pilot chute in tow procedure

[joebrunning 0]

my dropzone teaches to cut away with a pilot chute in tow. i remember john leBlanc teaching in a seminar years ago "don't cut away". his advice was better 2 canopies out than having the main jarred out from reserve opening shock and entangling with the reserve as it leaves. ANYBODY? thanks

[faulk04 0]

From the SIM: I prefer #1.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 1:
Pull the reserve immediately. A pilot-chute-in-tow malfunctions is associated with a high descent rate and requires immediate action. The chance of a main-reserve entanglement is slim, and valuable time and altitude could be lost by initiating a cutaway prior to deploying the reserve. Be prepared to cutaway.

Pilot chute in tow procedure 2:
Cut away, then immediately deploy the reserve.Because there is a chance the main parachute could deploy duringor as a result of the reserve activation, a cutaway might be the best response in some situations.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

i remember john leBlanc teaching in a seminar years ago "don't cut away". his advice was better 2 canopies out than having the main jarred out from reserve opening shock and entangling with the reserve as it leaves

I agree with the above. I would rather have a two-out, and retain control over when (or if) the main leaves, as opposed to the pulling the handle with no idea when (or if) the main is going to leave.

However, this adds another mental step to the EPs. First you decide that you have a malfunction, then you must decide to pull two handles or just the one, then you must act on that.

Compare that to the alternative. First you decide you have a malfunction, then you perform the one procedure that you practiced.

The latter scenario is less complicated, and probably better suited toward a student jumper who will probably have 'a lot' going on in their head during any sort of malfunction. When you consider that, along with the idea that pulling the red handle can be harmless/helpful in any number of closed-container mals, it seem clear that the choice for student training remains a single procedure where they pull both handles.

[popsjumper 2]

davelepka

Quote

i remember john leBlanc teaching in a seminar years ago "don't cut away". his advice was better 2 canopies out than having the main jarred out from reserve opening shock and entangling with the reserve as it leaves

I agree with the above. I would rather have a two-out, and retain control over when (or if) the main leaves, as opposed to the pulling the handle with no idea when (or if) the main is going to leave.

Same here.

Quote

However, this adds another mental step to the EPs. First you decide that you have a malfunction, then you must decide to pull two handles or just the one, then you must act on that.

Compare that to the alternative. First you decide you have a malfunction, then you perform the one procedure that you practiced.

Disagree in that you train for either one. Decision-making is the same...you still have to deal with what you are left with regardless of how many handles you pulled. As far as time...less time to pull one than two.

Quote

The latter scenario is less complicated, and probably better suited toward a student jumper who will probably have 'a lot' going on in their head during any sort of malfunction. When you consider that, along with the idea that pulling the red handle can be harmless/helpful in any number of closed-container mals, it seem clear that the choice for student training remains a single procedure where they pull both handles.

I have never been a proponent of the K.I.S.S. principle.
You train students for one or the other...one is effectively just as good as the other.

So, if you train them for pull reserve and they "screw up" and pull both ...pretty much no harm, no foul.


And for support of the pull reserve method:
Releasing the main removes all control of it...not good because you just may need that main when the reserve isn't flying...even if for nothing more than more material out. We've recently seen a vid of the main being the saving factor after an entanglement because he still had connection to the main risers....and avoiding an entry in the blue skies forum.

Automatically releasing the main first denies you the option of releasing it at a more opportune time.

Whether or not pulling the cutaway being harmless/helpful, roll the dice takes your chances....you have no better guess than that but you can bet on not having access to the risers and/or that extra bit of material out.

Before anyone starts on the likelihood of entanglements...it's just as likely with one method as the other; it's a crapshoot.

YMMV

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Bertt 0]

My concern is if an inexperienced student confuses a bag lock for a pilot chute in tow and doesn't cut away when he needs to.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[grue 1]

popsjumper

We've recently seen a vid of the main being the saving factor after an entanglement because he still had connection to the main risers....and avoiding an entry in the blue skies forum.

have a link perchance?

cavete terrae.

[Trev_S 0]

In Aus (at least at some of the DZ's I've been to) the student rigs are fitted with double RSL's, not sure if that's the correct term but basically pulling the reserve handle also cuts away your main.

Obviously this is to prevent students performing out of sequence EP's however regular EP's are drilled regardless.

[grue 1]

Trev_S

In Aus (at least at some of the DZ's I've been to) the student rigs are fitted with double RSL's, not sure if that's the correct term but basically pulling the reserve handle also cuts away your main.

Obviously this is to prevent students performing out of sequence EP's however regular EP's are drilled regardless.

