What's a polite way of saying "no"?

[Jiggs 0]

Hey all, just starting to organise some loads and I was wondering if anyone has thought of (or heard) any polite ways of telling people that they can't (or shouldn't) be on a load. Its a real hassle in situations where you have to turn down jumpers that are just not ready or able to do certain things. Any idea's on how to let them down gently?

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[christoofar 0]

"no."

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[SniperCJ 0]

As long as its "No, I'm not sure you have the experience level needed on this jump" and not "No, youre not with the "In" crowd around here."

There are a few load organizers out there that get into some of that elitism BS, "Youre not good enough to be on MY skydive" crap. Kinda kills the whole purpose of being an organizer.

[FallnAngel 0]

I believe honesty is the best way to go here. It's ok to say no!

But also, instead of just turning the person away, how about hooking them up with other jumpers around their same skill level? We do this *all* the time at my DZ...single jumpers, low-timers, jumpers that want to work on particular skills...we get matched up, and have a fabulous day of jumping!

Colorful canopies,
Karen

[CanuckInUSA 0]

It's always nice to occasionally do some sort of sport with someone who is better than you to help you improve (assuming you don't slow them down too much). But it's also important to do the sport with people your own calibre. I can't help but think of skiing or hockey when I think of this analogy. I surely don't want to ski with a novice skier when I can ski black and double blacks just as I don't want to play hockey with ankle bitters when I've played hockey at the college level. So now that I'm a newbie to skydiving, I must assume that there will be times when I can't jump with the ultra-experienced folks.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Michele 1]

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But also, instead of just turning the person away, how about hooking them up with other jumpers around their same skill level? We do this *all* the time at my DZ...single jumpers, low-timers, jumpers that want to work on particular skills...we get matched up, and have a fabulous day of jumping!

Please, please please do that. The last time I was at "my" dz, I was turned down 6 different times (from several different people, including the L/O) I was not given a reason, or an alternative, and not once was I "allowed" to participate. I did one solo, and left. Had someone decided to hook up with me, it would have been a great day - as it was, I left feeling like I was a) unwanted, b) incapable and c) ignored.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[quade 3]

Interesting topic.

I realize that probably not every DZ can do this, but it sure would be nice if the larger ones actually split their groups up into experienced and inexperienced groups and developed the people in the inexperienced group.

It ticks me off to see people that really would like to get on better loads not have the chance to improve themselves because there's only one concept of L/Oing -- try to get everyone on the plane as many times as possible, even if it means funnel load after funnel load.

What -I'd- like to see is freshly minted "A"s getting brought over to some sort of "Mentor" that could teach them the basics of RW. This person would hopefully hold at least a coaches rating. Maybe all the Mentor does is one exit over and over all freekin' day long and the same 2 or 3 inside facing randoms, but this would give the newbie a chance to actually IMPROVE at what they're trying to do.

I know of at least one DZ that used to have a program like this and unfortunately it was dropped/lost over the course of time.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Shark 0]

At Elsinore we typically have an Experienced group and low-timers. The low-time LO, depending on the skill level, will not get any larger than a 5 way. We also encourage our low-timers to take advantage of our 2 way skills group which fosters individual flying skills with an experienced coach. Many, including myself, have gone on to other disciplines or improved their RW skills. One participant is now on a nationally ranked AA team. It is a good program which doesn't leave anybody "out." I often tell the newbies to find me if they want to do a 2 way or to sharpen their skills. It works for us.

Shark
CCS-1242

[PhreeZone 15]

Our DZ 4 way team broke up this year on purpose and all the members are now doing more RW jumps to bring the entire DZ's skill level up. Its working nicely from my viewpoint 8-10 feet above them. Some low timers are now getting in on 10+ point 4 ways and 5+ point block formation 8 ways. The former LO is now doing 4 way to diverify his skill set to make him a better LO next summer.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skymut 0]

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Please, please please do that. The last time I was at "my" dz, I was turned down 6 different times (from several different people, including the L/O) I was not given a reason, or an alternative, and not once was I "allowed" to participate. I did one solo, and left. Had someone decided to hook up with me, it would have been a great day - as it was, I left feeling like I was a) unwanted, b) incapable and c) ignored.
Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

I've felt like that more than once myself. I think that trying to match low timers up with a mentor is an awesome idea.

Matt
A well-informed person is somebody who has the same views and opinions as yours.

[jtval 0]

I think that trying to match low timers up with a mentor is an awesome idea.

kinda like the jedi thing. (Sorry I know it was dumb)

There are two ways I look at this.
"NO" isnt a bad word. If you honestly believe the low timer/experience(thats me)
is going to hurt someone. then tell him/her.
"look I appreacite your eagerness but Im not comfortable with putting you on this looad. i think it would do you a disservice on this one.

BUT THEN:
remember that person when a load comes up that you think you can put him/her on. the only way we learn is to experience. I dont wanna go on a 100 way not for a while. I need alot of experience and I recongnize that(as do most i think) but ive had the opportunity to get on a ten way when I wasnt ready...I even mentioned that. I said I would love to but i only have 40+ jumps(at that time) they said well put you as base and dock around you. pretty awesome. even though i didint do any thing but fall i was thrilled to log that jump.

my piont is. dont turn people away just b/c of thier jump #'s but but feel obligated to put 'em on a load b/c you feel bad for them! they HAVE to understand that safety is first.
oh yea and you may make a few bad call here and there, but I would rather deny someone then expain why they got hurt!.

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[Michele 1]

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they HAVE to understand that safety is first.

See, I do understand that safety is first. I have no problem with that. It's when you don't kiss ass well enough, or aren't in the "in" crowd, or whatever. I don't care how busy it gets at Perris - when there is a skills camp going, with lots of people jumping at the camp, and two other LO's working, there shouldn't have been a reason I was turned down 6 times, you know?

I want a mentor. Any volunteers? I'm nice, and I don't bite...too hard...

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[quade 3]

Michele --

Your story really pisses me off if they actually turned you down 6 times. I don't think this it's because you're not in with the in crowd. PLEASE don't take this as a dig, but at your level there just isn't any such thing at our drop zone -- everyone should be made welcome. I -will- admit there is a bit of the "Sky God" thing at some of the upper levels. There are some jumps that just about anyone would have a hard time getting on. But the visitor/weekend warrior/newbie is -specifically- supposed to be catered to at "our" DZ by the LO program.

My -guess- is that you need to show up a bit more often (after you heal, naturally) and match up with some skydivers of your own fall rate and ability. Find two or three other people like that and if you can't find an LO to take you up, find me and I'll figure something out for you. Maybe they need a talking to by Jack.

After hearing your story, I'd personally take you up, but, uh, to tell the truth, I kinda suck at RW now.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Michele 1]

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After hearing your story, I'd personally take you up, but, uh, to tell the truth, I kinda suck at RW now.

and...

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match up with some skydivers of your own fall rate and ability

Kewlio. Then we match, right? LOL....will you be there on Sunday?

The main L/O turned me down 4 times - and gave me crapola about being on ESPN, too...as a matter of fact, he has NEVER invited me on any load, other than 2 two-ways for my coach jumps, but that was because I was packing for him while learning to pack (perhaps a corelation here?) The other two turndowns were: one from someone I had jumped with in the past, and one from someone who is very experienced and not willing to "jump with a newbie" (their words)...the main L/O suggested I jump with someone, but that particular person is not necessarily safe, even though he has more jumps than me, and so I didn't feel safe with him in the least. Actually, the only L/O I have ever jumped with is Linda Hardesty (our very own Hot Tamaly)...other than that, I have only jumped with Lisa (The Bytch rawks!) and John Brasher (Jbrasher rawks too!).

I have been asked to jump by Cptnstrtn, and Albi, and Steve (not SBS), but haven't been able to make those jumps for whatever reason (usually I'm tired by then).

The problem is that people with the very low jump numbers that I have are worried about safety (both our own and others'), and because of that,
I know that I am hesitant to get in the air with people of similar jump numbers - but perhaps that's something I have to get over...

I still think you and I should "just jump!", but I know you get really busy with your camera stuff. And BTW, I have learned how to control my fall rate so that Lisa's thing recorded 124mph (twice), and not the 143 I had been doing.

Yeah, Quade, it really does piss me off, too. It's hard to be "friendless" at such a large DZ like Perris.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[ltdiver 3]

Hey, wait a minute, Michele!
Haven't I offered to take you up on more than one occasion?
As has several members of my team?

Sorry you've had a hard time with the L/O crowd, but count yourself lucky to not be there on some of their 'funnel-ways' that kinda scare us video people when we look through the lens.

I remember as a newbie I was a bit hurt by a new 'friend' who skydived with me twice, then counseled me to do 2-ways until I could turn 20 points. Only then, did he say, should I attempt anything bigger. I was hurt, yeah, but looking back on it, it was solid advice.

I got my just rewards, though, when this same guy showed up 5 years later (just recently) and now HE was the lower-time jumper! he needed to practice to get back in the game with me! That was sweet!

However, I had taken his advice and did just what he said. I found a couple other people (so I would always have someone at the DZ to skydive with no matter what weekend I showed up) and did too many 2-ways to count now. Had LOADS of fun, too!

Guess I'm just trying to tell my story of how it felt to be turned down, how 'sage' advice was given, and taken, and made a difference.

So, Michele...our offer stands again. Do you want to skydive with us? My team's training this weekend, but let's link up when we're not and let's have some fun!

We love you, Michele. You know that. We've missed you, too, while you've been healing. Get well and come back soon!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[drenaline 0]

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any polite ways of telling people that they can't (or shouldn't) be on a load.

Take a look at the log book and say "I'm sorry but you need a bit more experience to be on this load" and try to organize them in another load.

Like everybody agrees, its all about safety.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[Michele 1]

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Hey, wait a minute, Michele!
Haven't I offered to take you up on more than one occasion?
As has several members of my team?

You are totally right, Lori, my bad . You absolutely have, in addition to several of your team (which I mentioned - Albie, and Cptnstrttn/Steve...). Forgive me? >>>>>>>>>hugs<<<<<<<<<<)... Please? You guys are the absolute bestest and I love you too...

My biggest concern when y'all are out there is that you are training, and I don't want to disturb that (and you know how sore and tired I am at the end of the day). But I plan to be there on Wednesday (trying to figure out the landings), and again on Sunday (still trying to figure out the landings)...maybe in the afternoon on Sunday I can jump with one or more of you? Dream: me, Steve, Chris, with you on vid....that would be a true hoot! Look for me, o.k.? And I'll look for you. I am going to be on the 210 from here on in, too, so I really have a challenge on my hands.

Love you, Lori and all of Rebellion (but especially those gorgeous hunks Steve and Albie...
Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Albatross 0]

Offer stand any day that I am not training. I will find some way to fall with you even if it means jumping naked (strapped down of course. Damn streammer). I have weights and can always work on my fast fall. You can work on a slightly less arched position girls I have seen pics of you. You look like a U. "Damn gumby girls" <>

P.S. click on the message icon at the top of the page to get my not if not e-mail or call me. They were just ideas to get free stuff for your staring role.

P.P.S. I am very proud to know you. Will you still talk to us when you are a big star?

Chris

[Michele 1]

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P.S. click on the message icon at the top of the page to get my not if not e-mail or call me. They were just ideas to get free stuff for your staring role.

Cool...something is off with my pms...I'll call or e-mail.

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P.P.S. I am very proud to know you. Will you still talk to us when you are a big star?

I am so not going to be a big star....and even if I were, it's still just me, you know? Of course I'll talk to you - provided I can jump with you when y'all win Nationals...

hugs to you, Chris!

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[jtval 0]

It's when you don't kiss ass well enough, or aren't in the "in" crowd, or whatever

I amfortunate enough to
A) not have encounter this yet
B) been too stupid to notice
(prob'ly option B)

1 of my coolest jumps was a two way. soem guy John"CHILI" stopped in thomaston. i did a few 3&4 ways with him then when everyone was all SPENT OUT.
we went on a two way he was the LO fro most of the day. so I asked what he wanted to do. he said. I will hold a staedy fall you try to dock on all 4 pionts. Thats a Pretty cool dude. he had enough experience to jump big ways but he hooked me up with a VERY HELPFUL learning jump. he was driving his Rig through town and stopped in. I thought that was pretty cool of him!




"I'm sorry but you need a bit more experience to be on this load"
sometimes #'s doesnt equal experience though. Keep that in mind!

My photos

My Videos

[okalb 79]

What I generally do is tell the lower experienced jumpers that they should try to show up at the DZ early.

Throughout the day, my organized loads generally grow to the point where more experience is required. Anyone who needs a little more attention or just wants to work on certain skills can come before the group gets too big and we can work on whatever they want.

It is important to explain to them early that at some point during the day when the group gets too large that they may be asked to step down. That way, they are not upset when you tell them that it is time.

Giving them a chance to jump on the smaller loads helps give them the confidence that they need to stick around as the group grows. And it is a cool thing for me to watch my early morning newbies become my late afternoon big way jumpers.

Just a though, but it works for me.

-Oren

[coconutmonkey 0]

L/O at a DZ where you can expect low jumpers to be present should try and arrange for a coach or instructor to take charge of organizing them into 2-4 way groups and working skills drills for their experience level or be prepared to take the time out to do it themselves. Training our younger jumpers keeps the sport alive, safe and prepares them to participate in larger groups once their skills have matured. Knowing that everybody wants to be involved in the cool stuff leaves providing an alternative organized jump as the implied task for any DZ L/O.
P.S. - Michele, ever head out to the east coast we'll make sure some skymonkies hook ya up!

Hearts & Minds
2 to the Heart-
1 to the Mind-
Home of the Coconut Lounge, Spa, & Artillery Range

[TequilaGirl 0]

Michelle when I had a under 100 jumps - this happened to me a lot.....I was given one piece of advice which I hate to admit was right - get on the plane - let others see you on the plane - the more you are on the plane - the better chances you have of getting on organized loads.......

[coho21 0]

Michele,

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. (Newbie with low time)I'd gladly jump with you anytime you want. I'm down here for the summer and have nothing else to do on the weekends but fall out of planes.

PM me if you want and we can plan something for the next time I'm out there.

BS
Jensen

J
YSD#0009

[Shark 0]

Did anyone read my post???!

Anyway, one reason is that the experienced group doesn't want a "newbie" to fuck-up their skydive. At least that's the perception. By doing lots of small formations, ideally 2 or 3 ways, the newbie can improve their skills, then the LO can take notice and eventually invite them on an LO. Newbies always have somebody to jump with at 'Snore.

Michele, you are always welcome at the Lake. Remember the Chick's Rock Boogie? We'll take care of ya!