sducoach 0 #26 July 19, 2003 Quote Are you asking Bill and Quade to help me out? That's very kind of you. No Hookitt, me not you! PM'd you back. My offer stands anytime!!!! Just remember.................. Gatoraid!!! Also, simulating on the ground is nothing like a barrel roll in flight. Happens quickly, or you stay "inverted" and look, I guess. But what the heck, I'm just learning to "sit fly"!!!!! Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #27 July 19, 2003 I do not barrel roll because I track flatter than the other jumpers. At breakoff, I turn and track.... and watch the other jumpers fall below me and to the sides. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #28 July 19, 2003 thats means you have the best track in your group, but what about other groups you didnt break off from?? or larger groups that broke off in sequence or 'lost' people before break off?? ideally you dont lose people, but it does happen on occasion____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #29 July 19, 2003 Great offer!! and thanks for the Message. What flavor Gator Aid? TimMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #30 July 19, 2003 And.............anytime Brother! Blues, J.E. James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrose7 0 #31 July 21, 2003 I was under the impression that you are responsible to watch people below you (just as it is the responsiblity of the people above you to watch for you below them.) edited to add: also respsonsibility to watch to the sides of you as well.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP. MaryRose Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #32 July 21, 2003 QuoteI was under the impression that you are responsible to watch people below you (just as it is the responsiblity of the people above you to watch for you below them.) Oh...those are "The rules of the road." BUT....let me show you some video some time of my friend that bounced after a CCT Jackass free fell through his canopy. He landed, unconcious, with 2 cells of his canopy inflated in the Yuma Arizona desert. Broke most of the bones in his body and bounced about 8 ft in the air. I'll take the trouble to barrel role...THANKS! I also know 2 other individuals that have HIT canopies in free fall. They both lived but have the scars to prove it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WayneRATS 0 #33 July 21, 2003 alot to be said for cypres ..------------------------ Can You Ere Me Now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #34 July 21, 2003 Quote alot to be said for cypres . Yep....unfortunately this was quite a while ago and the Cypres wasn't as prevalent as it is today. In spite of my sig line I do support it's use. The risk of a Cypres causing injury or death is so low it's negligible. The chances are many times higher that it will save your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #35 July 21, 2003 Quotethats means you have the best track in your group, but what about other groups you didn't break off from?? or larger groups that broke off in sequence or 'lost' people before break off?? ideally you dont lose people, but it does happen on occasion Where I jump, there are not that many large groups.. on those loads, the group takes almost the whole load, so horizontal separation is not an issue. I look down and make sure I am not over anyone, and I give a good visible wave off and a couple second delay for anyone above me. I trust the people I jump with. I have to. And, if there is someone I don't trust. I make sure to track way clear perp. to jump run right after exit. Quite honestly, with the quickness of a barrel roll, I question the effectiveness. They eyes have to adjust to the brighter sky, refocus for distance and locate a small object. Not to mention figure out distance and angle. I do not think the accuracy necessary is possible under the circumstances. Not to mention it being worth the lost altitude. Where I jump, with the people I jump with, I just do not believe a barrel roll is necessary. However I do practice the skill, and will use it when I jump in situations were it may be necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #36 July 21, 2003 I can send you numerous videos of fast flat tracks with rolls in them... Duh - edited - with on heading performance as well as little forward speed lost... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #37 July 21, 2003 My peeves about barrel rolling during a track: - while you roll, you loose sight of the airspace below you, which is YOUR responsibility to keep track of. - during the roll, which in theory you should do quickly, most people would have a very very hard time telling the difference between having somebody directly above them, or off to the side: its difficult to tell as you have no fixed point of reference; - I don’t care how hot you are, you will loose efficiency in your track if you roll and gain V speed. Simple physics.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #38 July 21, 2003 Quote- I don’t care how hot you are, you will loose efficiency in your track if you roll and gain V speed. Simple physics. There is the internet and theory, and there is real life. Track, Scan during track... Below, to the sides, any where you can see. Bust out a barrel roll after you're certain your lower airspace is clear. Heads happen to turn left and right. I know mine does and I suspect that mine is not the only one. Take a Counter clock wise Barrel roll for instance. (Leading with the right side), Turn your head to the left and begin your barrel roll. Part way over, stop turning your head and look up in the sky. As you finish and are face to earth again, your head will be looking over your right shoulder, then back toward the ground again. Now, if a person tracks blindly from the People he's trying to get away from, then just's busts out a random barrel roll, the point of looking at all is lost. Quite often I've come out of a cluster, and tracked for a while then flipped over and continued to track as I watched my new Tracking partner above me. No directional loss nor altitude loss. The same has gone with a quick barrel roll and seeing the person above me. Since there was a human projectile above me, I sensed that pulling immeadiatly was a bad thing. The key is go out and do some real tracking dives with those who are good at it. You can also get a few people that are not so good at it and BECOME good at it. The worst that will happen is you'll become a better tracker, have some fun, and become a safer skydiver. It works in real life. It can be theorized till the cows come home, or you can just go do it. Note: I don't actually know when the cows come home.