howardwhite 5 #1 October 26, 2002 One of the questions in the 2001 SIM for Category H (a potential question for A licence candidates) is, paraphrased, "what is the maximum acceptable wear for a main closing loop?" The "answer" is 10 percent. The next question is how do you determine that a main closing loop is 10 percent worn? On the Category G test, there is a question which approximates "what precautionary measures do you take when you have an AAD and are near the open door of an aircraft?" The approximate answer is "this is dangerous," but it doesn't suggest what precautions USPA had in mind. Have these been changed in the newest SIM? If so, how? If not, what do you think? HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 October 26, 2002 Oh, the USPA tests are, well, not exactly the most well written tests ever conceived. Basically, it's just like everything else in skydiving -- deal with it and move on. If you'd like some guidance in HOW to deal with it -- I suggest checking out makeithappen.com and getting the test guide -- either that or simply study the actual SIM, know it forwards and backwards and accept a certain amount of wacky-shit questions that will have no really valid answer.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #3 October 26, 2002 QuoteOne of the questions in the 2001 SIM for Category H (a potential question for A licence candidates) is, paraphrased, "what is the maximum acceptable wear for a main closing loop?" The "answer" is 10 percent. The next question is how do you determine that a main closing loop is 10 percent worn? The way I decided mine was probably worn too much was by looking at the discarded ones on the packing floor, mine looks worse than some of those so I'm changing mine after the first jump tomorrow -- Hook high, flare on time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #4 October 26, 2002 I figure when the closing loop starts looking more 'fuzzy' than it does 'brand new' it is time for a new one. I get a new closing loop ever repack cycle so I haven't personally seen a frayed/ worn loop since I was a student 3 years ago. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Void425 0 #5 October 26, 2002 The main question I would see myself asking is " Do you trust that loop the next time you jump? Is is worth the risk it might break before it should?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #6 October 26, 2002 QuoteOne of the questions in the 2001 SIM for Category H (a potential question for A licence candidates) is, paraphrased, "what is the maximum acceptable wear for a main closing loop?" The "answer" is 10 percent. The next question is how do you determine that a main closing loop is 10 percent worn? On the Category G test, there is a question which approximates "what precautionary measures do you take when you have an AAD and are near the open door of an aircraft?" The approximate answer is "this is dangerous," but it doesn't suggest what precautions USPA had in mind. Have these been changed in the newest SIM? If so, how? If not, what do you think? HW The new category tests in the 2003 SIM are basically the same as the 2001 version. The concept behind the tests is for the instructor to conduct an oral quiz of the material and provide discussion. The questions are mostly just a starting off point for that discussion. The questions are all published in the SIM so the student has a guide, and knows what material he/she must learn. The hope is that if a school isn't teaching some things, the students will recognize the oversight and quiz the instructors. My DZ doesn't use the ISP, but of course we do have a final exam for the A license based on the SIM questions. I simply ask the questions and expect a student to offer general discussion. I don't look for the specific answer listed with the question, but rather knowledge of the subject. The category H quiz still has the question about visible wear on a main closing loop, and the stated answer is 10 percent. There is no longer a question about how to determine that. I don't think anybody is going to meter 10 percent, but a student should know what level of wear can be a problem. If the student is unsure of what 10 percent is, we can easily look at a few rigs, and I have some overworn loops in my rigging bag. There is also an oral question on the H quiz that asks what the danger is of a worn closing loop and the answer offered is "premature deployment." The G tests still includes the question about AAD's, as follows: "What extra care is required when wearing an AAD near the open door of an aircraft or when climbing out?" The published answer is " AAD activation near the open door of an aircraft presents a dangerous situation." I agree that the answer is pretty weak, but the discussion point is important, and students should understand that an AAD could misfire. If I use this question I like to discuss different models of AAD's and the maintenance requirements of each, and discuss different airplanes and how to keep your backpack facing inside the plane whenever possible. Obviously we can't prevent an AAD from firing when outside the plane, but we can minimize the occurrence. This questions addresses that effort. If you really object to any of the questions or answers you can write a letter to the Director of Safety and Training at USPA and request a change or improvement when the SIM is next updated. They really do appreciate comments from the field. Tom Buchanan Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) S&TA, etc.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 October 26, 2002 When your closing loop starts to fray, replace it! Period! The last thing we need is a repeat of last week's jump plane crash in Oregon. Rob Warner FAA Master Rigger S/L, IAD, PFF and Tandem Instructor pompous old fart, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #8 October 26, 2002 QuoteWhen your closing loop starts to fray, replace it! Period! The last thing we need is a repeat of last week's jump plane crash in Oregon. Agreed, loop wear is a very bad thing. With that understood, students will often see a few loose fibers on a loop that has been used just a couple of times and consider it enough wear to replace the loop. That level of concern is nuts. The 10 percent guideline is small enough that wear at that level won't cause failure, but it will prevent further damage. The concept behind the question is for an instructor or rigger to discuss that issue, and provide the student with real world considerations. That's why I like to play show-and-tell with real rigs and loops that are in service. -tom b.