PhillyKev 0 #1 July 17, 2003 Just curious. The tracking thread started talking about looking around during your track. So how many people actually roll over and look above you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 July 17, 2003 A questionable use of time and energy.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #3 July 17, 2003 I agree with Quade... I can see what I need by looking left and right. You loose a good amount of lift when you do this, and you can do the same check by looking left and right. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 22 #4 July 17, 2003 depends on the jump. if i do a solo - either rw or free - i usually try to get good separation on exit so i'm more or less on the safe side. when jumping in groups i do a barrel while tracking to make shure the others are still on their heading and there's nobody above me unintentionally i'm really carefull on trackdives larger than 5 divers - not everybody on a track knows where to go after separation - had a bad experience say near freefall crashThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #5 July 17, 2003 Historically I'll do a barrel roll on a jump when I've lost track of the other people I may have been jumping with (or when I'm on a dedicated tracking dive). But after a close call last week where a guy who exiting after my group opened up feet away from me while I was under canopy, I was contemplating the thought of barrel rolling on every jump. And this was helped recently after I started to experiment with opening in a track. But I need to experiment more with some sort of procedure (break off, track a bit, barrel roll and either pull or track more and pull depending on the circumstances). Of course if I end up going low due to someone being above me, I better remember to go for my reserve as I don't want a Cypres snivel and a two out scenario. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #6 July 17, 2003 QuoteYou loose a good amount of lift when you do this, and you can do the same check by looking left and right. How do you see someone directly above you by looking left and right? My response was depends on the jump. If it's more than a 2-3 way, I roll. There have been a couple times where I've seen someone from the jump tracking pretty close to the same path as me and above. In that case I'll go a little lower to allow the person above time to either see me and alter their path or deploy themselves. In particular one memorable , impromptu 60 way out of the c130 at Rantoul last year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bkdice 0 #7 July 17, 2003 Always on tracking dives because there may be someone 100 feet above you at deployment time. I also do it on some freefly jumps - depending on how many were on the jump with me (and where they are relative to me) and who was out after me and what they were doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #8 July 17, 2003 QuoteHow do you see someone directly above you by looking left and right? When I look left and right, I can see right above me. Put your back to something...Turn your head all the way left and look left....Then right..You can see everything, without turning around. You get a 360 degree view."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #9 July 17, 2003 Barrel rolling is of questionable utility on a big dive. It decreases the distance you can track. If barrel rolling reveals someone above you, but also slows you to the point where you don't out-track him, then it's done more harm than good. You will be opening low near him instead of at the right altitude near him. OTOH it does let you keep his position in mind which is a good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #10 July 17, 2003 QuoteI agree with Quade... I can see what I need by looking left and right. You loose a good amount of lift when you do this, and you can do the same check by looking left and right. i'll agree with the limited utility, but on large jumps where we've lost a few i want the extra piece of mind.. if your already moving out you wont lose much lift. I barrel roll in tracking dives for S&Gs regularly (and switch from belly to back tracks) without falling out, but i'm never usually at a max track then either..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #11 July 17, 2003 QuoteIf barrel rolling reveals someone above you, but also slows you to the point where you don't out-track him, then it's done more harm than good But if you are tracking together at different alti's, and you roll, wouldn't that allow him to outpace you and therefore give better separation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #12 July 17, 2003 Depends on the dive. If you're an efficient tracker and can perform quick barrel rolls, it's a lot quicker than looking over each shoulder. It's a great method. With practice it's quite efficient.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #13 July 17, 2003 I tend to when I'm on bigger ways with people I don't know. I don't on Freakfly jumps or small RW jumps where I know whom I'm in the air with. I would disagree that its a waste of time and energy as it takes me less than a second on bigger RW loads and it has saved my ass twice from dumping right in someones airspace that tracked right behind me or right over me (i know i know, flat track better man!!). -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #14 July 17, 2003 I voted never. I try to be extremely vigilant in keeping tabs on those in my group, especially those in my immediate vicinity at breakoff. I have a solid track, and rarely find myself at a lower altitude than others in my group when parachutes start deploying. I was also taught to catch some air or " ride the ball" as I make my 180 on breakoff. It helps me get just slightly higher than the formation, allowing me a better view of the breakoff.It only takes a second,and since I do it as I turn, it doesn't cost me distance. Unfortunately it is of no use when freeflying. ----------------------------------------------------------Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickDraw 0 #15 July 17, 2003 I must say that i'm quite suprised by the results here, i thought i was just being a sloppy student by not looking up before deployment. I do however watch below well before deployment. -- Hope you don't die. -- I'm fucking winning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WayneRATS 0 #16 July 17, 2003 i thought it would be a no no to go anywhere near anyones back/behind near pull height... how do you roll on your back before you pull??------------------------ Can You Ere Me Now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #17 July 17, 2003 I have started tracking on my back for about 1/2 of my track. After I take off and clear my group and the airspace in front of me....I roll over and take a look around. I don't lose much momentum and it gives me a warm fuzzy. A tracking dive not long ago found me tracking on my back looking at a student canopy that was already deployed over my right shoulder and another jumper that never got on level with the tracking group above me. What fun......the jumper above deployed when she saw me below her and then I could concentrate on the student canopy..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #18 July 17, 2003 You don't want to do it as a newbie. When you have the experience to be stable in all positions and to move around freely and in control in freefall, it's not a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
QuickDraw 0 #19 July 17, 2003 Wayne, you can do whats called a barrel roll, just pull in one arm across your chest (when in the boxman) and you will flip over. Until i get some ff safe gear tracking on my back will not be a priority atm. How did you get so close to a student Clay ? was he off the previous load ? or have you lost a little weight ? -- Hope you don't die. -- I'm fucking winning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #20 July 18, 2003 Never, and it pisses me off when I see other people do it. Folks who are rolling tend to loose their direction of travel, slow down forward movement, and confuse the break off pattern. I suppose some people can do a solid on-heading roll, but I don't ever bet on it, and rarely see it accomplished. Separation begins on the dive. I work to know where everybody is at breakoff, then just watch the folks in my quad and keep track of them as I fly away. I'm always scanning left and right, and have a pretty good visual above me too. I tend to pull on the low side (2,000-2,500) so in this day and age their aren't many folks in my space, unless it's RW people on a biggish way, and they are pretty clued in. If the dive turns to a zoo, I'll breakoff a bit early, find the missing souls, then go on my merry way. When it's pull time I do a quick stop, very visual wave, then dump. There is enough time in that process so if there is somebody above me my intentions will be clear, and they will have time to slide away. I'm also very aware of people on my level, or slightly above and below, and keep track of my opening direction in case of an off heading opening that drives my parachute toward somebody else. I think awareness and consistent/predictable behavior are the keys, and I don't see a roll helping with that.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #21 July 18, 2003 QuoteHow did you get so close to a student Clay ? was he off the previous load ? or have you lost a little weight ? I think they got out before us. The tracking dive went out last and 1/2 mile downwind. The rabbit went off to the side of the jump run but I ended up tracking back towards the DZ. (90 off from the direction of flight of the tracking dive.) I ended up over the students.... Quote Never, and it pisses me off when I see other people do it. Folks who are rolling tend to loose their direction of travel Ummm....if they can't hold a heading they shouldn't be doing it...... Quote There is enough time in that process so if there is somebody above me my intentions will be clear, and they will have time to slide away. Lets see...you are low...someone's on top of you....and you are counting on them being aware enough to "slide away." Sounds like you are putting more faith in them than I would. Barrel rolling and back tracking are an important survival technique. Period. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #22 July 18, 2003 Where did this come from? Okay hookitt, if you do a quick barrel roll, how in the world do you see anything? Quade, Bill, help this old boy out here................ Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #23 July 18, 2003 QuoteWhere did this come from? Okay hookitt, if you do a quick barrel roll, how in the world do you see anything? Quade, Bill, help this old boy out here................ Blues, Are you asking Bill and Quade to help me out? That's very kind of you. To answer your question and this is an honest answer though it sounds other wise.... I look. You can see a whole bunch of sky or people or a person if they are above you. Try this, have some one stand 4o feet away from you and you stand facing away, do a fairly quick turn and then face back the same direction away from them. Did you see the person? If not you weren't looking. So, depending on the skydive, Yes, I'll barrel roll and look. If some one is there, I'll act accordingly. Pm me if you care to follow up on this. CiaoMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #24 July 18, 2003 Im sorry I piss you off, Tom. Ill give you 3 kindey shots at Kim to make up for it. After I track good and hard, I have made it a staple on my jumps, most of which are freefly nowadays, and am very happy with it. I dont lose a heading or much altitude and it makes me feel wqarm and fuzzy. I am confident about my airspace and think personally it works better for me than looking over my shoulders. I think even after looking back down I would dip a shoulder on deployment and I dont like that. I would argue that it is better and more productive for me, but I wont. I will just silently continue (unlike Kim!) See you this weekend, Tom, and stop bending ripcord pins, Hercules! Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #25 July 18, 2003 QuoteDepends on the dive. If you're an efficient tracker and can perform quick barrel rolls, it's a lot quicker than looking over each shoulder. It's a great method. With practice it's quite efficient. Being in my later forties, I've noticed I don't have the flexibility to just look over my back like I used to. I've been experimenting with barrel rolls on solo tracking dives and some small 2 & 3 ways, when I can already see where the other people are tracking off to. As I get better at it, which is perfecting it to a really quick snap roll, I'd probably like to work it into my clearing routine before I flare, wave, and throw. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