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #39 July 21, 2003 QuoteIt works in real life It can. I was on a seven way this weekend, with quite a few lower experience (even lower than me!) level jumpers, some of which I hadn't jumped with before. We broke high (5k), and I turned and tracked, checking left and right quickly to make sure my heading was good relative to the guys next to me... no problems there. But when I looked back down, there was another jumper on the same path as I was, maybe 50 feet lower... I quickly decided that I wasn't going to out track him (he was one of the more experienced on the load with about 250 jumps), so I hit the brakes a bit and started to veer off, and as I was doing this, he cranked out a nice smooth barrel roll, saw me, and veered off in the other direction. We had pretty good seperation when we opened despite this snafu... I talked to him after the jump, to find out what had happened... turns out he and another guy tangeled on breakoff and tumbled for a second, which put him lower and directionally challenged... he happened to pick a heading that was the same as mine, and took off. It's pretty exciting to have someone underneath you tracking along the same line! I saw him with enough time to alter my path, so even if he hadn't seen me, I wasn't going thru his canopy, but his decision to roll and clear the airspace above him, allowing him to see me and veer the other way, gave us lots better seperation than it would have been if it been just me avoiding him... I'm not sure how easily he could have seen me with just a head swivel, as I was above and slightly out in front of him (but he was kicking my ass tracking... I'm pretty sure he'd have caught me and been right under me by pull time!) Maybe I will get booties put on my suit... "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilivan 0 #40 July 21, 2003 I voted "depends...", but there has been a couple times (once on a large 25+ tracking dive, once when a recent A licence graduate followed my group) when my barrel roll revealed someone above me. In both these cases I chose to barrel roll based on the circumstances - I think situational awareness is probably a more important skill/ability to have, then just blindly following the motions of "what you should do"."If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #41 July 21, 2003 Even though I answered "always", I mean it as always when necessary. If I am doing a two-way, answer is "usually no", but I usually track on my back (looking up) anyway. A great habit that I picked up earlier this year! Depending on the size of the jump, I will actually do a barrel-role, from my back - to my back, to see if anyone is underneath me - not above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrose7 0 #42 July 21, 2003 just a question or two. so, you do a barrell roll and see someone above you. Do you then flip back over and keep tracking? and then do another barrell roll to see if they are still there? and if they are, do you keep tracking? do ya turn away from them and maybe screw someone next to you? all of this happens at the end of a dive where there is not much altitude left. I am not anti-barrell roll, I just have a few questions about it's effectiveness.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP. MaryRose Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fundgh 0 #43 July 22, 2003 I would roll, then take immediate evasive actions. OR you could stay on your back, tracking a different direction, then roll and wave and dump. As it was said before...situational awareness is key. That means that you know what altitude you have, your distance from other people, how much time you have to make decisions and react. If you don't think that you have time, don't do it. I personally like to breaka little high, track a safe distance, look around at others and make sure everyone is safe and dump. Be safe, aware, and prepared!...FUN FOR ALL! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #44 July 22, 2003 I voted never. On breakoff I can see everyone who will be tracking in my quadrant and can fairly easily keep track of them all by looking left and right and behind me. Usually people don't get lost buring the dive but if they do they tend to be low and they tend to be fairly easy to keep track of as well. Another thing is that on break off I flatten out as I'm turning away so when I start to track I am already slightly above a lot of people and have a much easier time keeping track of everyone. At the end of my track I give a big wave as I look hard to the left and right (which enables me to see above me as well) and pull.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #45 July 22, 2003 QuoteDo you then flip back over and keep tracking? and then do another barrell roll to see if they are still there? Had this happen a couple times......I usually first check my alti. Just to stock of the situation. Then.....I give them a piece sign to let them know that I know they are there. Then....wait for them to pull. Usually doesn't take long. I woudln't set off in a new direction on your back as now you are entering airspace below you that you haven't cleared. I suppose flipping back over and picking a new direction is OK too but you are kinda starting the tracking process all over again at a lower alti. Not really what I want to do. Depends on how big the dive was I guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #46 July 22, 2003 Just curious. The whole idea of barrel rolling in track is to minimize the possibility of opening when someone is tracking right above you. Perhaps I am thinking wrong, but if someone tracks over my head, it tells me that I lost a lot of altitude after break off. In other words my tracking skills need to be improved. Now the question is should one try to barrel roll after every break off in order to have a better vision of what’s going on in his sector (possibly) or better concentrate on getting more lift and forward speed in order to improve his flat track? And another example related to separation issues: The guy goes low on 10-way skydive. He does his best trying to stay with the group until break off but then tracks poorly. I fly over his head with much greater forward speed leaving him behind. On the ground the guy complains that he had to go lower because I happened to be right above him at his pull altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #47 July 23, 2003 Quote it tells me that I lost a lot of altitude after break off. That's fine for belly fliers. But.....lots of people do hybrids and free fly these days. Levelidity is not always a given. Your method works fine for a 4, 6, 8 way of experienced people belly flying but when it comes to inexperienced people or free flying this is a valuable skill!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #48 July 23, 2003 The few times I've rolled and seen them above me, I actually adjusted my track a bit, checking where I'm going first of course and allowed myself to watch them open before dumping. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #49 July 23, 2003 "...but if someone tracks over my head, it tells me that I lost a lot of altitude after break off." Exactly!!! Learn to flat track better! This is precisley what I thought to myself the few times people have been in airpsace above me. Luckily I'm like 6 foot 1 and a bean pole so I don't have too much trouble flat tracking. Blue ones... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #50 July 23, 2003 Quote"...Luckily I'm like 6 foot 1 and a bean pole so I don't have too much trouble flat tracking. Blue ones... One should never stop improving this skill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
