cooking up meals for him to have when I wasn't there and getting the housekeeping and laundry done...and chauffeuring him to and from diaylsis and Dr.s appointments.
After he die I just got rid of them all. 
I do remember if a clip-on was among them.
Someone who knew Duane very well contacted me. I can and will never reveal who this person was without his written consent. This person contacted me because he was angry - but, I was NOT the person who he thought I was. The phone call turned out to be very informative with him telling me things about Duane I was unaware of.
One of these things was the TIE story. It was mentioned only vaguely and I could hardly refrain from asking him more at that time...I just let him talk and get the anger out of his system. I sensed he was hurting and needed to air his feelings.
It was difficult for me to hold back, but later I would contact him and ask for more information about this "tie".
What I was told:
1.The tie supposedly belonged to Bobby Kennedy.
2. The tie was a subject of conversations many times over the yrs.
3. The tie was taken from a Hotel in Jefferson (a tall glass building) where Kennedy was staying during a crucial time.
4. This time was right after Weber was released from Jefferson and was working in the area.
Below are things to think about:
1. The time co-incides with Bobby Kennedy making with his speech in or around the Jefferson area and the MLK assassination.
2. The FBI has produced NO evidence that proves the tie in evidence was the same time taken off of the plane in 1971.
3. NO one knows if this is the actual Tie that Cooper was wearing. NO picture of the tie or tie clasp was made available to the public until the last 2 or 3 yrs. Ask yourself WHY? 
(after 36 yrs a tie is just a tie).
4. What else could have been in that bag? A note or a treasure or something he might have needed in the jump or was it just candy bars? (Clarks or Butterfingers).
5. The answers are endess. Why leave behind a tie and clasp and leave nothing else. When he went to the bathroom (if this really happened) did he tear up the bag or burn the bag and then flush what was left.
6. Did the tie found actually belong to Cooper - OR was it neatly folded in a sandwich bag inside of that paper bag.....so he could carry it on and remember to leave it. Even back then - one wanted to leave NO evidence and Cooper left none.
7. Has the FBI ever run the DNA samples taken from the tie against members of the Kennedy family?
8. Bobby had many children and he did wear cheap ties given to him as gifts by his children and he did wear clip-ons when he was speaking from the back of wagon.
9. Bobby Kennedy wearing a clip on was for security reasons - did anyone ever see the clips where the public was grabbing at him - he lost lots of cuff links in that manner. I have seen clips where his body guard had to actually hold Bobby at the waist football style to prevent him from being pulled off the wagon.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
377 21
Quade wrote:
Finding the crash site is a long shot indeed, but you are underestimating how far side scan sonar has advanced. Digital signal processing, multifrequency transmitting and image enhancement has done wonders.
Even consumer grade side scan sonar these days has incredible resolution. The high end commercial and military stuff is beyond awesome. They can use accelerometers and computers to take out all motion artifacts too.
The US Navy in the early 1990s found and recovered a single pax door that blew out of a UAL 747 (unfortunately a few pax were also ejected by the explosive decompression) about 100 miles out of Honolulu. It was in very deep water, and was a tiny target with only a rough idea of location from radar tracking.
Now deciding where to look for Amelia's Lockheed, thats the hard part.
377
QuoteDisagree.
It's a much smaller target than the Titanic. The Titanic's location was known and it left a huge debris field that could be followed back to the main wreckage.
The Lockheed Electra could still be all in one piece or it could be in a lot of very small pieces depending on how it impacted the water. My guess is that while they were lost and ran out of fuel, they could still make a reasonable ditching and land in one piece. It would float, but not indefinitely. My guess is it's probably resting on the bottom somewhere, but where that is could be within thousands of square miles.
Finding the crash site is a long shot indeed, but you are underestimating how far side scan sonar has advanced. Digital signal processing, multifrequency transmitting and image enhancement has done wonders.
Even consumer grade side scan sonar these days has incredible resolution. The high end commercial and military stuff is beyond awesome. They can use accelerometers and computers to take out all motion artifacts too.
The US Navy in the early 1990s found and recovered a single pax door that blew out of a UAL 747 (unfortunately a few pax were also ejected by the explosive decompression) about 100 miles out of Honolulu. It was in very deep water, and was a tiny target with only a rough idea of location from radar tracking.
Now deciding where to look for Amelia's Lockheed, thats the hard part.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Robert99 37
QuoteQuade wrote:
QuoteDisagree.