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #9 October 26, 2002 A (very experienced) skydiver gave me the tip to use two closing loops. I've been doing so for about the last 100 jumps without problems (I have kevlar cables instead of a closing pin). What are your opinions on using two closing loops? Will Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #10 October 26, 2002 Quote A (very experienced) skydiver gave me the tip to use two closing loops. I've been doing so for about the last 100 jumps without problems (I have kevlar cables instead of a closing pin). What are your opinions on using two closing loops? Will I have never heard of that. But it seems like overkill to me. The failure of a closing loop is a simple problem to prevent, and I'd rather not add complexity with an additional loop or cable. In the tandem world we use a continuous loop and two cables, but thats a unique application, and even so, we have only one loop. If what you have is a split cable and two loops I would worry about the increased likelihood of one cable snagging and causing a pilot chute in tow. That's just a quick thought. As I said, I haven't seen your system. I'm interested in what others have to say. And of course, you should always check with the manufacturer before modifying gear. In my experience every manufacturer is happy to discuss field alterations, and is probably the best source of information about specific modifications. -tom b.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 5 #11 October 26, 2002 This is not for me, and it's not on a written test. I was listening to a coach giving an A quiz yesterday and she told the student "that's a gay guestion." I know all the answers are in the SIM; I just think it's counterproductive for a student to have to memorize stuff that doesn't make sense. Sure, it's important for a jumper to understand the importance of looking for closing loop wear, but the "fuzzy" suggestions made here match what I heard from others at the DZ, including a master rigger. It's also important to have jumpers understand the consequences of an AAD firing in the door, but the Cat G question implies there's an "answer" which is not provided. I respect the amount of effort that has gone into the SIM and continues, but I hope coaches/instructors will recognize they need to "intepret" some of the advice. HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #12 October 27, 2002 >A (very experienced) skydiver gave me the tip to use two >closing loops. I've been doing so for about the last 100 jumps >without problems (I have kevlar cables instead of a closing pin). > >What are your opinions on using two closing loops? What rig are you using? Can you post pictures of your system? I too think that the increased complexity of the system weighs more than the increased security of a 'backup' loop. It's so easy to change a worn closing loop that I see no reason to re-invent the wheel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #13 October 27, 2002 I'm using a Wings. There is no increased complexity, I simply use two closing loops instead of one. Yes it is easy to change a closing loop, but I like having two. Bear in mind that I have the kevlar cables instead of a pin (this has been discussed previously), I am happy with using two loops on this mod. Using the kevlar cables you actually need to be careful of a loop that is too tight - if it puts a kink in the cable you could have a pilot chute in tow. Using two loops lessens the risk of this. Will Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,433 #14 October 27, 2002 >A (very experienced) skydiver gave me the tip to use two closing >loops. I would recommend against this. The chances of managing to lock one loop against another, thus giving you a PC-in-tow (especially with a soft pin) seem to outweigh the chances it will prevent an out of sequence deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,433 #15 October 27, 2002 >When your closing loop starts to fray, replace it! Period! Although I agree with your sentiment, your loop starts to fray on your first jump with it. Thus the requirement to come up with a reasonable limit of wear. When mine is significantly frayed (i.e. at least one yarn is worn completely through, or nearly so) I replace mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #16 October 27, 2002 I'm thinking that at this point photos might be appropriate.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #17 October 27, 2002 No problem, except that I am still at work. Will post some pics tomorrow night. Oops, sorry, read thread in flat mode and thought you wanted pics from me (following feedback from billvon). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #18 October 29, 2002 At the start of the season this year, I took it upon myself to contact most rig manufacturers and order 25 or more closing loops from each of them..... We made up some "membership benefits packages" to issue to each renewing Club Member... In addition to stickers, labels, pull up cords, membership cards, certificates,,, and other "goodies",,,,,,, we also made available to "everyone",,, members and Guests alike....... replacement closing loops,,, at no charge,,,, so that No One would have a reason to delay the replacement of a worn loop...."just ask at Manifest"... People were then not tempted to "squeeze out another weekend or two" with loops that were borderline dangerous.....a small effort,,, for great peace of mind....... jimmeetee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #19 October 29, 2002 What a cool idea Jimmy T.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #20 October 29, 2002 That is a great idea. I think most jumpers just wait til they drop off the rig for a reserve repack and just ask the rigger to change it then. When i was at Skydive Greene County over the summer, they had a big box of closing loops in the packing hanger. They were free for everyone. It impressed me that they were so concerned with safety that they made them available at no cost. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #21 October 29, 2002 Blue Sky Adventures (St. George, SC) has blue closing loops. People sit around on rainy days and chill out, making closing loops. They cost about a penny to make. They use blue fabric dye to make 'em blue. Every once in awhile you hear "Closing loops are free!" in the packing area. Someone being reminded to replace their frayed closing loop. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #22 October 29, 2002 We use WHITE ones,,,,,,,,,cause around here,,, Upstate New York,,, near Buffalo... the ground is usually covered in WHITE for about 6 months each yearhahaha... JT Frontier Skydivers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #23 October 29, 2002 Quote I think most jumpers just wait til they drop off the rig for a reserve repack and just ask the rigger to change it then. These people should jump more often. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