Single Operation Systems

cavete terrae.

[milehigheric 0]

During AFF I was trained to use both handles with pilot chute in tow. Now I have a bit of experience I have re trained myself to pull reserve only however.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Before anyone starts on the likelihood of entanglements...it's just as likely with one method as the other; it's a crapshoot

A crapshoot is right, and this is why this topic is (and has been) an 'issue' for years.

It's with the crapshoot idea in mind that we go with the simpler method of one set of EPs for students. While you are correct that the full EPs involve pulling two handles and the partial is quicker based on only being one handle, but I would suggest that blowing through the basic, practiced, physical motions of pulling both handles could be quicker than the more complex mental step of categorizing the mal and making a 'red/no-red' decision.

Deciding you have a mal is a yes/no decision. Your main is deploying normally or it's not. Narrowing that down to a closed or open container mal is a more complex decision, and thus could take longer to make. There are several variations of closed container mals, and several mals that are not closed container but still have you falling at high speeds as if your container was closed.

Take a horseshoe or bag lock. Both feature higher speeds and 'something' out over your back, just like a PC in tow. According to the 'experienced jumper' logic, the PC in tow is a reserve-only mal, but a bag lock or horseshoe is certainly a red/silver mal.

I think it's the complexity of that decision, along with the sheer volume of information and the idea of the 'crapshoot' with regards to pulling/not-pulling red that points towards to simpler solution for training students. Give them one set of EPs, and leave it at that. If they have a problem, there is one solution, no additional thinking required.

[sundevil777 93]

I agree that for students, one procedure is probably best.

I think it is interesting to consider whether experienced jumpers might mistake a bag lock for a PC in tow.

I have the decades long habit of watching my PC lift the bag out of the container, so of course I know right away if I have a PC in tow. I try to keep shoulders level, but surely there is some impact due to this habit. I do not have a canopy that is vulnerable to doing bad things due to this, and would never want a canopy that is so nervous that shoulders being super even is so important. I think the only times I don't watch the bag lift out is when there are others relatively close by on opening and I want to continuously monitor whether they are heading at me after they open.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[DiverMike 5]

Does anybody else do this? I've been taught (and prefer) to keep my head down to avoid neck injuries due to slammers. Aren't slammers more likely than a PC in tow? I've had one bag lock, and noticed/felt immediately something was amiss in the deployment process without having to look.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[ILUVCHUTERS 1]

After thinking about this for a long time, and listening to outcomes of what happened with both procedures, I made my mind up that a PIT would be straight to silver for me.

Then I had one... and, without doubting myself, went straight to silver. I ended up with a beautiful bi-plane that I landed very softely in the middle of a field right beside our DZ. Lucky me, I had just taught FJC that morning, so was quite current on two-out procedures

My firm belief is that there are pros and cons to each, and jumpers have to do their homework and weigh out the pros and cons, and make up their minds - and then STICK to the plan if that should happen to them. You don't have time to fuck around with "which one should I pull?" during a pilot chute in tow.

[airbornesoon 0]

crap shoot is right. I had a similar situation, my PC on static line stayed inside the container it wasn't in tow at all. but I had a main reserve entanglement. my worry is that if I was to cut away then pull the reserve. when the reserve deployed and it dislodged my main would it shoot up in the DBag still and my reserve catch it and deflate?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4488783;page=unread#unread

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

[billvon 2,400]

>my dropzone teaches to cut away with a pilot chute in tow.

So do we. For students one procedure is easier to remember. Once off student status people should consider the pros and cons and decide for themselves.

[diablopilot 2]

I've taught both ways, I prefer the "no breakaway, straight to reserve" method.

It's important as experienced jumpers, no matter if we disagree with a DZ's method, we DO NOT interfere with the student operation, and possibly create confusion in the minds of the students.

As an instructor, I teach the DZ's approved method, and if I don't agree with them then I don't teach there.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ILUVCHUTERS 1]

We also teach cutaway first, for the same reason - one procedure is best at that stage - and then as students become novices, we have discusisons with them on EPs and how they may "evolve".

One good thing about my PIT was that it sparked a great deal of discussion among newer (and older, for that matter) jumpers who witnessed or heard about it.

[rohicks 2]

DiverMike

Does anybody else do this? I've been taught (and prefer) to keep my head down to avoid neck injuries due to slammers. Aren't slammers more likely than a PC in tow? I've had one bag lock, and noticed/felt immediately something was amiss in the deployment process without having to look.

I was always told to do that through my AFF progression, but never did. The last 10 jumps or so I've been doing it; looking over my shoulder to check during deployment.