It's a much smaller target than the Titanic. The Titanic's location was known and it left a huge debris field that could be followed back to the main wreckage.
The Lockheed Electra could still be all in one piece or it could be in a lot of very small pieces depending on how it impacted the water. My guess is that while they were lost and ran out of fuel, they could still make a reasonable ditching and land in one piece. It would float, but not indefinitely. My guess is it's probably resting on the bottom somewhere, but where that is could be within thousands of square miles.
Finding the crash site is a long shot indeed, but you are underestimating how far side scan sonar has advanced. Digital signal processing, multifrequency transmitting and image enhancement has done wonders.
Even consumer grade side scan sonar these days has incredible resolution. The high end commercial and military stuff is beyond awesome. They can use accelerometers and computers to take out all motion artifacts too.
The US Navy in the early 1990s found and recovered a single pax door that blew out of a UAL 747 (unfortunately a few pax were also ejected by the explosive decompression) about 100 miles out of Honolulu. It was in very deep water, and was a tiny target with only a rough idea of location from radar tracking.
Now deciding where to look for Amelia's Lockheed, thats the hard part.
377
I believe it was the forward (just in front of the wing) cargo door that came open and took off a part of the passenger cabin wall with it. The end result was that several passengers were ejected from the aircraft and some reportedly went through the engines resulting in the failure of both engines on the right side.
If my memory is correct, the aircraft was 500+ miles southwest of Honolulu but the Navy found and recovered the door at the request of Boeing. In Amelia's case, she reported being in clouds and the only clouds the people at Howland Island could see were northwest of there.
It is questionable if Amelia could make a successful ditching. She was not an overable capable pilot in the first place and she had already exposed her lack of knowledge when she asked the Coast Guard ship at Howland to give her a DF steer and then didn't give the "long count" that was necessary for that steer.
In the planning for the Howland landing, Amelia did not attend the meetings in Washington with the Coast Guard. Instead, George Putnam, her husband and without any aeronautical qualifications, attended and he was specifically informed of the radio frequencies that the Coast Guard ship would have for communications. Nevertheless, Amelia asked the Coast Guard ship to transmitt on a frequency that she should have known the Coast Guard didn't have.
Perhaps the metal in the engines would be more detectable than the aluminum airframe. But the general consensus of opinion, excluding the group that is looking several hundred miles south of Howland, is that Amelia went into the water probably not more than about 50 miles northwest of Howland.
But the flight was very poorly planned, since as has already been pointed out, trying to locate Howland Island, a very small island, at sunrise with the sun in your eyes and having been awake about 24 hours and flying about 20 of those hours, is really pushing your luck.
Robert99
georger 197
It is questionable if Amelia could make a successful ditching. She was not an overable capable pilot in the first place and she had already exposed her lack of knowledge when she asked the Coast Guard ship at Howland to give her a DF steer and then didn't give the "long count" that was necessary for that steer.
In the planning for the Howland landing, Amelia did not attend the meetings in Washington with the Coast Guard. Instead, George Putnam, her husband and without any aeronautical qualifications, attended and he was specifically informed of the radio frequencies that the Coast Guard ship would have for communications. Nevertheless, Amelia asked the Coast Guard ship to transmitt on a frequency that she should have known the Coast Guard didn't have.
Perhaps the metal in the engines would be more detectable than the aluminum airframe. But the general consensus of opinion, excluding the group that is looking several hundred miles south of Howland, is that Amelia went into the water probably not more than about 50 miles northwest of Howland.
But the flight was very poorly planned, since as has already been pointed out, trying to locate Howland Island, a very small island, at sunrise with the sun in your eyes and having been awake about 24 hours and flying about 20 of those hours, is really pushing your luck.
Robert99
What of the report Earhart was arguing with Noonan during one transmission? In the planning for the Howland landing, Amelia did not attend the meetings in Washington with the Coast Guard. Instead, George Putnam, her husband and without any aeronautical qualifications, attended and he was specifically informed of the radio frequencies that the Coast Guard ship would have for communications. Nevertheless, Amelia asked the Coast Guard ship to transmitt on a frequency that she should have known the Coast Guard didn't have.
Perhaps the metal in the engines would be more detectable than the aluminum airframe. But the general consensus of opinion, excluding the group that is looking several hundred miles south of Howland, is that Amelia went into the water probably not more than about 50 miles northwest of Howland.
But the flight was very poorly planned, since as has already been pointed out, trying to locate Howland Island, a very small island, at sunrise with the sun in your eyes and having been awake about 24 hours and flying about 20 of those hours, is really pushing your luck.
Robert99
..................................................................
from wiki:
During Earhart and Noonan's approach to Howland Island the Itasca received strong and clear voice transmissions from Earhart identifying as KHAQQ but she apparently was unable to hear voice transmissions from the ship. At 7:42 a.m. Earhart radioed "We must be on you, but cannot see you—but gas is running low. Have been unable to reach you by radio. We are flying at 1,000 feet." Her 7:58 a.m. transmission said she couldn't hear the Itasca and asked them to send voice signals so she could try to take a radio bearing (this transmission was reported by the Itasca as the loudest possible signal, indicating Earhart and Noonan were in the immediate area). They couldn't send voice at the frequency she asked for, so Morse code signals were sent instead. Earhart acknowledged receiving these but said she was unable to determine their direction.[102]
In her last known transmission at 8:43 a.m. Earhart broadcast "We are on the line 157 337. We will repeat this message. We will repeat this on 6210 kilocycles. Wait." However, a few moments later she was back on the same frequency (3105 kHz) with a transmission which was logged as a "questionable": "We are running on line north and south."[103] Earhart's transmissions seemed to indicate she and Noonan believed they had reached Howland's charted position, which was incorrect by about five nautical miles (10 km). The Itasca used her oil-fired boilers to generate smoke for a period of time but the fliers apparently did not see it. The many scattered clouds in the area around Howland Island have also been cited as a problem: their dark shadows on the ocean surface may have been almost indistinguishable from the island's subdued and very flat profile.
Whether any post-loss radio signals were received from Earhart and Noonan remains controversial. If transmissions were received from the Electra, most if not all were weak and hopelessly garbled. Earhart's voice transmissions to Howland were on 3105 kHz, a frequency restricted to aviation use in the United States by the FCC.[104] This frequency was not thought to be fit for broadcasts over great distances. When Earhart was at cruising altitude and midway between Lae and Howland (over 1,000 miles (1,600 km) from each) neither station heard her scheduled transmission at 0815 GCT.[105] Moreover, the 50-watt transmitter used by Earhart was attached to a less-than-optimum-length V-type antenna.[106] [107]
The last voice transmission received on Howland Island from Earhart indicated she and Noonan were flying along a line of position (taken from a "sun line" running on 157–337 degrees) which Noonan would have calculated and drawn on a chart as passing through Howland.[108] After all contact was lost with Howland Island, attempts were made to reach the flyers with both voice and Morse code transmissions. Operators across the Pacific and the United States may have heard signals from the downed Electra but these were unintelligible or weak.[109]
Some of these transmissions were hoaxes but others were deemed authentic. Bearings taken by Pan American Airways stations suggested signals originating from several locations, including Gardner Island.[110][111] It was noted at the time that if these signals were from Earhart and Noonan, they must have been on land with the aircraft since water would have otherwise shorted out the Electra's electrical system.[112][113] Sporadic signals were reported for four or five days after the disappearance but none yielded any understandable information.[114] The captain of the Colorado later said "There was no doubt many stations were calling the Earhart plane on the plane's frequency, some by voice and others by signals. All of these added to the confusion and doubtfulness of the authenticity of the reports."[115]
Robert99 37
Robert99
What of the report Earhart was arguing with Noonan during one transmission? ..................................................................
Noonan's navigation station was at the very rear of the aircraft cabin which he entered through the rear door. Earhart had to enter the cockpit by climbing onto the wing. There was a huge fuel tank between them in the aircraft. Noonan did not have access to the radio and their only means of communicating with each other was by passing notes on a clothes pin along a clothes line type arrangement.
The Coast Guard cutter Itasca had a state of the art radio room with experienced operators. They stated that at one point the aircraft seemed to be so close that they expected to see it when some of them stepped outside the radio room.
In celestial navigation problems such as this flight from Lae to Howland, it was standard procedure to deliberately navigate to a point either north or south of Howland and then turn in the appropriate direction to Howland. Otherwise, if you calculate that you are at Howland's location and cannot see anything, which direction do you turn? In this case, Noonan apparently elected to head to a point north of Howland and then to turn south toward the island. However, they apparently encountered the low clouds that Amelia mention in a radio transmission and were probably west of their intended longitude line which could have been caused by a very slight and undetected headwind. Also, they may have had problems with overcast cloud layers that interferred with celestial sights.
But at about the half-way point, they were sighted passing an inhabited island and may have made radio contact with it. Prior to that point, they had made several position reports. It just seems that everything went down hill starting shortly before dawn. Finally, I don't think Amelia knew Morse code. At least not well enough to decipher a message that was being sent to her.
Robert99
Farflung 0
Robert99,
Near the equator and doing a sun shot is the lowest fidelity LOP one can acquire.
The motion of the body is slower versus the mid or higher latitudes.
Who took the shot? Amelia through the front windshield? How were her skills with an octant?
Sunrise shots have the greatest atmospheric distortion as well. Day celestial supplies just one LOP where night could offer three. Except they only had the side window to shoot from. What relative bearing and dec angles would be available in that configuration?
The radios got dusted off because they were lost (my mantool opinion). Why didn't they discover they sucked at using radios during the first three quarters of the planet they flew over?
Near the equator and doing a sun shot is the lowest fidelity LOP one can acquire.
The motion of the body is slower versus the mid or higher latitudes.
Who took the shot? Amelia through the front windshield? How were her skills with an octant?
Sunrise shots have the greatest atmospheric distortion as well. Day celestial supplies just one LOP where night could offer three. Except they only had the side window to shoot from. What relative bearing and dec angles would be available in that configuration?
The radios got dusted off because they were lost (my mantool opinion). Why didn't they discover they sucked at using radios during the first three quarters of the planet they flew over?
Robert99 37
QuoteRobert99,
Near the equator and doing a sun shot is the lowest fidelity LOP one can acquire.
The motion of the body is slower versus the mid or higher latitudes.
Who took the shot? Amelia through the front windshield? How were her skills with an octant?
Sunrise shots have the greatest atmospheric distortion as well. Day celestial supplies just one LOP where night could offer three. Except they only had the side window to shoot from. What relative bearing and dec angles would be available in that configuration?
The radios got dusted off because they were lost (my mantool opinion). Why didn't they discover they sucked at using radios during the first three quarters of the planet they flew over?
Since they were very near the equator, and since it was only about 10 days since the first day of summer, when the sun popped over the horizon it would be directly into their eyes. If all else failed, a last resort could be to fly a heading toward the point where the sun came over the horizon.
There is nothing to suggest that Amelia had any experience with sextants, octants, or anything else related to celestial navigation. Also, they had apparently not used radio navigation on the flight and Amelia did not appear to know how to use it on the approach to Howland.
Several different people made a study of the flight and they all concluded it was poorly planned and executed.
I have often wonder if Sluggo remembers this post he post made on a December so long ago. I have also wondered how this Greg Larson re-acted when he got phone calls out of the blue. I knew the name was NOT correct and have waited a long time for someone to make a retraction. But it never happened. I know his name and where the divorce records were located - I even told Galen Cook, but not you guys. Ask Galen, he will back me up on this one.
Sluggo posted:
Quote
Greg Larson (Gregory Kenneth Larson) was born on November 15, 1939 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. After going to high school at Roosevelt (Minneapolis, MN), Larson attended the University of Minnesota. Larson made his professional debut in the NFL in 1961 with the New York Giants. He played for the New York Giants for his entire 13 year career.
Most people believe that 1966 was Greg Larson's best year.
I believe that sometime around 1972 he married Tina Mucklow. They were divorced just a few years after. Shortly after that, Tina entered a cloister under the name of Sister Mary Alice Mucklow.
Now, Greg runs:
Greg Larson Sports (GL Sports)
PO Box 567 | Brainerd, MN 56401
Phone: 800.950.3320
Fax: 800.950.9301
[email protected]
www.glsports.com
Then you came back at a later date and posted this:
Well,
A really good researcher, who doesn't wish to be IDed (I only mention it because I don't want anyone to think I'm taking credit) just wrote me this:
Quotescratch greg larson off the master list.
he married his hs sweetheart, he says, though is friends ironically with rataczak.
small world
Oh well! Back to the drawing board.
I am quilty of biting into these hooks myself and Snowmman fished in this hole for a long time. Too many times the taking of the bait becomes part of the Myth versus Truth - as long as this continues ...this skyjacking may never be solved.
His correct name is Allen and in 1977 he was 48 yrs old - just one yr. younger than Tina in 1977. If you want more just ask Galen Cook about this. I told him where to look and the yr...I already had all of the information, but felt he should do the rest of it on his own. I finally had to give him one more piece of information - the county.
I am not the one who found the information, but someone who read this forum befriended me by producing the documents from which this information was derived...
Sorry Sluggo, but I had to point this error out because we are all quilty of digging our spurs in before cinching the saddle strap.
I did not feel using this as an example would cause a backlashe, as it would if I used faulty information other posters have done. You came back to admitted your own errror.
Question - was that the truth about this Larson guy you found knowing the co-pilot or was this Greg Larson yanking someones chain...and having a riot doing so?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
QuoteRobert99,
Near the equator and doing a sun shot is the lowest fidelity LOP one can acquire.
The motion of the body is slower versus the mid or higher latitudes.
Who took the shot? Amelia through the front windshield? How were her skills with an octant?
Sunrise shots have the greatest atmospheric distortion as well. Day celestial supplies just one LOP where night could offer three. Except they only had the side window to shoot from. What relative bearing and dec angles would be available in that configuration?
The radios got dusted off because they were lost (my mantool opinion). Why didn't they discover they sucked at using radios during the first three quarters of the planet they flew over?
Ummm...
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
nigel99 144
Quote
Let's say I told you two years ago I ate a cookie and you don't believe me. How the hell are you going to prove I didn't?
I might not have any proof I ate the cookie, but you sure as hell don't have any proof I didn't.
Does that mean I'm a liar and need to stop telling my cookie story because I don't have proof? No.
What it means is, if you want disprove my story, you're going to have to put up some actual evidence to the contrary, like show I was locked away with absolutely no access to cookies.
Without video it didn't happen.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
quade 3
QuoteThe radios got dusted off because they were lost (my mantool opinion). Why didn't they discover they sucked at using radios during the first three quarters of the planet they flew over?
That one is actually fairly easy; previous to that point, it really didn't matter much. As long as they had fairly decent visibility, they could muddle their way via visual reference to the ground and maps (aka pilotage). Trying to home in on a radio station also requires there to BE a radio station and lots of the places they were flying over simply didn't have them.
The only "tricky" leg up to that point was from South America to Africa, but that would be made all in one hop with fuel to spare. Screw that up and they'd have to land at an unintended spot, but they'd still be on dry land and they'd be able to chalk it up to a "grand adventure" yet still be quite safe.
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Explorers_Record_Setters_and_Daredevils/earhart/EX29G5_hi.jpg
It's very difficult to "miss" the continent of Africa. By contrast, finding Howland was like looking for a needle in a haystack with very little room for error.
The saving grace in all of it was supposed to be the Coast Guard providing them with a signal they could home in on. Unfortunately, they appear to have failed at doing that. The technology for doing it was pretty flippin' crude and I can easily imagine a person that hasn't used one a lot could make a number of errors including flying 180° opposite of the way they wanted.
OK, I've got to stop this now . . . this ain't the flippin' Earhart thread.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
Farflung 0
QuoteQuoteRobert99,
Near the equator and doing a sun shot is the lowest fidelity LOP one can acquire.
The motion of the body is slower versus the mid or higher latitudes.
Who took the shot? Amelia through the front windshield? How were her skills with an octant?
Sunrise shots have the greatest atmospheric distortion as well. Day celestial supplies just one LOP where night could offer three. Except they only had the side window to shoot from. What relative bearing and dec angles would be available in that configuration?
The radios got dusted off because they were lost (my mantool opinion). Why didn't they discover they sucked at using radios during the first three quarters of the planet they flew over?
Ummm...
Ahhhh.....
Now THAT'S funny!!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Orange1 0
QuoteQuoteAmelia's Lockheed will be found with good old hard work (months at sea in tedious pattern searching), towed side scanning sonar and a bit of luck.
Disagree.
It's a much smaller target than the Titanic. The Titanic's location was known and it left a huge debris field that could be followed back to the main wreckage.
The Lockheed Electra could still be all in one piece or it could be in a lot of very small pieces depending on how it impacted the water. My guess is that while they were lost and ran out of fuel, they could still make a reasonable ditching and land in one piece. It would float, but not indefinitely. My guess is it's probably resting on the bottom somewhere, but where that is could be within thousands of square miles.
Are there any statistics on "successful" ditches? And any idea how much was known about how to ditch properly in the days she was flying? (i.e. would she have had a reasonable idea of how to do it with least damage or would it have been more luck?)
Edited to point out I posted this before I got to Robert99's post where he argues she would not have know how to ditch properly. Still interested in stats if they are out there.
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