The Australian Parachute Federation teaches to do a cutaway and then reserve deployment.

http://youtu.be/iBNf-HsD3Ms?t=1m29s

I'm fairly certain I was taught by my instructors to cutaway and then deploy reserve during my AFF. As a student when I was going through my AFF, without much knowledge and experience on malfunctions, the only thing that ran through my head was to cutaway and pull my reserve on a malfunction that I could not clear or a canopy that I was not comfortable landing.

This thread raises a good point that I've never though about. Whether or not to cutaway during a PC in tow. I'll keep my eye on it for opinions, and possibly discuss it with some of my instructors at the DZ.

[Bluhdow 31]

I'm not sure I'd be able to differentiate a PCIT from a bag lock without looking. I'm also not too sure trying to look behind be would make things much better (time, stability)...especially in a WS.

If you had a bag lock, and not a PCIT, it seems to me that main/reserve entanglement becomes much more likely.

Correct, or am I missing something?

Apex BASE
#1816

[VictorSuvorov 0]

if you have a PCIT malfunction you will remain in belly to earth orientation.
a Bag Lock will almost certainly sit you up in your harness.

[Bluhdow 31]

VictorSuvorov

if you have a PCIT malfunction you will remain in belly to earth orientation.
a Bag Lock will almost certainly sit you up in your harness.

Even in a larger wingsuit? I think the bag, especially if locked within the first couple stows, may stay inside the burble enough to prevent it from standing you up.

I don't know that, just my hypothesis.

Apex BASE
#1816

[devildog 0]

When I had a PIC (jump 31), I initially thought it was a bag lock. I was obviously really new, and all I really knew in that split second was that I tossed my chute and nothing was happening at all. I looked as best I could for a split second and saw "something" (PC, obviously) and assumed that was the bag. So I did a peel, pull, punch and landed only then to find out that I had a PIC. From then on, Every time I pitch, I look over my shoulder and wait to see that bag come off my back so I know exactly what I've got over my head. Once I see the bag, I return to a normal head position.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[popsjumper 2]

Bertt

My concern is if an inexperienced student confuses a bag lock for a pilot chute in tow and doesn't cut away when he needs to.

Yeah...unfortunately that's not all we have to worry about with students.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

diablopilot

I've taught both ways, I prefer the "no breakaway, straight to reserve" method.

It's important as experienced jumpers, no matter if we disagree with a DZ's method, we DO NOT interfere with the student operation, and possibly create confusion in the minds of the students.

As an instructor, I teach the DZ's approved method, and if I don't agree with them then I don't teach there.

Same, except I have no problem with teaching either way...as far as I'm concerned, one is as good as the other.

I feel it's more confusing to present optional methods to a student who has already drilled one in his head. Teach 'em up front so they don't have that confusion at crunch time.

For you guys that do that..when do you most often present the options to them. Jump, 10? 20? 30?.......?

Same for SOS? When do you convert them?

How about 1-handed vs 2-handed EPs? You wouldn't want to have them change from what they first learned,would you?


Partial -cut and deploy reserve
Total - deploy reserve

Seems simple enough to me...even for students.
YMMV and all is well.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Baksteen 84]

popsjumper

Same, except I have no problem with teaching either way...as far as I'm concerned, one is as good as the other.

I feel it's more confusing to present optional methods to a student who has already drilled one in his head. Teach 'em up front so they don't have that confusion at crunch time.

For you guys that do that..when do you most often present the options to them. Jump, 10? 20? 30?.......?

Same for SOS? When do you convert them?

How about 1-handed vs 2-handed EPs? You wouldn't want to have them change from what they first learned,would you?


Partial -cut and deploy reserve
Total - deploy reserve

Seems simple enough to me...even for students.
YMMV and all is well.

We teach the following:
No opening? --> full reserve procedure

While it's absolutely true that a full procedure takes more time then just pulling your reserve ripcord, you run the risk of the student wasting much more time in the decision making process than they would have if they just cutaway and pulled the reserve.

As to your question when to introduce have them change from that, there is no clear cut answer. It depends on the individual.

Let's briefly look at line twists. We teach students to cut line twists away at exactly 2000 ft.
But no upjumper is going to cutaway if they have only two linetwists left. It's an understanding that comes with experience.

Me, I had a PCIT once due to a tightly packed Lightning 176 in my regular rig, combined with a smallish pilot chute. I had over 400 jumps at the time.
When I pulled nothing happened. I quickly realised what was going on, beat the crap out of my rig with my elbows and found myself under an inflated canopy before I could think 'ouch'. However, if that hadn't worked, for instance if I had misrouted my bridle, I would have cut away my main.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom